iheartlife

First, I am so sorry I didn't respond to you earlier. I think I read your post on my phone and couldn't give you a proper response. Then your thread fell off the main page.

Second, I have some questions for you. A few pages back, you mentioned that it looks like there were two women, a co-worker(?) and an old GF that he was to meet up with at a reunion.

Have you exposed this affair to anyone? His family? The two women to each other? Their husbands?

Does he still have contact with the co-worker via work?

Now to respond to your post:

Taking responsibility for the stupid choice of entering an affair is not the same thing as taking responsibility for the state of the marriage. If all he is owning up to is that he was wrong to have an affair and he refused to blame that choice on you, then he is (in words at least) expressing proper remorse. But remember, ACTIONS are the best way to demonstrate remorse, not mere words.

He may not know himself. Affairs are profoundly selfish actions and the WS is not thinking very much about their spouse when they engage in their inappropriate behaviors. Just imagine how thinking about your spouse would puncture the balloon of an affair fantasy.

You are right that there is some root cause or problem. It might be many things, or only one. You might never be able to put a precise name on it. It can be something wholly inside him, a lack of boundaries he has, issues from his childhood, pure narcissim, mental illness, or it could be because the two of you together made the marriage vulnerable to cheating in some way.

This issue of what needs he had that weren't fulfilled is the stuff of MC after the affair is definitively broken off. What I mainly want you to realize is that if you can't figure out what it is very easily (I was able to easily identify the biggest reasons in our vulnerable marriage), it's likely because the reason lies inside of him, and it wasn't about you at all.

I am very inclined to say it was the latter. Do you know why? He seemed inclined to enter into a second sexual liasion with that old GF, if what you said earlier was true. Way to be 'loyal' to his AP. Serial cheating almost always signals MORE brokenness inside the WS than in the marriage. It can always be a combination, but the issues likely rest mostly in him.

I find this very, very serious. I've read hundreds of my husband's emals with his AP and he never once discussed their future. What bothers me about it isn't that it's true (because it's hard to sort truth from fiction in Affair Land), but rather because it signals just HOW infatuated he is with her. This is a very, very powerful compulsive fantasy he had going on and the temptation to re-contact will be tremendous.

My husband was able to wait about 4 to 6 weeks before he sent an email to his AP asking nothing more than how she was doing. Now, I was not monitoring anything so I was none the wiser. However, now is not the time to relax your vigilance.

On the other hand, as mentioned, if he was approaching a 2nd woman for sex, just how heartfelt was this "love?"

If you don't have the book Not Just Friends and Surviving an Affair already, get them now and read them before MC comes up. When you walk in to greet the MC, ask them if they've read these books, or not. Then be prepared to hand the MC a copy of Not Just Friends and ask them to read it. If you only see them once a month it's not too much to ask. NJF is a great book because you can literally use it to assess whether an MC truly understands infidelity, or not. MCs who don't get it are likely to take the WS at their word that the affair is over, to abhor exposure and to put it behind you as quickly as possible.

My husband told his AP that she was his soulmate, best friend in the whole world, love of his life, the only person who could understand him. Yet here he is with me today as I type, reconciled, recommitted, and fully engaged.

My husband was not cold as yours has been. He openly cried many times after DD#1, he suffered mightily from withdrawal and ultimately gave into temptation and re-entered his affair.

I wonder if it's possible he wasn't as in love with her as his emails make it seem. Definitely something to raise and discuss in counseling, as you say.

hrtbkngrl

Well, the old GF lives in another state. He was telling her that he loved her and couldn't wait to see her when we went up there. He has ceased all contact with her. Apparently she knew about this OW/coworker. Really? Whatever. I told her and she already knew about it. I did email the husband of the coworker. Apparently he knew also, but did not know that they were still in contact until recently when I told him. I guess he found out a few months ago and she moved out for two months and moved back in. He left a voicemail for my husband asking if he would just let him know if they were back in contact. I guess he didn't call him back, but was still in contact. They work together but not in the same building. He will have to see her some time though and this worries me. She is his bosses secretary. He has confessed since the last time I posted that he really cares about her (he knows it hurts me) and it will take time for him to get over her. I know this, but what do I do with it? How did you deal with it? I mean, I guess he loves me because he is here. He chose me and could so easily have chosen her, when she moved out or could, I am sure call her up and say, hey lets move in together. He asked her not to contact him anymore the day before I found out (I saw the email) because it would be too hard to work on our relationship if she was still a distraction. Not sure if any of this makes me feel better.

You are right, he did say that neither one of them talked much about their spouses and what it would do to them. He also finally admitted that over the years I have made him feel unworthy or unattractive or undesirable and he cannot pin point why but I must have said something that triggered this (I probably did) Was too focused on work and the kids. I do believe what you said about it lying within him. A few years ago I realized that he needed more attention, etc. and have been giving him all of me ever since. He has a deep connection withthis OW that he doesn't have with me. I told him that if he thought back to the beginning of us it was like that. That it's like that in most all beginnings. It's fun, exciting, thrilling, everyone is in love,etc. I do believe what you said about it lying within him. A few years ago I realized that he needed more attention, etc. and have been giving him all of me ever since. But he would find himself years down the road in the same situation with her. Plus I told him that he has not been fair and given me a chance as he has put all of his energy in the last year (found out it has been a year long thing) in her and their relationship. He said when he thought about leaving me he couldn't. He could not picture himself old and gray and without me and our grandkids (if we have them), etc. This I believe-he is not one to open up and I can really tell when he is lying. I knew something had been going on but had not proof. I still don't know how to act or feel or what to do with this. Does he love me? Is he going to have to learn how to love me again? How did you do it? What did you do? How did you handle it when your husband was upset about the OW?

I remember you saying that I had a bigger problem on my hands if he was a serial cheater. I have made the OW/coworker aware of everyone. (she has not responded) It's out of the bag. That puzzles me and I asked him. He said he was mainly living out the old GF fantasy. But he was part of it and I am sure had I not found out before our trip that he would have met up with her. (We are not going now per his decision)

I told him that I know it will be hard for him and her to have no contact with each other, but to please let me know so I can deal with it. I think he will but will also be monitoring. He says if she emails or calls he is not sure yet if he will answer or respond (not the answer I wanted, but truthful nonetheless) Truthfulness is what I am looking for. He "says" he will never go back but we shall see. It really kills me that he was/is so connected to her, but makes it a smidgen better that he emailed her before I found out to stop all contact. This relationship with her was very strong so it is harder for me to trust that he loves me or isn't just playing a role or whatever. I am sure I am confusing you. It's just my thought pattern lately.

I have been looking for the books you mentioned, but have not found them around here yet. The library and stores do not have them. I am going to order them off of amazon if they have them.

How long did it take you to start to be comfortable with your husband again. Did he move out and if so, for how long? Whaqt did you do after he gave in to temptation as I am sure this is a great possibility for my situation since neither one of them can afford to quit. I thought about it and there just aren't any jobs around here and my kids come first. But he has been taking an interest in looking for another one so that is a positive step.
You have definitely raised some valid points and given me a better outlook on this situation. I really appreciate it and thank you for responding. I am really here finding for myself. I have made the choice to not tell my family or his (even though he has offered to tell his) because I am not ready for that embarrassment or my family hating him if I am indeed going to work this out with him. He says he knows I may not be able to but would like to stay and try.

And maybe you are right, maybe he wasn't in as much love as he thought (he did say it was more of something he couldn't have than anything)

iheartlife

Just to be clear, the way to handle this issue is to inform him that he absolutely may not have contact with her at all. He is to inform you if she contacts him. Then you are going to need to think of what the consequences will be if he reinitiates contact, make those clear, and then no matter how hard it is, follow through if he contacts her. Filing for divorce and exposure are basically the only two cards you have left to effectively destroy the affair if it starts up again.

The problem with affairs is that because they are such powerful fantasies / escapes from real life, they become compulsions. As you correctly perceive, these relationships don't come under the same pressures as real-life relationships—APs are careful to not disagree with each other, and spend a lot of time complimenting, validating, and affirming one another. It damages the fantasy if one of them starts to nag or complain or argue, so they play their roles carefully. Frankly, if they don't see each other very often, it's just not that hard for any two people to get along under those circumstances!

The point is, the desire to recontact their AP is not unlike a person just quitting smoking. (I don't believe affairs are physiologically additive like nicotine--this is only an analogy.) But people often smoke to relieve anxiety. Just experiencing anxious thoughts can make a new non-smoker reach for the pack. Affairs are very similar. The role they play is to take the partners away from the mundane, boring, tedious parts of life, whether past or present or both, and whisk them away to a place with very few problems. The secrecy adds to the fun--they are creating their own bubble world. So when your husband "quit" his AP, depression, anxiety, boredom, and the unpleasantness of life will likely be triggers for him to contact his AP.

Some people might be able to quit their APs cold turkey. Most, however, cannot. I always think of it like this: they KNEW when they entered the affair that this would make you cry until you couldn't cry any more and would tear your heart in two. They KNEW that if you found out you would be furious and would want to rip their head off and eat it for lunch. But none of that was enough to prevent them from entering the affair. So why--why on earth--could you being profoundly upset and angry--be enough to prevent them from starting up again?

The answer is, it's not. There have to be firm consequences that enforce No Contact. It's not good enough that the make promises. Cheaters are Liars--the words are interchangeable to the point of being indistinguishable. If your husband recontacts her, and you do not enforce your chosen consequence, all you are teaching your husband is to keep right on with the contact, or to take it underground, because he's going to get to die in your bed while giving his heart to someone else.

iheartlife

Amazon has them.

My husband never moved out.

I was lucky I didn't have to deal with a shared job environment. My husband met his AP at work but I discovered the affair after they had both left their place of employment. Encourage him to get a new job every way you can. The two of them working in the same place is very, very, very bad, as you know. I can't tell you differently, I'm sorry.

iheartlife

This is serious. If he is offering to tell his family, you take him up on it. If he renegs on this offer, you tell them anyway. If your husband cannot fully stop all contact with her because of his job, this is a MUST. What his family will do is hold him responsible and accountable and give him the backbone that he desperately needs to hold up his end of the bargain. I would have a simple meeting with his parents, with both of you present. And be sure to tell any siblings, friends, anyone who you believe would hold his feet to the fire in his life.

If you prefer, you could hold off exposing him to your family but have that be a perfectly natural consequence of him re-contacting her. But don't use it as a threat unless you intend to follow through--or just like a toddler you're teaching him to ignore what you say and notice only your inaction.

Exposing them at work is another thing to consider and keep in your back pocket. It's highly recommended, but you do have to consider other factors. But at some point you have to say to yourself: is money so important that it's worth losing my marriage over?

Well, after reading your latest post, I think he certainly felt an affinity for her. My husband was the same. I think he liked her a lot in every way. I think his perspective on it now is that she is someone he would have dated back before he met me. He isn't so clear, however, that he would have chosen to marry her. That's because although they got along well, he realized over time that the relationship was untested by the reality of life, and that their life philsophies, religions, child raising views, etc. differed quite a bit.

As far as him falling back in love with me--one thing I recommend is having sex with your husband as often as he'll let you (which I hope is at least once a week, or a whole lot more than that!). Of course, you will both need to be tested for STDs, use precautions, use condoms, etc. before going crazy. But sex is profound way for a man to show a woman that he loves her. For some reason women can get confused and think of it only as a male need that requires release. But actually, sex creates a strong biological bond between spouses and that's why it's so important. You may find you don't have much desire--well now is not the time to focus on that. You are fighting for your marriage and this is actually one of the easier and most effective tools you have, so whip it out! It will take time but I think you'll see some effects within a few months.

There are also books--His Needs / Her Needs, Love Busters, the 5 Love Languages, Boundaries in Marriage, and our MC just adores The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, he keeps telling us that this book will put him out of business some day, I still have to read that one.

iheartlife

I forgot to mention, you can also expose to OW's parents and siblings.
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hrtbkngrl

Hello again. First wanted to say thank you for all of the great advice you have given me and being so understanding. I feel like I am a pest because I keep posting questions. Our MC is June 15 and in the meantime I still have questions. My latest may seem do obvious but it's nice to hear someone else's thoughts. My H has been doing everything I have ever wanted him to do, being open, forthcoming with information about the coworker and how she has contacted him, being loving and attentive, etc. why do I still have this nagging feeling that something us going on? Is this normal? It seems I can't give my all in to helping fix our relationship because of this. I was just wondering. Thanks.
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hrtbkngrl

Sorry for the misspellings. I try to catch the auto correct but don't always.
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iheartlife

What are you doing to verify he isn't in contact with her?

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally

hrtbkngrl

Checking his devices-phone email etc. he showed me a text that she sent and he did not reply and deleted it after I read it.
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iheartlife

sorry if you mentioned this before--has he handwritten a No Contact letter that you send certified mail, or did you read a parting email that he sent?

Is he accounting for his time throughout the day? Do you also have access to the phone records?

Have you done a sweep of his car to see if he has a spare phone or anything else incriminating there?

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally

hrtbkngrl

I did a sweep of his car, his office, his office at home everywhere that I can think of and nothing. I saw the parting email and he was adamant about her not contacting him ever again. He has been coming home from work every day at noon and is on the phone most of the morning with me. I don't have phone records because his employer pays for the phone and has that. Maybe I'm just crazy.
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iheartlife

What is very hard, right after you discover the affair, is that your body puts you in a state of hyper-vigilance. Danger came near to your home, it nearly snatched your love one from you, and so your adrenaline courses through you and your mind races thinking of the different possibilities. You feel (at least, I felt) like someone slammed a door and scared me, and I couldn't come down from that sensation for weeks.

Do you have the book Not Just Friends yet? she talks about that sensation and condition in the book.

Have you schedule marriage counseling?

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally

hrtbkngrl

I ordered it and it should be here any day. Our counseling is June 15.

That IS the same feeling I have and have had.
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iheartlife

I also attended individual counseling, after both DD#1 and DD#2. I attended for about 3 or 4 months after DD#1 and for about six weeks after DD#2, ending just about a month ago.

I found individual counseling to be terrific for me. It helped me to go just talk about whatever I needed to talk about. I highly recommend it if you can do it.

You may still be in a state of shock right now. Also denial, as if you might wake up from the nightmare. After that wears off, be prepared to experience anger and depression.

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally