Zanna

My H and I have been together for 18 years. Both of us early 40's. 3 kids - 7, 14,17

We started having problems about 5 years ago. We went to counselling twice but H but both times, we dropped out because H said it wasn't working for him. I attended a session alone once and the counsellor told me I deserved better. He said that H was immature, played emotional mind games and thought of marriage as a competition. Anyway, our M continued to go downhill. I would try to talk to my H about my feelings but he always discounted my unhappiness. He often didn't treat me as an equal partner. For instance, he decided we should go into business with his father without discussing it with me first and told me what he discussed with his father was none of my business.

I eventually gave up on our M due to frustration and hopelessness, and seriously contemplated leaving. I shared this with my H who made excuses, got angry but seemed unwilling to make changes. I felt like I was doing all the work on our M so I withdrew and put my efforts into my career instead.

Sex had dwindled to twice a year at this point. There was little emotional intimacy but we were still affectionate and kind to one another most of the time.

About 18 months ago, my H met a married woman in a bar who also claimed she was also in a bad marriage and 2 weeks later he took her on a business trip. He didn't fall into an affair. They planned it. He said I rejected him sexually and she made it obvious she was interested so he decided he could get himself some sex because she seemed easy.

The A went on for 6 months during which H became a different person. He ignored the kids. He was impatient and quick to anger. I knew something was wrong but didn't suspect an A as they saw each other very infrequently.

After 6 months, H broke off the A due to guilt and because he claimed he wanted to give our M another try. Although, he now admits he never actually worked on the M during that time, and still expected me to do all the work and make him feel wanted.

4 months later H decided we were done (once again he didn't bother to tell me) and got back together with OW. This time he told her he was leaving me and moving out. His behaviour during this time was even worse. He often drank too much and started fights over the most ridiculous issues. Accused me of not liking sex, asked me if I wanted him to get a girlfriend. I asked him what was going on and he would deny, deny, deny. Often the next morning, he would apologize. After 3 months of this, he asked for a D. I offered to pack up his clothes for him because at this point I was pretty fed up with the emotional abuse.

He said after asking for a D, he regretted it immediately so he began reading books on marriage.

He quickly realized that he still loved me and that he had just been angry and hurt. He broke up with OW a couple weeks after asking for a D and she lost her mind. She claimed he owed her and screamed, cried, and begged for hours in person and by phone. She said that she had waited for him for a year, asked her H to leave and therefore he should be with her. She said if he left her, she would tell me about the A and destroy our M.

During this time, OW was calling the house numerous times a day using a blocked number and hanging up. I thought it was telemarkers. Apparently, I'm that stupid. H thought she would give up and go away but she would not stop so he finally told her it was absolutely over. He would never see her again and she needed to accept it. He started counselling on his own to figure out how to save the M.

Weeks later, OW called without blocking her number. I asked about the name on the call display and he admitted the whole thing. He said he started it for sex. Then got caught up in the admiration. She wanted him and I did not so he thought he had real feelings for her. Then once he had to face actually divorcing me, she didn't look like such a prize. He realized that affairs are built on lies and deceit and the whole second life thing was killing him. (He was drinking too much, crying often, developed skin issues, heart palpitations, weight gain).

He begged me not to kick him out and to please consider trying to reconcile. That he would wait until I was ready...

I didn't kick him out because of our kids but I have no idea where I'm at because I'm still angry, hurt and still not sure if I can do this and it's over 8 months later. He said it will take time and from what he's read, most likely 2-5 years for me to feel safe again. He claims he absolutely understands my doubts but that now he is going to be the husband that I should have had all along. He said the A was the biggest mistake of his life. He claims he was selfish, immature and entitled and that he used the excuse of his needs not being met to start an A but that it was not a justification at all. That he had other options but he chose to act like a loser who lied and cheated and he is disgusted with himself and his horrible actions. He said he will never make such an appalling decision again.

For the past 8 1/2 months, he has certainly said and done all the right things. He asks to spend a lot of time with me, calls, texts me every hour when he is at work. Sends photos to prove who he is with and where. He is home most of the time when he is not working. He takes me on trips and makes an effort to tell me he loves me many times a day. He offers to rub my back or my feet and pampers me when he can tell I'm struggling. He said his guilt over how he has hurt me will be with him the rest of his life. He said OW was never my competition at all. Just someone who wanted him when I did not but that she is not who he wants and never was. He was confused during that time and very angry because he felt I rejected him first. However, he claims that he has learned so much from this and will now do whatever it takes to help me heal.

He's saying and doing all the right things but now I'm the angry one. I was unhappy too. I tried to talk to him. We could have gone to counselling and fixed our M but he chose to make it worse and now he's happy to still be here and I'm in constant emotional pain.

I love him but I'm not sure I can ever get past the betrayal. He started the A right before a very big career milestone for me, which he knew he would be attending the next day. He started an A and then acted like my supportive happy husband in front of my friends and colleagues. The memory of that milestone is ruined forever. And he took this skank on a business trip to the very place where we celebrated our honeymoon. I'm obsessed with those two details.

I don't look at him the same way anymore. Something in me has died and I'm not sure I can get it back.

I know I've made my share of mistakes in this M but I was always faithful. And I had opportunities.

How can you ever trust again after infidelity? Is it really possible? I've read the success stories but can't even begin to understand how it's possible. He acts wonderful and sweet and so loving but I am still having so many doubts.

TDSC60

You and your husband share responsibility for problems in the marriage 50/50.

The affair is 100% on him. Like you, he could have remained faithful.

From what you have written, it doesn't even look like the affair upset you all that much and that is an indication of how bad your marriage really is.

So what are you looking for?

Confirmation that you should divorce him? My spouse and I would be divorced if she had done what your husband has.

You know what is best for you. You know where the line in the sand is for you. If he has crossed it then file the papers.

I find it hard to believe that he suddenly had an epiphany that he love and cares about you and wants to change. Did he go through a traumatic event recently? Death or severe illness in the family? Sometimes something like that can actually open a persons eyes to reality.

Bottom line is that it is all up to you now.

Edit: Yes, some here have reconciled successfully and say that their marriage is better than before. Maybe they can direct you to their stories.

Remains

I have felt the same as you. The way I knew how I really felt was when I was in danger of losing him!

If he is now acting like a 'sap' or a 'doormat' due to his guilt then that does not make him attractive, it allows your anger at him to flourish, and the combined effort of keeping the marriage together from both sides to be amiss. It allows you to now make no effort because all the effort should now come from him as he did all the damage. This makes for an imbalance. And that imbalance allows your anger to overcome and confuse your real feelings of whether you want to keep him or not. I don't know if you want this marriage it not, and his behaviour has changed so much that he is no longer the man you married...in his 'new' self as well as his 'had an affair' new and alien personality. But just in the way of BS way of dealing with WW, the threat of losing the spouse makes us realise exactly how we feel.

I don't know if this makes any sense to you or not, if my situation has an afinity with yours or not. I had to tell my man to 'man' up' and not become a wimp due to his worry of us being over. I did not find that attractive. Love, thoughtfulness, care, pampering...yes. Wimp & doormat...no!

Shaggy

Zanna, it's ok to divorce. You will go on, he will go on. Everyone will go on, but on a different path than if you were together.

I get the sense that you feel that having fought for the marriage that you now need to be also wanting it, but his repeated betrayal and choosing the OW over you has left you scarred and scared.

Your choices are: 1) to stick it out and see if it turns around. IC during this time might help; 2) call it quits and move on; 3) use a trial separation to give yourself time to think.

Normally I'm very against separation, but in your case where you on one hand want the marriage, but on the other hand don't really want the man your married too. It might give you space to decide which you want more.

Zanna

TDSC60 - I am very upset about the affair. I'm upset that he stole my choices. That he quit counselling and then decided to start an A and then when that didn't work out in his favor, or turn out to be the magic solution for him and OW turned out to be a bunny boiler and emotionally needy and crazy, suddenly he wants me and our M. So yes, I'm very upset and very angry. He knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. And yes, I am considering D because even though he seems remorseful, I don't know if I will ever trust him again. He's urging me to consider our shared history and the fact that we love each other and that we went through crisis time in our marriage but where was his rational 18 months ago?

And yes, his mother died but that was shortly before he started the A. So she died and he decided to chuck our family and our marriage away. I don't have a lot of respect for him as a man or as a father.

Remains, I do know what you mean but if he was acting like he didn't care, that wouldn't go over well either. Like I said, I'm very confused. I'm not sure what I want because either choice will be painful.

morituri

You must understand something. For many of us an affair is a deal breaker that merits divorce. It doesn't makes us any better or any worse than the folks who are willing to R (reconcile) after their spouse has an affair. What is important is that you be absolutely certain which side you fall into. Like it or not, you will have to live with your decision and so you have to make sure that you will be at peace with it.

__________________
"Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal." Robert A. Heinlein

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Zanna

Thanks, Shaggy. Yes, I have suggested a separation and he's very against it. He keeps trying to talk me out of it because he feels we will heal together in the same house. He also claims he will miss me too much. Yes, now he suddenly seems to realize what he's losing but when he was taking OW, a disgusting tramp that he just met in a bar, to the place where he celebrated his honeymoon with his wife, he really didn't seem to care what he was destroying!

I have suggested he move out after the kids finish the school year and he says he's not going anywhere...

Zanna

I always said it was my dealbreaker until it happened and then suddenly he was trying to talk me out of it and I was looking at the destruction of my family and my kid's pain and it wasn't that simple anymore.

If we had been married for a shorter time period and we didn't have kids, my choice would be easier.

It's the shared history, the good years and the love we still share.

But then there's the betrayal and the horrible way he treated me for so long and I feel that he does not deserve me.

I have no idea which side I fall on anymore. That's why i'm trying to sort it out because I have to live with this decision for the rest of my life.

Sadly, he didn't think of any of this before he made what he calls the most regrettable decision of his life. So disgusted with him.

If I wanted to end my M, I would allow my spouse some dignity and treat them with respect. I don't understand cheaters at all. Selfish, selfish people.

Affaircare

Zanna~

Hi! Before I respond to you I'd like to introduce myself a little. In my first marriage, my exH was physically, emotionally and verbally abusive, and I don't mean that he balled up his fist and hit me in the face--no it was more subtle like grabbing my arm until it felt like it would break, smashing the wall RIGHT next to my head, kicking my pets in his anger, pushing me onto the floor or into a wall, forcing me to some position (like kneeling)... stuff like that. I know what it can be like being with an abusive spouse. In addition, my ex was the one who had an affair and in the end it was one from which we could not recover, but about 99.99% because he would not address his anger issues or change! For transparency, in my second marriage I was the one who had an affair, and I have to tell ya it is probably the thing I regret the most in the world, that I would stoop to such behavior. It's embarrassing! But thankfully my second marriage is a LOT better, and we were able to work through everything. To this day we are happily married, and so I am living proof that even when a couple gets pretty far off track, you can indeed reconcile, fall back in love, and be happy.

I'm responding to you here tonight because I think it is entirely reasonable for you to need more than just a few months to get past this and heal....and yet I do have a few thoughts that may help you a bit. One thing I do notice is that prior to your H's "awakening" (for whatever reason, the scales fell off his eyes), that you really did have to endure a LOT of behavior that was pretty abusive and hurtful. If you were to envision that your heart is a tree stump, and each one of his hurtful words was a nail, he may be working now on removing those nails (and I am very glad to hear that it sounds like he's had quite a change)...but once those nails are removed that does not in any way mean that the HOLE isn't still there!! Thus, it makes some common sense to me that even though he is doing the right things and saying the right things....that you still feel pretty hurt! I'd say that is not surprising to be honest. And I'd encourage you to just recognize that when someone breaks a hip or breaks a thigh bone...those are major injuries and it just doesn't recover quickly or all at once. In fact, months and sometimes years can go by and it's still not entirely healed...but it is HEAL-ING. So I'd say what you're feeling is natural.

Second, from what I can see it seems that there may be an issue getting in the way of your healing, and that's the inaccurate idea that once you do heal, it will "be like it once was" (in other words, back in the day when you felt loved and/or when he acted loving). In real life this is very much like breaking a thigh bone in that the bone itself may begin to knit back together but in some ways that bone is never quite as strong as it once was...is never quite the same as it was...never really quite stops aching. It's life. The fact of the matter is that the bone can "heal" but from the point of that break forward it just will never again be the bone it once was. It is no longer a bone that was never broken and is not longer the young, strong, perfect bone: it is a bone that broke! It heals and it can be strong once again, but it's strong as the broken bone.

Do you see what I mean there? You're marriage is kind of like that. Before this affair, you had an image or definition in your head of what you thought your marriage was--maybe something like "We may fight but we love each other too much to ever cheat and that will never happen to us"... and now that image is broken. You will never BE that again. Now part of that image was being naive and believing stuff even though you could see evidence to the contrary...sort of denying it to yourself...but part of it was the beautiful innocence of young love, first love, and faithful love. So part of your "GRIEF" (so to speak) is that you are grieving because your unbroken bone is gone; your innocent image of what you thought your marriage was is gone.

If you want to reconcile and recover your marriage, here is a very tough piece of gristle to chew on: you are going to have to let go of that unbroken bone. It's gone and no matter how sad you are, it won't come back. Furthermore, even if you do divorce this husband and marry another, you won't get the young love, first love, faithful love bone back because your new hubby would have an exW and "his" kids to support and/or raise, and you'd have an exH and "her" kids to support and/or raise...and trust me that's like trying to manage TWO broken bones!! It's harder (not easier)!! So that one thing I would strongly recommend that you start to come-to-grips-with is that the bone BROKE and the unbroken bone is not ever, Ever, EVER coming back. You'll probably need to cry about that for a while.

Next, once you can sort of accept that "Okay...it broke. It is what it is" you can look at the man, as he is NOW and make a conscious decision. Either decide to be the kind of woman who honors her vows and keeps her promises even when the going gets EXTREMELY TOUGH and then rebuild something altogether new with the man your husband is today (like as if he is a new guy)....

OR

..decide to be the kind of woman who will only have a partner in her life who gives 100% of his affection and loyalty to you, and you are not able to rebuild with the same person who gave so much less than 100% for so many years.

The thing is, I suspect that deep down you really WANT to rebuild but you just don't know how to let go of all the hurt and resentment and pain from over the years--all the lies, the looking in your eyes and telling you that you're crazy--the blaming you--all of it. If you decide that you do want to rebuild, one way you can do it is to say "Okay, I'm going to have to release as much of what happened in the past as I can, and that means I can't hold it over his head like a weapon to get my way." I would recommend maybe writing a list of everything he's ever done that just tore you apart, writing exactly what you think in your heart (swear words and everything!!) and then do something symbolic to let those things go. Burn the list. Throw it on the grill and as the smoke goes up from the flame, you let it go. Light the list with a match and let the ashes be fertilizer for a new bleeding heart plant (get it...bleeding heart? ). The point is, they are gone; let them go. Then look at who he is NOW...how he acts NOW...how he treats you NOW...and just be neutral. Give him the chance to show you the changes and maybe win you back. I'm not saying "put him through the mill to get you" but more like "I will be neither positive nor negative and you have the opportunity to show me what it could be like...this New Marriage."

When a thigh bone breaks, it is never the unbroken bone again. But if you do physical therapy, it can be strong again. It can rebuild into a strong bone again. It's just a bone that has that scar...something new.

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

JustMe321

Zanna -

I'm so sorry for what you have been through.

Your story could be mine in a lot of ways. My WS and I did not have a perfect marriage before his affairs. This added to the difficulty of trying to R with him after. Now he seems to be a different guy (or at least trying to be) but it's not like our only issue is his showing remorse for the A. I need to work on all the 'other' issues, but this just overshadows everything. It's a lot to try and work on at once. And for me, I'm finding it very hard, well damn near impossible to move forward. Like you, I'm not sure R is what I want.

Those events that stick with you, the ones that you replay in your mind that bother you the most, those thoughts just don't seem to go away. At least for me. We are almost a year and half out and I still get find myself almsot...shocked...by his choices. Like you, his A was going on right over major events in our life. Birthdays, anniversaries, graduations. Special days forever ruined.

I've gotten some really insightful responses here and I think you will too. One of the folks here told me to not jump into R and I think that's right. I need to remember that I have whatever time I need to make decisions and so do you.

Thoughts are with you.

JM321

sunshinetoday

Hello, since your H is remorseful and trying, if you can give it some more time you should. It takes so long to get over such a betrayal. Time helps alot. If you can't then you have every right to ask for a D.

-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums

Sara8

I am in a similar place. My husband took his OW to my favorite restaurants. Restaurants that were too pricey for anything other than very special occasions. Yet he took here there often just on dates.

I know from a jungian perspective, he must have known on some emotional level that doing so would hurt me.

My hypothesis about cheaters is that they are unhappy with themselves, blame their spouses and then hurt them by having an affair.

The affair is a form of emotional abuse and it is designed to slap down the spouse.

She is also stalking me and starting trouble in many ways.

I am thinking of filing and have an appointment with the divorce attorney. My husband however does not want a divorce.

I am staying single forever, If I divorce. Can't trust myself to choose wisely because I was so blindside by his affair.

38m3kids

Almost 2 years out and finally accepting that love and marriage will NEVER be the same as a few poster have mentioned. I stay/stayed mostly because of my love for my children and family lifestyle. I miss truely loving my wife, and treatingher like royalty. Now.. sex is sex, and that's about the extent of my feeling for her other than my appreciation for her as the mother of my children. I envy those who can truely R, or Divorce and find a new happiness. I'm not miserable.. but im content with being content... at least for now.. Good luck!

JustMe321

Wow, I don't think I could have put it closer to my truth than that.

Zanna

Affaircare, thank you for your well-written and thoughtful post. Much of what you said really resonated with me. It's taken me a while to respond as I've been very busy with work and haven't logged on but I have been reading the board. Also, I have been trying not to obsess about whether I want to R or D because my contant vacillating was driving me crazy.

I'm still not sure I can get past this but I did read somewhere recently to get your marriage in the best shape possibly before deciding if you want to end it after an affair.

So I am trying. Instead of being cold and distant, I am allowing my H to hug me and show me affections. Instead of rejecting him, I am responding positively even when I don't feel like it. I can't say that the good feelings or the love is always there but it is at times.

We have been spending a lot of time together and making love daily and I can tell he's happy and hopeful. Last night, at dinner he told me he's been such an idiot in our relationship and that he hopes I will give him the chance to make me happy and be the husband he should have always been. He said when he reflects back on his past behaviour, he's embarrassed by his poor coping skills and by all the blame he heaped upon me. While that feels nice to hear now. I am resentful. Why could he not listen to my unhappiness or express his before he got involved with such a revolting tramp? Now I have to endure more emotional turmoil because he could not make a rational moral decision when it was simple and obvious.

Now my decision is definitely not simple or obvious.

It certainly doesn't help that his insane ex-OW took to stalking me and bombarding me with nasty emails.

Threatening her with a restraining order put an end to the emails but she's still lurking about my online profiles.

She clearly has not given up and every time I am reminded of this, I get angry. Very angry. I have to look over my shoulder for a crazy person thanks to my H's poor decisions. This OW is nuts and I wonder what she's truly capable of. She wanted my H desperately. And she thinks that us reconciling is unfair to her because get this, she said he owed her. I guess his wife and mother of his children and the one with the marriage license was owed nothing but being a sleazy tramp that sleeps with married men... well that entitles you to being "owed".