Thank you for your honest and supportive insight. I have my second therapy session tonight and I will see how it goes. One clarification...My actual response to my wife was "if I was having an affair, it was a 1 sided non-sexual affair". There was never any reciprocation...it was all in my head....but yes I did own up to my misguided feelings, I worked through them, I understand how and why it happened and I am glad it happened and once the "fog" lifted I saw things clearer than I have seen for over 10 years, I can't explain it any other way. Obviously no one here really knows me or her, but she has come to me and asked me what she can do to help me, and what I need from her. I have told her I don't know, right now I just need space to figure things out. This is difficult for me but hard on her too. It came out of left field for her and she thought we were ok. Kind of like how I thought we were ok before I found her on the cruise with my/our friend! Maybe I am toying with her, I'm not sure? That is one of the things I am addressing in counciling. I seriously have always been somewhat passive - aggressive and have always been a doormat. This is probably 1 of the first times in our marriage that I have stood my ground and it actually feels good. I feel somewhat in control for a change? I can't go back to where we were, and after being with someone for 30 years, I'm not sure where forward is either. I am hoping therapy and seeing what others experience on here will help me make the right decision for me.
Win Win situations are the ones that succeed. Your feeling of being in control is an illusion. Both of you have to get what you want from the relationship, or you have the same lopsided relationship with a different fall guy. I wish you both success.
Win Win situations are the ones that succeed. Your feeling of being in control is an illusion. Both of you have to get what you want from the relationship, or you have the same lopsided relationship with a different fall guy. I wish you both success.
Still sleeping in a separate room and had 2 weeks of therapy. I am actually looking forward to week 3 and would go 2 times a week if I could afford it. I think it will help me.
Last night we went out together for St. Patty's Day to watch a friends band. After a few pints of light beer and a shot, I come out of the bathroom and she was talking with 2 guys I didn't know. Both men and women gravitate to her and she usually meets several new people or couples when we are out and often ends the night with the other women saying we need to get together again sometime, this was fun. She was trying to show the guy how to spin when dancing (which is a very simple move that pretty much anyone can do without instruction). I sit down as I watch her grab his hands trying to spin him around and I'm thinking here we go...... After about 10 or 15 minutes she is introducing this guy to me and everyone at our table and she sits down.
After awhile everyone was dancing so she got up to dance and of course this same young guy was getting drunk out of his mind and he heads right towards her to dance. He went to put his hands on her and she looked somewhat freaked out and came back to sit down. I said nothing, I just sat back to watch the "situation" she created for herself unfold. Every time she got up, he would head for her and she'd sit back down! I finally said "I thought you wanted to dance, why don't you"? She said that's ok...then she asked if I wanted to dance. I went up and danced a few songs and wasn't really feeling it, so I sat back down. She tried dancing but this same guy kept trying to move in on her and the girl she was dancing with and she was obviously moving to avoid him. She finally came back to the table. Fortunately we stopped drinking earlier or I'm sure it would have been different and I would have stepped in?
Anyway her friend got these large pink beads from the singer in the band (one of our friends) and he said these are the only one's like this in here so hang onto them. Probably an hour later, my wife is standing up talking to another guy we don't know right behind me and she shows me her matching pink beads he gave her! I said, "you didn't just ask that guy for those beads did you"??? She said yeah.....they were told her friend had the only pink beads and these matched so she wanted them so her and her friend would have matching beads, so she explained this to the guy and he gave them to her. I just said...someone has something you don't and you just have to have it huh?
I was thinking to myself, I go into a bar where we are with our friends and I catch **** if I say hi to the wrong girl, or if I talk to someone too long, and she talks to strangers who are drunk and ask guys she doesn't even know for beads and it's ok? This is bullsh*t!!! And my mood goes south! I was just somewhat quiet after that until we left. On the way home I said " I saw what happened tonight with the young drunk guy who kept trying to get by you on the dance floor, you know you brought that all on yourself tonight don't you?" She said what are you talking about...and I explained what I had observed when I came out of the bathroom and that it took her more than 10 or 15 minutes before she even realized I was just sitting there when she decided to introduce her new friend to our table". She said she was saying hi to a girl at that table and the girl introduced her to everyone and her and the guy started talking so she thought she should introduce him. I told her I was not happy and that she doesn't need to be grabbing someones hands to spin them around or asking drunken strangers for beads. Of course she turned it all around and yelled at me saying I was the one who decided to leave our bedroom and she is not going to go back to where she was not able to be herself. She is going to be herself and have fun! I said some things never change. You get mad at me and I apologize...I get mad at you and you turn it around and get mad back at me and in the past I would still apologize...those days are gone! She said you don't need to apologize!
Last night was an "aha moment" for me, some things just never do change! I think our problem all along has been boundary issues...I have to have them, she makes her own.... I can't do this anymore. As sad as it is, I am trying to keep something together that simply doesn't work! She is a fun, beautiful, and an awesome person....but I am to insecure to handle her outgoing nature after what happened in our past. I on the other hand want to be more outgoing, but I can't do that around her without feeling uncomfortable and creating more drama that I don't want or need. I now realize the pattern needs to be broken and I need to initiate the change... to be continued!
From what I see, you still care deeply for your wife but you no longer desire her sexually ever since she had her affair. You are still hurting because you chose to rug swept her affair instead of dealing with it, as you should have, after it concluded. To compound this, your wife's actions to turn the tables, do little to help you recover and wish to continue with the marriage.
You must make a choice. Continue living in a loveless marriage and run the risk that your wife will cheat on you again when the opportunity presents itself to her. Or you can choose to end your marriage once and for all in order for you to emotionally recover and move on with your life. Which of the two shall it be?
I appreciate your wisdom and incite... Give me a month and I believe i will know. Believe it or not, after all this i think I want to make things work, then we go out for a night and I realize there are probably too many layers on this onion to ever find a way to move on together without rug sweeping everything and starting clean. I can't do that, and she can only do it selectively....meaning i don't bring up her past, but mine will always be there... I don't see this working
I know we can only glean so much from any thread, probably only a partial understanding of what is really going on, even though you appear to try real hard to show your wife's point of view. Still, your situation is really very complex. I think that your mind is circling around a truth, but unable to see it because you are not sure what you are looking for. In my opinion, by you being railroaded into forgiving without even coming to terms with her betrayal, it made it harder for you to see the truth that she is declaring loudly right now. Look at her response when you only talk to another woman. Look at how she flips on a dime and unloads such cruel words.
You can hang on forever and try to prove that there is some depth to her real love for you. Maybe you're hoping that these periods where she shows her true self through jealousy and contempt for you are just 'not really who she is', but I suspect that you'll see more of it as time passes. She got what she wanted at the time of the affair - her experiencing the best of both worlds. Soon, I can't help but wonder if she'll say that there's just too much unforgiveness in your heart, and how could any woman live with that?
I'm afraid that you are finding what many other men on this site also find when they instinctively sweep their wife's betrayal under the rug, or the women who do the same when their husband cheats. Your wife can't even forgive you for making eye contact with another woman. She can't tolerate having to experience consequences for her betrayal, feeling almost justified now that the years have passed. Just answer one simple question for yourself - would she be capable of giving so deeply to you that she would be able to grant the forgiveness that she expected of you? If you went on that cruise and carried on a pretend marriage with another woman, would she have considered forgiveness if she had other financial means? I'm afraid that you are facing a very simple question - you saw your marriage as a two person journey, one where you carried her when she was weak. Did she? She's giving very little indication that she wouldn't have just left you by the wayside at any time, even now. That's why I feel so sad for some of the ones who come here. Many are on a one man marriage journey with a partner who will simply cast them aside if things get tough, and they're too afraid to ask the questions that you are asking. And yes, there are women, many women, who view marriage just like you do.
I (unfortunately) feel you have hit the proverbial nail on the head! And the answer to your question (bold and underlined)....would be a big fat NO!!! We have talked about it. She can't even rug sweep or let go of what she calls my EA. Again, I have said if it was an EA, it was a 1 sided, non-sexual EA because there was no reciprocation and it was not about "hooking up".... it was a friend who understood my situation and on occasion just listened. Since I started Therapy and have someone else to talk to about things I realized that was what it was....just support and therapy. I am glad I started this, and I realize this is not all her or me...We both have our issues, but I am working on me.
Last night we went out together for St. Patty's Day to watch a friends band. After a few pints of light beer and a shot, I come out of the bathroom and she was talking with 2 guys I didn't know. Both men and women gravitate to her and she usually meets several new people or couples when we are out and often ends the night with the other women saying we need to get together again sometime, this was fun. She was trying to show the guy how to spin when dancing (which is a very simple move that pretty much anyone can do without instruction). I sit down as I watch her grab his hands trying to spin him around and I'm thinking here we go...... After about 10 or 15 minutes she is introducing this guy to me and everyone at our table and she sits down.
Lack of social boundaries is a trait that many waywards must share. My wife is exactly the same as yours. People can sense boundaries, and when a person has none, they attract hounddogs by the pack, especially where there is alcohol involved.
After my wife and reconciled the first time, we would go out clubbing. I would be at the bar or coming out of the restroom and there she would be, on the dancefloor, dancing away with some horny drunken chulo with his hands on her hips and butt. She didn't mind at all, in fact she'd just keep laughing and flirting. Then on the drive home we would have the big fight, she would accuse me of overreacting and we would go the whole next day without speaking to each other. The first go-round with her affair and the fallout afterwards taught her nothing. I should have divorced her back then.
I don't know how you and your wife are going to get past this. My thought is the two of you should cool it with the honky-tonkin' and find some other social outlet. Any place that has horny men and lots of booze is a bad place for a married woman whose marriage is on the rocks to be. Can't believe this has not occured to her.
Lack of social boundaries is a trait that many waywards must share. My wife is exactly the same as yours. People can sense boundaries, and when a person has none, they attract hounddogs by the pack, especially where there is alcohol involved.
After my wife and reconciled the first time, we would go out clubbing. I would be at the bar or coming out of the restroom and there she would be, on the dancefloor, dancing away with some horny drunken chulo with his hands on her hips and butt. She didn't mind at all, in fact she'd just keep laughing and flirting. Then on the drive home we would have the big fight, she would accuse me of overreacting and we would go the whole next day without speaking to each other. The first go-round with her affair and the fallout afterwards taught her nothing. I should have divorced her back then.
I don't know how you and your wife are going to get past this. My thought is the two of you should cool it with the honky-tonkin' and find some other social outlet. Any place that has horny men and lots of booze is a bad place for a married woman whose marriage is on the rocks to be. Can't believe this has not occured to her.
But that is the mindset of a wayward is it not?
I would agree with you that they shouldn't go to places where this type of behavior can occur but somehow I don't think struggling's wife would agree to do that. After all she said she wants to be herself. If I were struggling I would ask her what she's sees herself being.
Struggling, 11 years ago you rugswept because you received poor advice from a MC. However, now you're torturing yourself for no good reason. You refuse to put your foot down and assert your rights as a husband and a man. And you are reluctant to pull the plug and find someone who can truly make you happy. I really feel bad that you are going through all this but somehow I feel like it really isn't necessary. Mori is right. You have to make a choice. This limbo you are keeping yourself in is destroying your soul.
In the various situations behind this thread, you've seen some dramatic differences in how she views you versus how she views herself. Seems pretty obvious that the rules that she holds you to don't apply to her. In particular, I would consider using the dance as a case study, and explain how such an attitude must've led her to her affair years ago, but her 'rules' for you make it impossible. My opinion? Ask her if she will energetically accept those same expectations for herself forever, and get real reconcialation? Ask her if she would be willing to spell out the wrong in acting as she did with these men, and describe every situation as you do so. My point, and I'm sorry to suggest so, is that she has set herself and her needs at a higher level than your own. I suspect that her affair, and the role you were forced to accept after this, only cemented it. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be able to get to know these men superficially, but only suggesting that you have finally seen what the real problem is in the relationship. The freedom that she has granted herself will make it hard for you to ever sense that she is as committed to you and the marriage as you are.
In other words, she wants you to always be forcused on her. For herself, though, she feels trapped by that same devotion. I do think it is possible to find a healthy level of mutual devotion. She first has to really see it as it is, though. Keep in mind that she could've used this night for reconciliation with you. When a husband has taken the first step towards divorce, you'd almost expect her to be glued to your side. I wonder why she chose a different approach?
I switched along time ago to S4E and the last post on here was almost 14 months ago! I just re-read all of this and your comments all make so much more sense to me now! We have been sleeping in separate rooms for about 9 weeks now (this time). We do go out on occasion but not too often as each time she seems to get her hopes up and I have to push back. I have told her I need to move out for awhile so I can base my decision on what is best for me instead of basing it on feeling guilty. She believes that once I move out, I will not come back and it will be over. I tell her that if that is what happens, then that is what's meant to be. This has been a long and hard journey, but I can't sit on this fence any longer - it's too painful. We have mutual friends who keep asking if we want to go on motorcycle rides.. I have been saying no, but her standard answer is if I'm going she will ride on the back with me. She has her own bike that she used to ride, I'm guessing she will either need to start riding it again, or find another backseat. I can't get pulled back in. Her birthday is coming up in about a month and she asked about a ride that day too. I believe it's time for me to fly...
Honestly, the only way those triggers will ever go away is if you end your marriage. I'm not advocating divorce by all means, but in your case, it's been 11 years of pain and suffering, and it doesn't seem like it's getting any better. Why do you stay, you talked about leaving a long time ago in your old thread?? what keeps you there? and if you wish things could be different, then you either work on it and get a really good therapist, or leave. You're in limbo, and it's not healthy.
Only a few marriages can make it through infidility, and even then I question if they are really happy, and when they say their marriage is stronger, I'm not so sure I can believe it. I'm not cynical at all, just a realist.
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Re: Do triggers and memories ever go away? 
I (unfortunately) feel you have hit the proverbial nail on the head! And the answer to your question (bold and underlined)....would be a big fat NO!!! We have talked about it. She can't even rug sweep or let go of what she calls my EA. Again, I have said if it was an EA, it was a 1 sided, non-sexual EA because there was no reciprocation and it was not about "hooking up".... it was a friend who understood my situation and on occasion just listened. Since I started Therapy and have someone else to talk to about things I realized that was what it was....just support and therapy. I am glad I started this, and I realize this is not all her or me...We both have our issues, but I am working on me.
