Starting a new thread (I seem to make new threads at each stage of dealing with this marriage-destruction's fallout); made sense of the 180 -- it's for me, not for him. Recognizing that I have 3 choices and the agency to make those choices: rug-sweep and suffer, limbo until I find a decision, or cut my losses now. Not yet able to let go into D (still love him), nowhere near ready for R (if even possible given our e-abusive dysfunction; we both need to fix ourselves), and so I'm trying to navigate limbo. That's my new concern.
WH & I have been together 7.5 years, 6 years in an LDR, 1 year married, .5 years separated but in sporadic contact. He became emotionally abusive; it seems to be the result of serious secret cheating and the onset of an uncontrolled illness. Family intervention and expose went badly. We ended up separated, though I would have preferred MC and I think he would have, too. He's threatening violence now. Don't know if he means it or is messing with my head. Don't know if I want out or want to wait for him to come to his senses, or if he ever will. Don't know if this is salvageable; depends on if we can work out our separate issues and change and become different people. I guess. He claims he's trying to control his anger, admits no wrongdoing. I'm seeing a therapist.
We were no contact until recently when we had a handful of email exchanges -- he tried to explain that he cared, but isn't coming clean. Is an apology so much to ask for? I understand what others have said, that if he cared, he'd make things right by being remorseful and showing me he cares rather than trying to bully me into believing he's innocent of his bad behavior. I guess I'm still hoping that he will eventually man up and be honest and then we can either R or D after we talk about what happened and why.
6 months since DDay; shock's finally wearing off. Letting go doesn't mean just not reaching out, it means actually letting go of hope…don't know how to, though. It's not in me to give up on those I love. I miss him every day. I look like I'm doing fine, but every day is a struggle and I hate my own emotional weakness and inability to stop caring. I'm trying to finish my degree this semester and maybe when I'm done I'll feel strong enough to make some decisions regardless of whether or not he's still denying.
So, still in limbo…but recognizing that I can't wait in limbo forever. Recognizing that this is a choice.
As someone else who has been in a long term emotionally/verbally abusive relationship (and on top of that he is also now unfaithful), I wonder how much more a person can take.
Personally I know that I continued this for so long because it wears you down and I had low self esteem. You start to believe the stuff they say and the put downs. It is all about control, it makes them feel better about themselves and their situation.
I look back at all these years and see a cycle. He says something horrible, I tell him he is out of order, he says sorry, I forgive him and then he does the same xxx amount of time later and so on. Unless someone makes some serious changes, such as long term therapy then you can expect future behaviour to be exactly the same.
I know you say 'its not in me to give up on those I love'. Don't give so much though that you end up losing yourself and doing irreparable damage to your soul. He isn't doing his utmost for you, so why do it for him? You are worth so much more. Respect yourself.
WH & I have been together 7.5 years, 6 years in an LDR, 1 year married, .5 years separated but in sporadic contact. He became emotionally abusive; it seems to be the result of serious secret cheating and the onset of an uncontrolled illness. He's threatening violence now. Don't know if he means it or is messing with my head.
Run, Forrest, run.
Abuse is no joke. Get out while you can.
Idk who long you've been in limbo but I think it's been a significant amount of time. If he wanted to work things out, he would.
I understand limbo and indecision, and fully support the concept of not giving up on someone, but the threat of violence after long-term emotional abuse combined with not even owning up to it suggests a real dead-end to me.
Like jen said, respect yourself.
There's enough work for you to do on that alone to take all your focus on missing whatever it is or was about him you might miss.
With real self-respect will come the ability to be with someone worthy of your love, time, patience, and attention.
Thanks everyone, for your candor. I think I'm having a difficult times coming to terms with the manipulative and emotionally abusive aspects of our dysfunction because the good was so very good, which makes this less than clear-cut for me.
I'm noticing a lot of comments about self-respect and I appreciate the supportive angle from which that comes, but I think I am missing something. I think I'm having a hard time letting go of my feelings of hope or hope that he will eventually make this right because I'm not seeing how my choice to stay in limbo is indicative of lack of self-respect. I can see how it would be lack of self-respect to allow him to continue treating me this way, but we are separated and that's not happening. I just see his behavior as misplaced anger that he needs to control, but...why am I not respecting myself by hoping he will honor his commitment and prove that he is who he claims he is once the dust settles?
I know this sounds foolish and stupid and I'm not trying to be contrary. The way things fell apart was just such a mess and things got really out of hand with my family, also. I lost my family of origin and my family of marriage all at once, but my own feelings and wishes and agency got discarded in the process by everyone else, so I'm finding that I'm very confused about what I want, how I'm interpreting things, and whether or not I'm just over-reacting to his behavior (which he believes). I know that we had a lot of problems, but, honestly, I thought that the good outweighed the bad -- except that the bad was bad enough that it needed to be addressed and things put on hold in the meantime.
Is it possible that I'm just too "sensitive" and reacting too strongly to discord between us that was mostly normal? Is this all my fault? This sounds like rug-sweeping. I know I deserve better treatment, but I can't help wishing it would be better treatment from him because he understands, finally.
I know I sound a little foolish, but....why is this considered a lack of self-respect rather than a willingness to compromise? I'm overly fond of the sentiment that the reed that bends doesn't break, but I fear that I'm hopelessly bent out of shape from bending for so many people's wishes for so long and I am not sure I know how to stand straight anymore. I loved him and still do and I miss him every day (the good things, not the bad things), and I don't understand why he would have gone to such lengths through such obstacles to make things work with me, only to just discard and deceive me like this once we got married. It makes me feel like I'm just being too unforgiving....I know this all sounds wrong. Can you guys give me some insight into this aspect?
Things have gotten so out of hand that I can't see how it would ever leave limbo into R. He's making no effort at all. I am not making an effort because I think it should be him earning it if he wants a chance again. More than I'm mad at him, I miss him and what I thought we had. And, I feel completely lost most of the time and....like a spool of thread that's been unraveled and is now in tangled knots all over the floor.
Great question about how emotional abuse relates to self-respect.
I'm not expert apart from personal experience but will try to explain. Each time someone bullies you, puts you down or threatens you etc, you lose a little bit of your self respect and self esteem. You know that what they are saying wrong, yet you reason with it and have internal battles thinking - well hey, I love this guy and I think he loves me so he wouldn't say anything to deliberately hurt me right? But inside, you know deep down that your core values are telling you the situation is very wrong, yet you continue to stay, or bargain with him hoping that he will eventually understand that he is hurting you. That is why you start to lose your self esteem because the other person is not respecting you.
Compromise is great in a healthy relationship. Think about what compromises your partner has made in an attempt to heal your relationship. Has he made any at all - is he giving his all to try to understand why he is acting the way he is, like therapy? There is no excuse for emotional abuse or threats, not ever. Your reaction to his behaviour is normal and healthy (you are not over-reacting, this is his way of not owning his behaviour by telling you it is your problem).
This link explains about self respect/emotional abuse better than I can:-
I've just spent a large part of my day reading through all your posts from inception. thank you for so eloquently writing everything I have been feeling, but have been unable to verbalise adequately. It really helps hearing it from some one else's perspective.
I don't have any advice for you, I just wanted to share my story with you so that you know someone else is going through this too. Sorry if it's too long & boring.
I'm sorry you're struggling with the limbo- the logical part of you thinks that you should just get it over with, but then the other part thinks that by doing this YOU will be responsible for the final nail in the coffin (and no one wants that honour in a relationship).
I too was/ am a fiercely independant woman who had to carve out this special place for her H, but once I did that he took pride of place in my heart. Achievements were so much sweeter when shared with him. Disappointments didn't seem as sad. Then suddenly everything that you believed to be true is turned on it's head in an instant.
We know each other for 12 years, married for 5. Early 30's, no kids. Best friends. I pulled away from many friends once things became serious (he fulfilled that friendhip need that I had, so I no longer felt the need to nurture friendships outside of the relationship). I feel really dumb for doing that now. He cheated on me with 2 other people when we first met, but we were 18 years old (age is not an excuse though but I felt that he was young & needed to get it out of his system). Since then he has proven to be completely trustworthy & reliable.
Began having some boundary issue with his parents. Got quite intense late last year. I was unhappy because he wouldn't enforce boundaries with them & I didn't like their subtle underminning of me etc. We have been working on that. Then I accidently discovered a chat between him & an ex on his phone. Nothing sexually explicit but very flirtatious. He tried to downplay it & accused me of being insecure, jealous, controlling etc. I am not by nature a jealous person. Never have been. Then discovered a seceret facebook account that has been around for the last 4 years of our marriage. Been used to contact exs & weird friends that are not known to the marriage. No marital status or mention of a W ever.
I understand that there was no PA involved, but the lies involved for the duration of my marriage, have left me reeling. Just because he didn't cosumate the relationship with the ex, doesn't mean that it wasn't an affair. If she was in the same country as us, I have no doubt that it would have been more than just talking.
He has not had the decency of admitting anything or apologising for it. Our intervention was similar to yours- with the family involvement. Instead of him admitting fault, he became arrogant, rude & downright disrespectful. I regret involving his family. I don't believe they were of any help to the situation. Instead they bought into his BS (even though it was crystal clear that he was lying). Now I'm the bad guy. The crazy. The psychotic who over reacted.
Seperated for 1 month. He hasn't tried to contact me at all. I've gotten an email blaming me and another trivialising this whole situation and that's it. He was more concerned about what his family though about him than about what DDay did to me. He left immediately after, went to their place to smooth things over with them. To he!! with me. After all, who am I- no one, just his W. His ego and the way his family perceive him were more important.
So I guess the questions to answer are, how long am I going to wait for him to admit the "truth"? How much of the "truth" will he be willing to share? How much of that "truth" do I actually want to hear? And finally how could I be such a bad judge of character that I didn't see this mean, vindictive, nasty person hiding inside him for all these years? I've known him practically my entire adult life, yet it seems that I never really knew him at all...
Good luck with your situation and thanks once again, whether you realised it or not, your sharing has helped someone.
People with abundant self-respect do not tolerate, much less pine away for someone who is abusive and threatens violence (whether you think he 'means it' or not, depending on how specific and what threats there were in some places this itself is a crime), not even trying for 1/2 a year or more, taking no accountability and lying to you about his actions and feelings.
What you need to figure out is, Why that type of person is not you. Please don't mix "we've had some issues, but I love him" with "he can abuse me and I will tolerate it".
Take it another step further and think about your image of people who are really "abused" yet stay in the relationship... waiting, waiting, waiting for that person to 'change' or to show them the love that the abused person 'knows' is there deep inside. When you step away and look objectively, you cannot understand the abused person's lack of self-esteem being the primary reason they do not stand up and say "No."
Not saying that is you, but you youself used the term 'abuse' and spelled out a situation that from out here looks like something many people here would run away from quickly. Only you know and can judge how 'abusive' he is, what you feel toward him, and what your own tolerance and limits are.
We ended up separated, though I would have preferred MC and I think he would have, too. I'm seeing a therapist.
I guess I'm still hoping that he will eventually man up and be honest and then we can either R or D after we talk about what happened and why.
6 months since DDay; shock's finally wearing off. Letting go doesn't mean just not reaching out, it means actually letting go of hope…don't know how to, though. It's not in me to give up on those I love. I miss him every day. I look like I'm doing fine, but every day is a struggle and I hate my own emotional weakness and inability to stop caring. I'm trying to finish my degree this semester and maybe when I'm done I'll feel strong enough to make some decisions regardless of whether or not he's still denying.
So, still in limbo…but recognizing that I can't wait in limbo forever. Recognizing that this is a choice.
I totally understand all of the bolded above! When you figure out the thing about hope let me know(not that I want/ready to yet)! I know my H doesn't have any hope for us... but I have to because of all the kids/history but I know it would be so healthy for me if I could my support system is getting weary (I think)... I think more like I have faith in "US" rather than hope... but I KNOW that in order for any kind of R he will have to make some changes just as I would.
Jen -- Thank You for the link. I'll look up some resources about self-respect and bullying. I guess I didn't see it or didn't want to see it, but my husband is a bully a lot of the time; sometimes even when he' just being nice he's really pushy and controlling and he doesn't even see it so there's no way to talk to him about changing the problem because it isn't a problem to him. I think that maybe I've been bullied by my family my whole life and just excused it because they have big personalities and don't mean it that way and I'm a bit of a pushover and also because I love them and also because I didn't realize the toxicity in our family dynamic until now, just saw myself as a deficient and problematic nuisance in most circumstances. I thought things would be different with my WH, but, he turned out to be really controlling and manipulative in ways I never expected or detected during out many years together before marriage. His angry words and threats are not sitting well with me. I've been putting my own feelings on hold long enough for him to get his temper under control, but…..after 6 months of waiting on his rage to subside while ignoring his insults and blameshifts and gaslighting, isn't it time yet for me to be angry about his cheating and abuse and violation of my family's privacy and trust? I thought I'd wait till the dust cleared to make sense of things and walk toward either R or D with dignity and understanding between us, but I'm not sure what to feel now. If it's taken him this long to even consider owning up to his behavior and wrongdoing (which he hasn't yet done), then I don't see how he will ever make the kind of changes in his own actions and life that would make our relationship safe. I have lost trust and faith in him. He has failed me in every way (except that I am genuinely delighted in who he is when he isn't being hurtful). I'm now going through a major crisis in my life and I am going through it alone because the person who was supposed to be there for me chose to be unreliable and immature and petty -- after betraying me so completely. I saw so much in him….was I just seeing what I wanted to? Just the tip of the iceberg while the rest of him was beneath the surface? I am so disappointed by him….and I just kept hoping that he would fix it, but….now I wonder if he would be able to, even if he tried, which he isn't doing. I just find myself being really really sad because…I guess he just isn't who I thought he was. I don't really know what a healthy relationship is like in practice, just in theory, I think. I'm trying to do what would be logical and healthy, but it's not working…
blissful -- I'm sorry to hear you're going through something similar, but glad that my words are in some way helpful to you. Thank you for sharing your story. I'll say more in a bit, but am short on time at the moment.
2xloser -- You've raised some important questions that I will need to think about. Thank you. "Abuse" is a difficult term for me because of various experiences I've had in my own life that make it hard for me to acknowledge when people are crossing a line and when I deserve it or don't. Three different therapists have characterized our relationship as emotionally abusive. Looking at the descriptions, it seems like it fits. But I have a hard time calling it abuse, seeing him as an abuser; I can understand why he does what he does and that it doesn't have to do with me but his own anger and I let go if it or I tend to see it as a failure on my part to be good enough to warrant better treatment from him or self-restraint on his part or to inspire better behavior in him. I know he loves me. I also know he doesn't intend to his behavior to be harmful or malicious, just that he is immature in some ways. I know that I can't base a relationship on what we're like in our best moments if our worst moments tear things apart. I know this is problematic, but, I'm struggling with this. I don't like accepting the term "abuse", even if it seems to fit, and so I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that what he did was a betrayal and what he's doing is abusive and that I don't have to allow it. I must sound incredibly foolish or ridiculous to you, but I am an educated and generally self-confident woman. However, I've been treated badly by a lot of people in my life and I haven't yet got the hang of knowing when someone else has stepped over the line because I don't know if I'm just being too sensitive or reactionary or something. It's seems that I've been traumatized by some things in my life that have made boundaries really complicated for me. It's not that I don't respect myself, just that I can't really tell when it isn't my place to accept blame and responsibility because I'm used to just putting when I really want or need or feel to the side in order to take care of what other people need. I see endurance as strength and resistance as weakness or inability to adapt and it's damaging me and making it hard for me to make sense of this. I used to be independent, self-possessed, strong, confident, dynamic…I don't know where those parts of me have gone.
Mamatomany -- I'm finding that hope is both good and bad and causes me a lot of surprising internal conflict. It's tough to know what to hold on to and what to let go of when our relationships become foundational aspects of our lives, isn't it?
ji've been putting my own feelings on hold long enough for him to get his temper under control, but…..after 6 months of waiting on his rage to subside while ignoring his insults and blameshifts and gaslighting, isn't it time yet for me to be angry about his cheating and abuse and violation of my family's privacy and trust?
I'm still sad, today, but....I'm actually angry, too, and disgusted and disappointed. His behavior has been so immature, so vulgar, and I expected better from him; he promised me better. Whether his reason was cake-eating, using me, falling out of love, ending up with me when he only intended me as a back-up plan and then being resentful, I just wish he'd own up to it and tell me so that I could just understand and get over it. We had so much good together, so why would he corrupt the core? We fought for years to make our life together happen, so why would he destroy it all for worthless thrills? I just don't understand.
And now, I'm going through some really difficult things...which I believe he knows about, the kind of things that you set aside differences to be supportive about if you care for someone at all, but he hasn't shown any sort of gesture at all in the ways that matter to me and that feels more like indifference than love; he is only interested in winning the fight he is fighting so he doesn't have to face what he's done and his comments are either sarcastic and passive aggressive or woefully inadequate if they are meant to indicate sincerity. I think this hurts most of all. After all this time, I don't know if I even want to wait for him to try and fix it. I don't think he will do what it takes to fix things or even if things are fixable...and I feel myself closing up and hardening my heart to him, which hurts, too.
I kept wondering if this was my fault, or my misunderstanding, because he kept blaming me, because I do love him, but...I think he just doesn't want to be exposed as an immature idiot and is gas-lighting. I just can't make sense of why he would do all of this to me. I trusted him. He really behaved quite badly. I'm starting to feel upset about the wrongness of it and the worse wrongness of his response when caught....I'd forgive him if he expressed remorse and committed fully and treated me right, but....I don't think he feels bad and I don't think he'll make any compromises....and I don't think that a person who loves another person would behave this way....I feel like such a jerk saying these things, doubting him, but....he has shown himself to be unreliable and untrustworthy and he has failed me and he doesn't seem to be making an effort to change that....so I guess I don't really matter to him, at the end of the day....
Drose---- someone can only emotionally abuse you, if you need them emotionally. I spent a long time blaming my H for what was wrong in my life. It got me nowhere.
Then one day I just woke up. I stopped asking why he didn't give me what I needed----started asking why I would stay with someone who blamed me for everything that was going wrong....hmmmmmm.....very interesting, isn't it?
Why do we put up with the disrespect? I kept asking this question, it kept me stuck. Was it childhood, self-esteem issues, fear, love, WHO CARES ? ! I finally said, who cares why??
When you come upon a man who is bleeding out from a wound....you don't say, "How did this happen?" "Who caused this wound?" "How long has this wound been here?" You just do all you can to stop the bleeding.
desert-rose, I feel terrible for you; I understand the pain and the struggle you are enduring right now realizing this person as truly let you down, that he values his own shallow self-perceptions above what it is doing to you. And I am sorry.
You will get through this. You will come to realize how even if he suddenly did a turnaround and gave you the lip service of words you so badly want to hear right now, your eyes are being opened to who and what he truly is -- and how that doesn't really fit with what you need.
Yet even now through all that's happened, you'd "forgive him if he expressed remorse and committed fully and treated me right".... ask yourself if this is a person who is capable of treatng you right. Because you deserve to have that earned faith in whomever you are with -- not have it pushed back in your face to make you so disappointed.
I do hope you are getting some counseling for yourself -- good luck to you.
My youngest sister was in an abusive relationship. Her husband was a body builder and was using steroids and became abusive, physically, verbally and emotionally. She would not leave him because she loved him. My sister got cancer. He became even more abusive. She finally filed for divorce because she had to take care of herself in facing death. He got everything, money, a new truck, and alimoney (he was unemployed). My sister died while I was in Iraq. Her last two years without her husband were happy and full of hope even as she faced death.
They say that love covers a multitude of sins and behaviors and love endures all things, but your love for your husband is hurting you. I am not a person who favors divorse but in cases of abuse you need to leave him. You need to put things in place in your life where he can no longer abuse you.
Hope can be misguided as there is false hope. We hope to end world hunger but we don't. The best we can do is send money to organizations that feed the poor or give food to our local food banks. But ending world hunger is impossible it is a hopeless concept. I see your husband as hopeless.
People who stay in abusive relationships do so for many reasons and I feel poorly for folks that stay because it is a living hel*.
Please continue with your path of education and self healing and leave him behind. You only have one life to live and you do not deserve this.
__________________
This kind of cosmic dumbassery occupies a temporal plane of ineptitude and lack of reason so profound a Zen master could spend a lifetime meditating upon its philosophical consequences.”
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Navigating Limbo 
