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Having a hard time dealing with everything

54K views 202 replies 52 participants last post by  MattMatt 
#1 ·
Long time listener, first time caller.

I'll keep the details as focused as I can. The real reason for posting here is partly to vent, and partly to ask for everyone's support. My wife had a PA a long time ago that we have been dealing with for many years. We have finally found the right MC and have been working with that person for a while. After several one-on-one sessions with him, he and I agreed it's time for the truth to come out about what exactly happened in the affair. She's been hiding it for a long time and I know much more went on than she has tried to make me believe. We're at the point now that she basically will not discuss difficult topics unless we're in the presence of the MC.

I'm at the point now that I need to know the truth, and I need to hear her tell me the truth. All of it. All the gory details. MC asked why I need to know. I told him it's not so much that I am trying to satisfy my erotic fantasies or anything like that. I need the mind movies that have been going on to stop. I feel that I'd be better off knowing exactly what happened than imagining what I think happened. And she needs to let it out to set herself free of what she's been holding, and finally ask for forgiveness the right way.

One of the main reasons I know why she got sexual with him is because at one point during the affair, before D-Day, we were in bed and she suggested a position that we had never done before. She called it by a specific name. I played along but thought it was very strange that such an elaborate position she seemed to know so well, yet we never did it before. A week later, we're in bed getting things going, and I played dumb and asked about that position we did the week before. Her eyes lit up and she jumped up and was all about doing it, and she knew exactly what to do, telling me where to go, how to position myself, etc. I immediately knew at that point that something was up. One of the many mind movies I have is of her doing that position with him.

There's plenty of other evidence, like coming home and immediately taking a shower (something she never did), and always answering her cell phone out of breath. I can go on....

I know her well enough that she doesn't do anything halfway, and we don't ever use protection because we don't have to (hysterectomy). I'm more than confident she took that same approach with him.

I hid a lot of these mind movies for a while but after the last few MC sessions, they've all come back to me, and I'm going insane. I guess what bothers me the most is not what they did (which I assume is everything), but the emotion she put into it. She's very escapist - lost in a fantasy world most of the time. She used sex to get what she thought she needed emotionally, and she let herself feel in love so she could pretend to make love to him. The mental imagery of seeing her looking at him lovingly, caressing him, wrapping her legs around him, all while telling him she loves him (which she admitted)... this is just killing me.

Next MC session will be the three of us and while she's not aware of it, this will finally be brought up. I am trying to keep sane until that time, but I really don't know how either of us will react when she finally opens up. This is the last ditch effort before I decide on D. If she can't open up completely, then there's no hope.

I really need your support, and I welcome everyone's thoughts. I'm only describing one part of a very big issue, but this is what's keeping me up at night right now.

Thanks in advance.
 
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#4 ·
If she deliberately holds back and gets defensive in front of the MC then at this point I will have to tell her that it's time to move on. This has been going on for longer than I'd like to admit. But, I know that if she lets go it will be very freeing for her. She has held a lot of her past in and this will be one huge step to help.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Just so people will have the proper background to answer you please give some general details. Such as how long was her affair, when was it discovered and how. Did she blame you? How has she acted since D-day?

Sometimes more information hurts and sometimes it helps. Only you can be the judge of that. The correct thing to do is whatever is best for you.
 
#5 ·
f

Affair was 3 months long. It started 13 years ago right around Thanksgiving and I was suspicious by the beginning of December. I found a journal in her bathroom that she wrote in the form of letters to him. Talk about how bad a husband I was, how she was going to separate from me to be with him, etc. I don't remember any sexual details in the journal though.

At the time she said that although it was wrong, she felt justified, and insisted that I knew that. We've been in counselling and she has expressed remorse and regret over the years, but she still keeps the intimate details to herself, insisting that nothing more than heavy petting went on. I know better. You don't string a 42 year old guy around for 3 months with kisses and heavy petting.
 
#7 ·
This is the last ditch effort before I decide on D. If she can't open up completely, then there's no hope.
The problem your wife has is that she has no idea what detail will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. She may use the excuse that she doesn’t want to hurt you but that’s secondary.

I would rephrase what you said above. That you are getting a divorce for sure and only honesty can save the marriage. Basically that the marriage is lost and what she tells you might save it vs the marriage is safe and what she tells you might end it.

Talk about how bad a husband I was, how she was going to separate from me to be with him, etc.
If you suck why does she want you now? Where is this great OM that she wanted a life with?
 
#9 ·
The problem your wife has is that she has no idea what detail will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. She may use the excuse that she doesn’t want to hurt you but that’s secondary.


You're right. Another excuse is she wants to keep whatever perceived good memory to herself.



I would rephrase what you said above. That you are getting a divorce for sure and only honesty can save the marriage. Basically that the marriage is lost and what she tells you might save it vs the marriage is safe and what she tells you might end it.

Thank you Graywolf. I needed to hear that, because really that's where we're at, although she doesn't know that yet. Basically she thinks if we keep the peace at home and not get into sticky subjects, then life can go on. I've lost the ability to deal with it that way anymore.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Sorry to hear of your struggle, OP. If after 13 years you're still working through this, you must be deeply hurting.

I remember when I was cheated on by my ex-gf of several years, and it hurt badly. I, too, was imagining what she did with others, supposed friends that I had met at parties with her, which may have ended up in bed with her, while we were engaged! I didn't have all of the details about with whom she had been cheating on me with and when, but nonetheless, I would imagine it. Drove me crazy.

I finally realized that if I couldn't move beyond what had happened, and if I didn't stop trying to approximate full closure with only half the facts, I would spend time and energies in a way that was wholly unproductive today and made me no better tomorrow.

By mulling over the situation more, I couldn't erase the past, feel any better in the present, or improve my future. Peace came to me when I stopped dwelling on a very negative moment in my life, and I hope you can find the means to put this behind you. Good luck!
 
#12 ·
its a lose lose situation.

your having trouble getting past it because you don't really trust her. and the mid moves in your head are troubling you so how the hell is knowing she had great sex with someone else and the details of that going to help you get past it.

either forgive her or make an exit plan.
 
#14 ·
I'm having more of a hard time getting past the fact that she's still hiding it than what exactly happened. That being said, if she does open up at the next MC session, I don't know how I'll react. But I still think that hearing the truth will be more beneficial in the end if R is even possible.

If I hear her say "I did x, y and z, and I'm sorry, and I feel horrible about it, please forgive me" then yes, I can forgive her. I know it will take time to process everything, but I can still forgive. If I can't get that from her even in front of a MC, then it's time to end it. I guess I'm trying to prepare myself for both situations.
 
#13 ·
The problem for me would not be what they did - it would be the fact that I was still being lied to after 13 years.
The "I love you' 3 months in I would take as nothing more than infatuation/lust.
I wouldn't believe the heavy petting either given what you've said happened at the time between you two and the fact that she said 'she attacked him.'

In short, I'd feel that I was being taken for a fool, by my life partner of all people.
How can anyone trust a person they know is lying to them. A marriage can never be healthy without trust.

The first thing that must and should happen in R is full disclosure - some BS don't want it but the vast majority, including you, do.
So, you haven't had a proper R right from the beginning. Many MCs don't agree with this. If yours doesn't, get another MC.

I'd tell her that by not disclosing, she's going to destroy the marriage because without it there is no R.
Add that the truth might be hard to tell, but she must know you've assumed the worst these past 13 years anyway, as BS always do.
Tell her that as a BS, you have every right to ask, and as a WS it's the least she owes you for what she put you through.

Finally, tell her to stop disrespecting you and taking you for a fool by lying to you, because lying by non-disclosure is . . . lying.

Stand up for yourself this time, be firm and clear and don't take 'no' for an answer.
That said, if she does disclose, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, you may want to leave the marriage.
That is exactly why full disclosure should have happened 13 years ago so you could decide to R or not.

I'm so sorry you have struggled with this for so long.
Good luck with the MC session.
 
#15 ·
The first thing that must and should happen in R is full disclosure - some BS don't want it but the vast majority, including you, do. So, you haven't had a proper R right from the beginning. Many MCs don't agree with this. If yours doesn't, get another MC.
He agrees. He just wants to make sure I am asking for full disclosure for the right reasons, and not to perpetuate the movies in my head, which, as painful as they are, are also very erotic.

What I'm also preparing for is a fight. I'm going to have to call her out on what I know, and she'll have to answer to it in front of the MC. I'm expecting her to try to get out of it. Her telltale response when she's lying at home is first getting angry, then crying. I don't know how she'll react with another person in the room.
 
#16 ·
I don't think this will help you. After 13 years, I don't think anything will help you. If she says that they did all sorts of kinky stuff and she climaxed 40 times and thought about him with you...how does that closure help you.

I think it's impossible to ever get past any affair. It's not the trust that stays broken, it's the heart. It's up to you if you want to continue to live with someone who did that to you in any circumstance.
 
#18 ·
I don't want the porn version. What I really want to hear is "yes, I had an ongoing sexual relationship with the man." I also want to know if he used protection. Not for the STDs (we've both been tested), but I want to know if she opened herself up that much physically and emotionally to let him do that. I also want to know if the sex position she proposed to me was something she did with him. I need to hear that so I know I'm not completely crazy.

If she divulges more, I'll let her talk until I can't handle any more, but no, it's not about making another porn movie in my head starring my wife and the OM.

I still believe the more she opens up the better she'll be in the end. Experience has taught me that telling the truth can be very freeing.
 
#24 ·
In my humble opinion, your best option is a simple, "Yes, I had sex with him x amount of times." then leave it at that. Getting fine details after 13 years is a bit much. Asking about protection is also okay. But, don't get any more detailed than that.

13 years is a LOOOONG time to stew over something. If you have not forgiven and moved along by now, I doubt you will be able too. You owe it to yourself to simply lay it on the line. Tell her you will let it drop once she finally tells the truth.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 
#26 ·
In my humble opinion, your best option is a simple, "Yes, I had sex with him x amount of times." then leave it at that. Getting fine details after 13 years is a bit much. Asking about protection is also okay. But, don't get any more detailed than that.
Really, that's all I want.

13 years is a LOOOONG time to stew over something. If you have not forgiven and moved along by now, I doubt you will be able too. You owe it to yourself to simply lay it on the line. Tell her you will let it drop once she finally tells the truth.
I have forgiven her to the extent that she's been able to show remorse. When she holds on to something as important as consummating the affair, it's hard to fully forgive. She hasn't shown remorse for the rest because she hasn't owned up to it. But I'm willing to forgive and I want to forgive her if she would stop hiding that one, very important part.
 
#27 ·
Have you thought of what you would do if this doesn't bring you the closure you are looking for? What if there is no closer because the problem is not what she did but how you feel about staying.

This may not be you, so do with it what you will, but I suspect this is really the disconnect for lots of BS who are in the kind of pain like this post reflects. Coming to terms with what the life they have chosen. Not with what their spouse did, I think they get that because logically there is not much to get, they were just selfish. Yet they don't heal.

I think the loss of agency in ones own life is what cause the constant searching. I believe it is the loss of control of the narrative of their own life which causes them to continue to try to regain the control by trying to figure out why and what. Like if they can just figure out the secret it will fix this and give them back control. But it's really just an illusion. I always get a sense of powerlessness in posts similar to this. But the powerlessness doesn't just come from the affair in my opinion, it comes from the feelings of having lost agency because they are trying to have two things. The kind of marriage they once romanticized having with their spouse, which is a dream forever lost. And their spouse. You can't have both.

I wonder if the answer is just accepting that you will never have the faithful wife you expected to have, and what is done is done. In a sense that is the greatest rug sweep, thinking that somehow you can.
 
#29 ·
Have you thought of what you would do if this doesn't bring you the closure you are looking for? What if there is no closer because the problem is not what she did but how you feel about staying.

This may not be you, so do with it what you will, but I suspect this is really the disconnect for lots of BS who are in the kind of pain like this post reflects. Coming to terms with what the life they have chosen. Not with what their spouse did, I think they get that because logically there is not much to get, they were just selfish. Yet they don't heal.
The thought of leaving her is very tempting, just because I'd be able to live my life without the constant question of "what else is going on that I don't know about." This is what I can't handle any more. But then my own personal beliefs and values kick in and the cognitive dissonance comes out in full force. The idea that I married for life and she's broken and it's my job as her husband to help her though it.

I think the loss of agency in ones own life is what cause the constant searching. I believe it is the loss of control of the narrative of their own life which causes them to continue to try to regain the control by trying to figure out why and what. Like if they can just figure out the secret it will fix this and give them back control. But it's really just an illusion. I always get a sense of powerlessness in posts similar to this. But the powerlessness doesn't just come from the affair in my opinion, it comes from the feelings of having lost agency because they are trying to have two things. The kind of marriage they once romanticized having with their spouse, which is a dream forever lost. And their spouse. You can't have both.

I wonder if the answer is just accepting that you will never have the faithful wife you expected to have, and what is done is done. In a sense that is the greatest rug sweep, thinking that somehow you can.
That would be the ultimate denial to my own well being. All in the name of love.
 
#73 ·
Maybe you should print out divorce papers and have them ready. If you're serious then that's actually your next step if she can't be honest. Then present them with the MC and say our next session should be about the resolution of our marriage
The OP should have done this 13 years ago when the lying began.

And for the record, since she's been lying for 13 years, she NEVER had remorse. TRUE remorse isn't lying to someone and taking their secret to the grave with them. You just saw regret - regret that she'd been caught.
 
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#30 ·
Coping,

You have a right to know everything,, one problem is that the OM and your WW have secrets between them that you are not privy to. The intimacy between the OM and WW which excludes you must come to an end. You WW is lying by omission to you still and she knows it.

It very much matters if the OM and your WW did something she never did with you. It very much matters if your WW had passion for the OM she never had for you before or since. These are legitimate questions which your WW should be willing to tell you.

Have your WW write out a timeline of all the details of the affair, then review them and take her to get a polygraph test.

Most of us can come to grips once we have been given the truth. The ultimate thing she can do to make up for her affair is to tell you the truth.

You may need to DNA your children.

I see three main paths here.

1) stay with your WW with no confession, misery for the rest of your life

2) divorce your WW

3) stay with your WW after getting a confession and accepting that you have the detail you need.

Tamat
 
#31 ·
You're her husband, but she broke that contract. At that point you had no obligation to provide the support that a husband should.

That being said, I'm sensing that she needs some reassurance from you in order to make her confession--some sign that you'll stay with her even if the details are very ugly. Maybe you cannot provide that. I think I would find that difficult as well.
 
#32 ·
@Coping the Best I Can

I totally support your decision to find the truth, you deserve it and indeed it will set you and your wife free. Not knowing the truth has affected your healing, for 13 years you have carried this burden and now its important that you let go of it.
To be honest your wife broke all the sacred vows she made to you, she had an affair, destroyed you emotionally, this affected your health, your mental stability, exposed you to STDs etc etc. She was having an open marriage behind your back. The contract of marriage was violated a long time ago, you don't owe her anything to be honest. Its time you made yourself a priority

Yes your wife has bad coping skills,she is broken, yes she needs help but you need help too. Its time you became selfish , the last 13 years you suffered. Is this what marriage is all about? Letting your spouse suffer? I am sure your wife showed a lot of remorse but its for a mistake she committed, what was your fault? Nothing, you were collateral damage. This is unfair to you.

Your wife owes you the truth, to be honest if after 13 years she cannot tell you the truth then she is still being selfish. Her guilt and shame is more important for her than your healing. She is still protecting herself. She is still betraying you, this time by not allowing you to heal. I don't know what decision you will take but I pray you heal with or without your wife.

All the best.
 
#36 ·
Whatever you do, OP, ignore this horrible advice. This poster seems to think that rugsweeping works if you just give it enough time. No, these things need to be brought out into the light of day, hashed over until they are properly dealt with. Yes, people make mistakes. And adults are then held accountable for those mistakes, and must make restitution.
 
#40 ·
from one cheated on husband to another...life is to short. Time to move on regardless.
We are around the same age and it took me a long time to to come to the realization that I deserved better. That once a cheater always a cheater (to some extent anyway), once a liar always a liar.
It is terrible what happened to her but she is a grown ass woman who needs to deal with her issues like an adult and should have had enough respect for you and the marriage to keep her pants on.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is what I wish someone had told me a long time ago.
Good luck and live life for you and your well being.
 
#46 ·
I do like the idea of the written timeline and then the Polly.

And be sure to bring up that what she gave away so freely, she is denying you.

One way out of pain is the D because she told him she loved him and now she is telling you by her actions that she does not
care or love you. No sex and previously pity sex?

And she won't help you with the pain by continuing to l treat you rotten for the last 13 plus years?

why do you want to stay? stop the counseling and go for the D.
 
#50 · (Edited)
#54 ·
Basically she thinks if we keep the peace at home and not get into sticky subjects, then life can go on. I've lost the ability to deal with it that way anymore.
This is exactly my wife's point of view on things right now. My situation is different but very similar. I caught my wife about a year ago texting with another man all day every day. My mistake was that I confronted her about it to so, all I had as evidence was the text log from her phone. She told me it was nothing, just another attorney that she knew who gave her advice on work related things and they became friends and texted about work things, family and life in general. I didn't really buy it but I had nothing else to go on, the texting stopped and it pretty much got swept under the rug.

Fast forward to this past February, I found a suggestive text from a different man on my wife's phone. As much as she did reply to the text, it was very vague and not suggestive in anyway and then she changed topics. Again my emotions got the best of me and I confronted her about it. Again she told me it was nothing, and said it was an unsolicited text that she didn't entertain. But since that confrontation her behavior has just been bizarre to say the least. I have secretly gotten into her phone and gone through everything, including texts with her closest friends, and have found nothing to suggest it was anything more than an unsolicited text and maybe some text flirting.

But there is still that constant question of "What if?" that just burns at me. There have been little things that have sent up red flags even before I found that text, different sexual positions, different technique, and "grooming" more often then before. But still, going back to everything I've gone through and seeing more evidence that proves it never was physical, not remembering any times that she went out somewhere that wasn't verified and no other little oddities in her behavior, I haven't found anything to prove that she ever actually had an affair. But as I had said, recently there have just been some bizarre things that I've found out about that have all been proved harmless but there's still the question of why?

I too am still looking her some really explanation of what happened with both of these men as there's still that gut feeling that she's not telling me the whole truth. I've very seriously considered leaving just because I don't want to live like this anymore, but the two things stopping me are our young son and what if nothing really happened? If I left and there never had been an affair then I basically gave up 15 years of my life because I was paranoid. It's the worst feeling in the world.
 
#59 ·
One very important thing many people forget when it comes to things like texting, facebook, secrecy with phones and all that crap...this isn't a damned criminal court. "Proof" is in the eye of the beholder, and the threshold for something being wrong, out of line, a deal breaker gets to be set where ever you want it to be set. People don't have to be wishy-washy wondering whether is was it or wasn't crossing any lines because they get to define where that line is. I think far too many people use the whole not enough proof, needing more or different evidence as an excuse for not taking actions they deep down know they should take.
 
#68 ·
Wow. That is amazing. She taunted you to cut her loose and you could not, but at least you call it like it was. You've been miserable since. I feel really bad for you. I would simply say that you should paddle.

What I mean is that right now you are just drifting downstream in the miserable canoe (marriage). At first you were afraid to paddle (leave), and now you have the paddle in your hand, but you are still letting her dictate what happens. Paddle my man. Who cares about ow she feels at this point?

I get that you care about this woman, but dude... its time to paddle. There are no magical words or behavior that are going to change 13 years and change. Maybe you need to wait and see for yourself, but that is just more wasted time in the canoe. Paddle like hell.
 
#69 ·
I'm looking at it this way. This IS the last chance, and if the change doesn't happen, dramatically, then I'm done. I've wasted a lot of time, lost a lot of good friendships and most of my adult life stuck with her. I can't go on like this any more. I'm 43. I figure I still have a couple more good decades. I am preparing myself now to give her an ultimatum - to say to her in front of the MC that either these things have to happen, and she commits to helping herself, or we're done. That much I finally have the balls to say. Maybe it's all for nothing, but I have to give it that much.
 
#74 ·
Thanks to everyone for the input. I definitely hear everyone saying how I should have left her years ago but I need to stay in the present, and the situation right now is I'm still her husband.

I am angry at her and the situation but I'm not malicious. I'm not looking for revenge. What I'm looking for is peace in my life and a chance to salvage some personal happiness.

She only works part time and her health makes it difficult to hold a full time job. She hasn't actually looked for one, but if I divorce her, she will have to. While I may be able to let her go now because I don't see things changing, what I can't do is leave her on the streets.

If she's capable of showing true remorse and makes a visible effort towards R, then I will give it one more chance. We've been down this path before and she'll make the visible efforts for about a month and then things start going back to the way they were. If that happens again, this time it's over. That is the ultimatum I will give her when we meet with the MC. Right now, I don't see her being able to do it.

Maybe now I'm starting to understand why I think my life is going to drastically change in the next 6 months...
 
#75 ·
You haven't had sex on three years?
Am I correct on that?

If so, you are ruining your life for no reason. Your wife didn't worry about you when she was cheating....
She can get a job, or she can get on disability.

Stop making excuses on my you won't move on, knowing your wife doesn't love you. You haven't had sex with your wife in three years. That's not going to change unless you leave her and find another woman who loves you.
 
#76 ·
Think about this: She's only still with you because she gained weight and can't attract another man. She cheated on you 13 years ago, showed no remorse, you've had sex with her 0 times in the last 3 years. Why are you still with her?

At this point, knowing more details will just remake the mind movies with 4K technology, but none of that matters anymore.

Your marriage has been over for quite some time.
 
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