feelingallalone

Married 24 years, wife in intense EA with other woman 4 months (Verified.) No PA and no desire for PA on wife's part (Verified). Desire for PA by AP (Verified). By the way, thank you TAM for how advice on how to "spy" and find the truth.

We are 3 Days after DD. NC was broken, as expected, first day. On second day I delivered "now we have to divorce, no choice". This was extremely hard to do. I didn't know if it was going to be the end of my marriage or not, but it worked. (thank you TAM for the insight on what to do and how.)

Breakthrough the fog achieved. Finally having HONEST conversations, the deception stopped. (verified). She's opened up and it's all pouring out. I'm listening.

But my WS is still vulnerable, still in fog and still confused, especially since it is another woman, does not have the sexual desire but feels the intense emotional bond. She's mourning the loss. I understand, but need to keep her on track.

I would like to request input from WS who was in a strict EA (preferably woman with woman) or BS with woman WS in similar situation, on how they felt at this stage, what will work to help pull her out of the fog and keep NC.

Will_Kane

What did they talk about? They were friends, but the other woman wanted sex from your wife? If your wife remained in contact with the other woman, where did she envision the relationship going? Almost certainly, there would have come a time in the future when your wife's inhibitions were worn down, maybe by alcohol or just from gradual actions of the other woman, that your wife would have given in to the sexual advances of the other woman. Does your wife not see this?

Do you have kids? Is the other woman your wife's co-worker or someone else who it will be hard to avoid in the future?

Reconciliation can only be successful when the cheating spouse chooses their spouse and family over the affair partner.

It is tough for the cheating spouse to maintain no contact. Block the other woman from all avenues of communication to the extent possible. Get transparency on communication devices and accounts from your wife and monitor to ensure she maintains the "no contact." Have her account for her whereabouts 24/7 until you develop some trust that she no longer wants to contact the other woman.

You should try to make continuing the affair as unpleasant as possible for the other woman. Consider exposing the other woman's actions to her family and friends, emphasizing how the other woman is trying to break up your marriage. If the other woman has a girlfriend, expose to her also. Those close to the other woman will exert pressure on her to give up pursuing a married woman.

Consider exposing the affair to you and your wife's families as well. Let them know that it was not sexual on your wife's part, but it was sexual on the other woman's part and that your wife does not want to give up the relationship. Your wife's family will discourage her from continuing the relationship and will pressure her to stay with you and work on the marriage.

Have your wife handwrite the other woman a "no contact" letter stating that your wife is horribly ashamed of the way she's behaved toward her husband and feels terrible that she risked losing her husband. The letter should state that your wife wants no further contact with the other woman ever again, and that any attempt at contact will be viewed by your wife as harassment and she will file harassment charges against the other woman.

Accept that you may lose your wife and marriage no matter what you do. You cannot control your wife, only your self. Your wife has to know, she can have the other woman, but if so, then she can't have you, too. Ultimately, it is your wife who is going to have to want you over the other woman.

It might help for your wife to see the other woman in a negative light. Exposure helps to do that. Also, ask your wife what kind of gay woman preys on straight married women and breaks up marriages? Also emphasize how unrealistic her friendship with the other woman is. Your wife sees the other woman as a friend. The other woman sees your wife as a lover and an object of sexual desire. That relationship cannot work. Either it has to be a friendship, or a sexual relationship. It is unrealistic of your wife to believe the "friendship" could continue very much longer without it becoming sexual.

Be strong, firm and confident with your wife. Do not show neediness or weakness. Be at your best. Look your best. Project to her that you will be OK with or without her. If she has chosen you over the other woman, try to strengthen your relationship with your wife. Spend time together. Have sex. Do fun things together.

The longer your wife maintains no contact with the other woman, the more her feelings should fade.

sigma1299

Well I only meet one of your qualifications - having been involved in a very intense EA only, but my thoughts can't hurt.

It is extremely difficult to maintain no contact and it is good that you recognize the challenge that lies in front of both of you. You've likely read here about the addiction element of the fog, I can't emphasize enough just how true this is. Treat her exactly like you would if you were trying to get her clean. Inspect, verify, communicate - hold her accountable. Let her know you will inspect what you expect and let her see you do it. Keep dealing with it all and talking about it. Keep asking her questions, keep asking her why and how. Keep her thinking about it. If you start to rug sweep it the travesty she's created will slowly start to recede from her mind and the fog will roll back in to fill the void. You have to keep her mind filled up with thoughts of you, what she stands to lose, and what she can do to reconcile.

Keep a sharp eye out. It is so very easy to reestablish contact. I broke NC three times before it took. Never for more than a day or two and it was either with my wife's advance knowledge or I confessed. I wanted out of my EA, had no desire to resume it and I still broke NC. It's a tough battle. She's going to struggle and suffer, do not cut her any slack. You have to keep you boot on the neck of an affair until you are totally convinced it's dead. If you let up to soon, it will spring back to life.

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Machiavelli

Not at all what you asked for, but here's a NY times article with some recent research into why women go down this road:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/ma...pagewanted=all

Hopefully, there will be some useful info there for you. The upshot would be that there isn't much difference whether these things happen with men or women, since women are on a sliding scale of sexuality.

iheartlife

Have you read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass? It is the best book I know of right now to fully explain emotional affairs.

This is the 3rd time I've said this, this weekend:
cheaters think it's about the physical, and if they haven't crossed that line, they're in the clear.

But cheating isn't about that. It's about creating a secret private life from which your spouse is excluded.

It's powerfully addicting and it can defy reason. It fills a need or else anyone would be able to walk away from it. You see the proof with your own eyes now.

Have you read His Needs / Her Needs, Love Busters, and/or the 5 Love Languages yet. These books will give you insight to needs / ways of pushing her away that you may be unaware of. They come with questionnaires on the websites that she can fill out. The good thing is that if she is recommitted, you get something out of it too, she can discover the needs in you that she wasn't aware of / isn't fulfilling.

feelingallalone

Will Kane: Many thanks for the taking the time to write this. I agree with the potential for sexual relations as you described. I discussed it with my wife on DDay. Again, she's "confused" but part of her sees that was a potential, part of her is in denial of it as a potential.

AP recently broke up with SO, this is what triggered the escalation of their friendship of 5 years, as she sought guidance/consolation from my wife. AP was good friend of my wife and a friend of mine. There are few people to expose AP to. I am leaving that be for now.

Wife finally chose marriage and family after breaking NC and confronted with imminent divorce in a manner that convinced me is sincere and true.

I am just so glad to be out of limbo, and past DDay and 2nd DDay. What a horrible time and devastating experience. Yet I know my wife and marriage is still vulnerable.

Thank you for your other advice. Taking to heart.

feelingallalone

Sigma 1299: Thank you, very valuable input for me. I have a few questions if you would:

1. In the first week after DDay, how did you process the conflicting emotions, how aware of being in the fog were you? I told my wife she is in the fog, gave her some stuff to read explaining it. Do you think more of that will help?

2. I intend to about it each day, remind her of NC, ask her how she feels. She is now comfortable talking about what she calls "mourning the loss". I listen. I see this as a sign that she is turning back to me emotionally. It is a tricky balance to "keep her aware" without her feeling I am lording it over her. She has opened up, and I want to keep that coming. I am insisting on complete honesty in sharing our emotions and feelings. My question is: What is doing it too much, how receptive were you early on to questions? I want to keep that part going but also be upbeat and normal -- that's the right approach? I think if I over emphasize it too much every day it becomes a negative. What are you thoughts on that?

3. In your view, what will be the signs that it is dead? How do I recognize her coming out of the fog? Are there significant stages?

Thank you again.

feelingallalone

Machiavelli: Thanks. That's quite an interesting article. I was quite concerned that it would slide into that -- after all, the best sex is from strong emotional bonds. My wife is beautiful, attractive and sexy - she looks 15 yrs younger than she is. The AP is not really that attractive and quite overweight, but she would be cute if she lost 40 pounds. But the physical aspect isn't important when the emotional bonds are so intense. So I could see that all happening given enough time, exactly as you said, at time of intoxication and more complete alienation from me. When I finally got access to texts I saw that AP was setting me up as "the bad guy", subtle yet consistent. I had thought that was happening and was right.

feelingallalone

Iheartlife: I will get the "friends" book right away. I think this will help. You are spot on. My wife is having a difficult time with the idea that it was an "affair" and not just some special bonding like a best friend she had when she was a child. She sees it and doesn't at the same time. Or rather, she sees that that is what it was/is, but is having a very, very difficult time accepting that is what she has done. But it is starting to hit home.

Got his/hers needs today, was debating on the 5 languages, but guess I'll get that as well.

Thanks for the input!!!!

feelingallalone

Sigma 1229: Did you experience "confusion" and "vaccilation" in understanding and recognizing what you had done by engaging in the EA? If so, how long to stat to get clarity, or is that just part of the fog?

moxy

She needs a counselor. While your W may not have had sexual or romantic feelings toward the OW, she had a deep friendship. She'll be mourning that and she won't know how to talk to you and open up to you about it. Whether the AP was a woman or a man doesn't matter. What matters is the loss of friendship, support, and comfort that she got from that relationship, which is going to be standing in the way of you two re-connecting. If you're really worried about her vulnerability, then I suggest you help her find a good therapist (either MC or IC). She needs to feel safe in order to open up to you and, right now, you're the one who has taken away her friend, so she doesn't feel safe. You did the right thing and you should follow the same guidelines about keeping your W and OW apart. You should be kind to your wife, too. Try your best to connect with her positively and make her see that you love her. Don't allow her to slip up in terms of contact with this AP; be vigilant and be ready to enforce whatever boundaries you've established. However, don't let her languish in a void...be the person she wants to turn to, so that you can both rebuild your relationship.

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"“We first crush people to the earth, & then claim the right of trampling on them forever, because they are prostrate." -Lydia Maria Child.

sigma1299

I knew I was really messed up but I didn't recognize it as "the fog" until many months later. It would have saved me a lot of turmoil had I had this site early on to explain it to me. I processed it by making the conscious decision to ignore the pain and conflicting emotions because I knew what I really wanted. I knew that I loved and wanted my wife, that the whole EA had been a miserable screw up on my part. I accepted the pain as stupid tax for cheating and poured my efforts into my wife and marriage.

To me the biggest thing here is to make sure you TALK. Don't berate her or torture her. Ask her what you need to and want to know about, but when she triggers you - and she will - try not to attack her. IMO you'll be hard pressed to talk about it too much - especially early on - as long as you keep it constructive.

Coming out of the fog is like over coming a drug addiction. It just gets easier every day and fades away. The thing is she can fake being over it and there is really not much way to know as long as she abides by no contact. If she plays by the rules of the reconciliation you really can't know if the AP is completely out of her heart or not. This is where trust comes back in.



No I didn't have this. My EA was everything but actual sex, there was no mistaking it for an over zealous friendship - we were into phone sex, I love you's, ect.... It was a five alarm EA. I experienced lots of confusion in coming to terms with what I had done, but none in recognizing it as cheating. I also experienced no desire to go back to the affair. I was fogged up to hell and back, but as I said above, I knew what I wanted and focused on that.

Her being willing to talk about openly is a very good sign IMO. Keep it out in the open and deal with it. Take advantage of both of you being out of your comfort zones to really explore and work on what's going on with her and your marriage.

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iheartlife

5 Languages is short, and it has a super quick online questionnaire that you could get almost anyone to fill out, so it helps you get a jump start on this stuff while you read the other books.

BTW, our MC just recommended Not Just Friends for my SPOUSE to read (I have already read it) so the two of you reading it together would be a great way to go. It of course assumes opposite-sex relationships, but as we've discussed gender is irrelevant when it comes to a secret on-the-side relationship.

The mourning period can last a while. They say it takes at least 6 weeks for the bonding hormones to START to wear off. And any contact can restart the clock.

My husband cried buckets of tears after DD#1. I had a great deal of compassion for him because even though he was crying for the loss of the AP, it was clear how incredibly painful NC was, and I really loved my husband and hated seeing him hurt. The bummer was, I didn't know about TAM or how affairs worked, so I just thought oh, he has to work through this pain but then he'll get to the other side. When in reality, he reached a point where he couldn't stand it any longer (about 4 to 6 weeks post DD#1) and sent her a short fishing email. A week went by, then they had a little more contact. By 8 or 9 weeks post DD#1 they were right back where they left off as if nothing had happened.

One problem you may have is consequences. You said yourself you don't have much in terms of exposure options. Divorce that's just a threat is generally not enough to stop resumption of contact when they're in the throes of addiction. Not sure what you said to her about divorce that shook her out of it this second time, but you have to make that stick or you will never get out of this nightmare.

feelingallalone

Moxy: Thanks for your input. She came home from work last night seriously depressed. Cried on my shoulder because she missed her AP so much. This happened two times within a half hour. I too have a great deal of compassion for her, simply because I love her so much. But today I realize it is starting to rapidly wane.

She was sort of out of it. Kinda distant. I talked to her about seeing an IC, she is totally not interested. This didn't surprise me, it's the way she is, I'm pretty much the same way, although I did try to persuade her of the benefits. The insurance will cover it for awhile under mental health, so it's not a financial issue.

I'm exhausted over all of this. She seems totally self-absorbed in her "mourning".

If I discover contact, I will file for divorce. She knows that...I just can't live in this type of marriage. Just can't believe it changed so quickly. Difficult to truly wrap my mind around all of this.

Showed her the books I got (his needs/her needs and not just frieds), when she saw the reference to "affair" and "infidelity" in the subtitles she made a face and seemed a bit resentful...she knows she has done something wrong, but since there was no PA, can't accept it as cheating. She's in denial. I don't see how we move forward.

While I'm trying to be supportive as all heck, it should be the other way around, no? I'm not seeing that at all. She's in mourning and I'm being supportive but she's the one that has done wrong. I'm doing all the lifting...naw, just can't do it this way any longer.

I still can't believe what has happened and changed so much in 4 short months.

What a nightmare, what a nightmare.

I know, I know... time for the 180....

sigma1299

You're pretty much right in all of the above.

I'm curious though of a little more detail. EA's aren't like sex, there is no definitive line in the sand - they are much more shades of grey. You said in you opening post that her AP had the desire to take it PA and your wife didn't - did your wife know her AP wanted it to go PA? How deep of an EA was it? How long did it go on?

I only ask because we can't evaluate how deeply in denial she is by not accepting she did something wrong because we don''t really know what she did wrong. I mean, confiding too much with another female friend is a far cry from saying I love you and sexting. I think more information will help us give you more constructive and appropriate opinions.

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