Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
My crazy wife tries to say that she kept cheating because i was so angry at her for having cheated.
In her mind that meant I was an angry person who used to be such a fun person to be around. and she could not FIGURE OUT what changed, but she was not at fault and needed to go elsewhere.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
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Originally Posted by canttrustu
I think the answer is No. I think somewhere along the line the WS falls out of love with the bs and allows themselves to move forward. Otherwise, the A would never have BEGAN. It wouldnt have gotten far enough for the fog to begin. They would have walked away when that first pang happened. Yes they are human. Attraction happens. But IF my H was IN love w/me AT the time SHE would not have happened. JMO.
However, I do believe he can love you/me again if he learns who he is again.(if you/i are able to allow it)
IN love is very different from love. One is purely chemical and the root of affairs and one is an intellectual act that leads to genuine feeling and regard. Your experience with A is very different from mine, so that has clearly colored our opinions. I realize that my A was a terrible mistake. I broke down during my session today when my therapist asked for AP's name. I was that ashamed. For some, the A is an incredibly embarrassing moment.
Upon reflection, it's a moment when we realize how weak and human we are. It is very humbling. It shows us the harm people are able to inflict upon each other. It shows that despite pondering questions about life's meaning, (if we are not careful) we are still subject to natural chemical processes. Once you realize the damage you've done, I at least, feel like less of a person...more an animal... and it's insulting to me and to my spouse.
More importantly, I learned that being IN LOVE is very different from loving a spouse. I was always IN LOVE with my spouse, but I failed to understand how to demonstrate real Love 9boundaries, considerations, etc.) Falling and feeling IN LOVE is easy... that;s how A's happen It's building upon that to create a richer experience that is more difficult.
IN love is very different from love. One is purely chemical and the root of affairs and one is an intellectual act that leads to genuine feeling and regard. Your experience with A is very different from mine, so that has clearly colored our opinions. I realize that my A was a terrible mistake. I broke down during my session today when my therapist asked for AP's name. I was that ashamed. For some, the A is an incredibly embarrassing moment.
Upon reflection, it's a moment when we realize how weak and human we are. It is very humbling. It shows us the harm people are able to inflict upon each other. It shows that despite pondering questions about life's meaning, (if we are not careful) we are still subject to natural chemical processes. Once you realize the damage you've done, I at least, feel like less of a person...more an animal... and it's insulting to me and to my spouse.
More importantly, I learned that being IN LOVE is very different from loving a spouse. I was always IN LOVE with my spouse, but I failed to understand how to demonstrate real Love 9boundaries, considerations, etc.) Falling and feeling IN LOVE is easy... that;s how A's happen It's building upon that to create a richer experience that is more difficult.
I am sure your heart would have told you and all WS for that matter, that one is crossing the boundaries. WS choose to ignore the heart and go after the pusuit of pleasure.
Troubles within WS begin with guilt setting in and the relationship goes for a big toss.
Heart says what is right and when the actions conflict, troubles begin. Posted via Mobile Device
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
I think LeslieH has hit on something. Looking back on my 21 year marriage, I can recall many seasons when my wife was very much in love with me. These were interspersed with seasons of indifference, the last one being whe she started having her latest EA/PA. I wonder if at any time in my marriage if my wife truly loved me with that meanngful, committed type of love. I'm beginning to think she never did. I think she stayed with me out of comfort and habit -- not true love. Posted via Mobile Device
Just remember if someone is cheating or having an active EA, they can't really love anyone, including themselves. Everyone can make mistakes and get caught up, it's how you come back from your mistakes and make ammends that shows true character.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
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Originally Posted by michzz
My crazy wife tries to say that she kept cheating because i was so angry at her for having cheated.
In her mind that meant I was an angry person who used to be such a fun person to be around. and she could not FIGURE OUT what changed, but she was not at fault and needed to go elsewhere.
Frankly I don't see how you can put up living with that kind of woman and still keep your sanity.
Again, some men are able to watch porn and then channel their enjoyment into a healthy sex life. Other men get caught in a cycle with porn where (like a drug) they need increasingly harder and harder core stuff to get off (and by getting off, I mean masturbation, which creates a dopamine reward cycle in some men much as cheating does--which is often discussed around here). And then some men take that and then seek more partners to live out their porn-induced fantasies which become stranger and riskier as the "newness" wears off.
In terms of your question about serial cheating, I do believe that it counts if they have multiple partners before you find out. I would probably lump seeing prostitutes as "one" and the affair as "two." Even though he saw prostitutes many times, theoretically he wasn't attached to any one of them and they were to some extent interchangeable bodies where it was all about sex.
But I can see your point, which is that all of this occurred before he recommitted to your marriage, so another way to look at it is that it all counts together as a great big "one" time.
What is the understanding between the two of you about his porn use? That you don't like it but he can still do it? That he tells you he won't but he does it anyway? That he says he's allowed to do it and you shouldn't try to control him?
I'm also curious--if you don't mind me asking--whether any of the therapists have brought up the madonna/who** complex, where he puts you on an idealized pedestal, meant to be worshipped but not enjoyed in a 'dirty' sexy way.
I have set up an appointment for tomorrow night to go together to see a sex therapist. I just feel that the sex and porn side of things are not being dealt with in his IC. I do not want to control his treatment and demand he goes to a sex therapist, but I believe it is our problem now and want to go together for help. I do not think he can maintain just stopping the nightly porn after so many years...on top of that stopping the clubs, women, paying for sex and having a doting AP. I cannot fill all those spaces for a sustainable period of time. He now comes up to bed with me every night, but he admitted in therapy that this prevents him turning to porn. That is alot of pressure for me. I think he believes he is in control, but I think he is struggling. The madonna complex thing is something I have looked at myself, but not mentioned in therapy. I do not have an issue with porn and am realistic enough to know that most men look at it..being such visual creatures, but now that I know that he turned to porn every night instead of coming to bed with me for 10 years out of our 14 year marriage, I do have issue with it. I thought he needed less sleep than me and was playing computer games. My IC has explained to me that he has conditioned himself with orgasms and porn and that this is not going to be easy to break. The fact that he then made it real life in Asia...picking out prostitutes in bars...makes it even harder.
You really have to step back and see for a moment just how shockingly repugnant any spouse would react to finding this out, that their cheating spouse could actually believe that their intensity of feelings for them increased during their cheating.
See, the expression of love for a faithful spouse REQUIRES the context of monagamy.
Anything else? Is just whoring around.
I have never said it was pretty. Indeed I've said many times it adds a deeper level of sick and twisted to my particular transgression. However, unless Pit can help me see that it was just fog overload or something else other what it appeared to be, that is in fact what happened.
I will never say that I was acting like, expressing, or showing my wife that I loved her. I surely was doing the opposite, I'm only speaking of what I felt. Which, to be honest, was such a huge jumble of emotions that I could be totally confused. I'm hoping Pit has some light to shed here.
And yes, actions speak louder than words so all of the above is mostly just pointless drivel, the fact remains that I was cheating on my wife.
Just remember if someone is cheating or having an active EA, they can't really love anyone, including themselves. Everyone can make mistakes and get caught up, it's how you come back from your mistakes and make ammends that shows true character.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
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Originally Posted by Poppy
I have set up an appointment for tomorrow night to go together to see a sex therapist. I just feel that the sex and porn side of things are not being dealt with in his IC. I do not want to control his treatment and demand he goes to a sex therapist, but I believe it is our problem now and want to go together for help. I do not think he can maintain just stopping the nightly porn after so many years...on top of that stopping the clubs, women, paying for sex and having a doting AP. I cannot fill all those spaces for a sustainable period of time. He now comes up to bed with me every night, but he admitted in therapy that this prevents him turning to porn. That is alot of pressure for me. I think he believes he is in control, but I think he is struggling. The madonna complex thing is something I have looked at myself, but not mentioned in therapy. I do not have an issue with porn and am realistic enough to know that most men look at it..being such visual creatures, but now that I know that he turned to porn every night instead of coming to bed with me for 10 years out of our 14 year marriage, I do have issue with it. I thought he needed less sleep than me and was playing computer games. My IC has explained to me that he has conditioned himself with orgasms and porn and that this is not going to be easy to break. The fact that he then made it real life in Asia...picking out prostitutes in bars...makes it even harder.
So perhaps another way to put it is that he's addicted to masturbation via the dopamine reward cycle. If you watch the video, it will explain a lot of what he's going through. I'm glad you are able to zero in on the problem. Of course, turning to porn and masturbation and outside sex constantly is still a symptom of something larger, but addiction specialists have likely seen it all and are able to dig down deep enough to uncover his motivations and to honestly discuss with you the likelihood of recovery.
BTW, not to be graphic, but would be be satisfied with an occasional hand job? Mixes it up a little and gives you a little break.
And I'm so sorry about all of this, because I'm sure sex with him in general is just one great big reminder of the struggle you're going through. But I would draw comfort from the fact that despite all the sex he had with others, sex truly is a way for your husband to express love for YOU and bond with YOU; his mind compartmentalized the two very different acts in a way that may be hard to understand but is still a road back to a healthy marriage.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
Trying to unravel this contradiction is like trying to have a rational debate with a schizophrenic... how do you argue with crazy?
Sitting in counseling with my fWW, our counselor looked at me after a rough session and said to me... "RWB, you do no that AFFAIRs are not real". I replied, the SEX were real, the LIES were real, the risks to my HEALTH were real... etc." She responded, in a fantasy anything is possible. She was looking at my wife.
Without doubt, this discourse on "how could you love me and do that" must vary from person to person. In my wife's case, it was nothing more than a selfish, albeit reckless, fantasy. She could compartmentalize real life just as well as her affair life. As others have said... It really was not about you.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
Poppy
Even though there was no affair (that I know of) that turned off my wife's desire for sex a year and half after we got married, I started resenting her and despite improving myself to become a better husband, after three and a half years of living in a sexless marriage I finally had enough and divorced her. My advice to you is to do the same, divorce him.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
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Originally Posted by sigma1299
I love this statement. It describes the experience better than anything else I've read.
This is a very difficult topic for any BS (and also WS) to wrap their head around.
All I can say from my own personal experience as a BS, I was faced with two caricatures of my wife before and shortly after d-day. One was an evil, conniving spawn of Satan, and the other was an unhappy, fallible human being, whose flaws created a perfect storm of horrible choices which have scarred the both of us for life. From 2 books (MMSL & Not 'Just Friends'), I was able reconcile her actions and choose the second.
My wife has truly been the healer in our recovery. She accepts full responsibility, is working hard to understand and battle her personal demons, and tells me everyday that I'm the real thing and he was just a horribly distorted fantasy. I have no doubt that during the affair she loved me, just as she loves me now.
Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?
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Originally Posted by snap
Let's not stretch the definitions of what love really is, that's how words become useless.
There are varying degrees of love... Surely you see this. I love my children and would do anything for them. Loving my wife isn't a betrayal of that sort of love. Yet the love of my wife is different than that of my children, or friends, or family. I think of it as having various 'conditional' aspects.
While my wife was cheating on me, she says she 'loved' me. I believe it. It just was a lot more conditional than my love for her. We were speaking about two seperate kinds of love. I think of my love for her was 'romantic love' and had romantic expressions.... This is not what she felt for me, but felt for another... But she did have love for me like a family member; Willing to defend, support, etc., without romantic expressions.
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Re: Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you? 
