WH and I seperated almost 4 weeks ago. I asked for it - I needed time to work through my feelings by myself, and I had also reached the point where I felt like I had to start pulling out the big guns to show I was no longer going to be a doormat.
Some things have gotten better. I feel like I am being treated with more respect. But there are two big things that stand in the way of R - effort and TT.
He tells me he is willing to do whatever it takes repeatedly. When I give him specific things he can do, he does do them, eventually. For example, I asked him to read the first chapter in a book (20 pages) because it described how I was feeling better than I could myself. He read it - two weeks later when he "had the time". Before D-day, he would have never read the book. Sometimes I feel like I am being unreasonable - that I should look at it as an improvement. Most times I think if he is too busy to take a half hour to make our marriage better, this will never work.
He's a world class trickle truther. Here is a great example of it in a recent text conversation (they were co-workers btw):
M: You said she would call your phone from her phone at work, what would she call about?
WH: Asking if I was mad cause I wasn't looking at her, stuff like that
M: How often would you look at her?
WH: I hardly ever looked at her
M: That doesn't make sense. If you rarely looked at her, why would she notice you weren't?
He then calls and says "I would look at her a few times a day but didn't know how to convey that it writing" By writing "a few times a day"?? When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?!? I countered by saying if there is a specific answer to a question, and you answer it with an indirect answer I can interpret a million ways, you are not telling the truth. It is so frustrating. Does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the TT? I'm going to go crazy.
Write out your questions. Everything you want to know. Ask him to give you time line facts too. I would get into MC asap.
~M: You said she would call your phone from her phone at work, what would she call about?
WH: Asking if I was mad cause I wasn't looking at her, stuff like that
M: How often would you look at her?
WH: I hardly ever looked at her
M: That doesn't make sense. If you rarely looked at her, why would she notice you weren't?~
That sounds like OW was trying to get a response out of him like screaming, "Hey look at me!!" Whatever the case may be over the text there is a lot of work he has to do.
Is he NC with OW?
Thanks Kurosity
I've written down where I feel like he has contricted himself or TTed me, but I haven't gone through it with him yet. I feel like it is a waste of my time until he can understand why TT is going to kill our relationship. I have attempted giving one or two examples to him (like the text I shared) and he denys he is doing it. We are in MC and I have brought it up there a few times but no one seems to get through to him, he thinks he is doing a good job telling the truth. Do you think I should just go ahead with what I have written?
I'm sure that is exactly what the OW was doing. But then comes in the end part of his text "stuff like that". Stuff like when you are going to hook up next? Stuff like you are looking hot today? Whatever it was about doesn't really matter, just tell me the whole truth.
He is NC with her, since D-day as far as I know. She hasn't worked there for 10 months or so.
When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?!? I countered by saying if there is a specific answer to a question, and you answer it with an indirect answer I can interpret a million ways, you are not telling the truth. It is so frustrating. Does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the TT?
I wish I could say there was an easy way to stop it, but in my case I had to settle for being the investigator and pointing out logical flaws. Made me come off as an a**hole a lot of the time, and made her more careful about how she spoke.
To this day, she denies that she TT'd me, but it was classic:
Q: Did you ever see him outside of work?
A: No! Never. We never left the premises.
Q: So you never went to his house or anything? He lived pretty close.
A: Never! I would never do that!
~later~
Q: Did you go to his house on XX/XX?
A: What?! Why would you ask that? (~classic misdirection, right?~)
Q: According to the phone records you'd called and texted him about an hour before you texted me that you were coming home. You didn't stop by his house after work?
A: ...
Q: Did you?
A: ...yes.
Q: Damnit! I knew it!
A: ...but it was only for few minutes. I just needed to go there to <xyz benign thing>.
Q: ...Did you kiss him there, too?
A: ...
Q: Well?
A: ...Yes.
Q: Damnit!! When are you going to start telling me the truth?
A: But it was just a peck goodbye!
Q: How long were you really there?
A: ...I don't know. Maybe 45 minutes.
TT sucks. The small victory you feel when you catch the lie is nothing compared to the despair of knowing your spouse can lie right to your face--looking you in the eye! And she still has the nerve to wonder why I question things sometimes.
I'm sorry you have had to deal with TT too, it really is the worst. I know exactly what you mean about the small victory being crushed knowing how easily they can lie. Your W looks classic too, if it wasn't so painful it would be funny what they think they can get away with.
I can't see myself being an investigator for the rest of my life. There lies my problem with R.
On the topic of effort, WH just called to see if I was feeling better and to tell me he was going to a movie tonight so he would call our son early. I've been asking him to take me on a date since d-day, he has taken me once. Brought it up in MC two weeks ago, promised he would take me that week or the next. Never has. But has time to go to a movie with friends
I was thinking about dealing with the TT and perhaps the real issue isn't the TT,perhaps it's the realization that the problem is you are still even talking to the cheater and still carring what they did. That the only sane and rrasonanle course of action is to leave the cheater high and dry snd divorce them. Not waste anytime trying to R. Posted via Mobile Device
Egads, these examples are so frustrating to read. You guys must have the patience of saints.
I agree with Shaggy on this - cheaters have made lying an intrinsic part of themselves. They will not outright tell you anything, out of fear of incriminating themselves.
This is why I tend to be biased against reconcile - not only can you not trust a cheater as a result of the betrayal/affair, but you can't trust a cheater because they will never be forward and honest with anything regarding the affair afterwards, unless they're hit with verifiable facts from the get-go.
You're right Shaggy, I am coming to the realization it might not be worth it. I have been willing to consider R because he has done a lot of things right. Gave me no problem about NC letter, STD test, going to regular AA/NA meetings, staying clean, total transparency, set up MC...never has blamed me for the A in any way. He is a good father. I have always believed he is a good man, but his addict is evil. I have wanted to give him a chance to be that good man now that he is sober, for my son more than anything. But I am at my wits end.
I re-read my thread and was thinking WTF...why would anyone put up with this sh!t?? Time to do some serious thinking...
I agree Jibril, always protecting themselves first and their first instinct is to lie. Same with the addict, so I've got the double whammy H says he is working on stopping but it is hard and he doesn't even realize he does it. I can't even fathom that.
Look, answers like "hardly ever" are subjective. I dissagree that he is TT you with answers like that. If you get an incomplete answer or one open to interpretation, clarify it. But quite frankly, what does it matter whether "hardly ever" is once a day or once an hour? It seems he is cooperating with your request in the recovery. You don't report that he is stonewalling or lying with his responses. You need to decide what it is you want and need from him and then determine whether you are getting it. But, don't drive yourself crazy over inconsequential things.
"When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?"
This was the exact statement my STBXH made when he refused to return to MC. That was before I knew about the A, but we were having other issues. When the MC gave him examples of how he was deflecting my concerns, or attempting to negate my pain, he hit the roof. I have no idea if the A was going on at the time or not. Clearly he was in major avoidance mood, but I honestly think he was trying to avoid admitting that his actions caused someone else to be in pain.
It sure sounds like some of the same thing is going on with your H. Lack of candor and avoidance can't possibly make for a meaningful R. Is that what you want?
iheartlife -
They are no longer co-workers, A started March 2011, she was fired in August, d-day February 2012.
KanDo,
I love your name btw, was the slogan for a company I used to work for.
You brought up a good point, and I often think I am being picky and not giving him a fair shake that he is trying. There is a laundry list of things I know he has flat out lied about and things I don't know he has lied about but don't pass the BS meter. When we first went through my questions, I did not have the backbone yet to question his answers too strongly. Now they are driving me crazy and I want to give him a chance to re-answer them but I'm not sure if the time is right yet.
The biggest lie he has been telling me that I know is untrue is what their text messages and calls were about. He says 95% were about drugs. I can't go back and read them, but I know it's about 50-50. He's not texting her about drugs at 1AM, he's not after he already got them from her earlier in the day, and he's definitely not when he has told me she was out so he had to make a doctors appt to get pills but is still texting her 50 times that day, and 20 minute phone calls are not about drugs either. Does it really matter to me what they are about? No. I would accept the answer "you're right, that was not about pills", but the answer he gives me is "no, that was about pills". He has also told me multiple times he never took off his ring. When I said it was tarnished now, he said he did take it off when they had sex. Said that was conflicting info, he says he just remembered he took it off.
The red flags I see but have no real proof one way or another:
-They only kissed once at work. This is why I asked him about the work phone calls (which morphed into looking at her). Bad feelings about this.
-That he wore a condom. That is a general red flag on TAM anyway, it is increased by the fact that OW is past her child bearing years and that he said he knew for a fact she was clean. What would be the point in wearing one then?
-That they only had sex once. In a year. Hello common sense. Combined with OW telling me they had sex once but described a different time than WH did and the pattern of texts/calls when I would be out of town.
I know I am letting the little things get to me because they lead me into these big things. Or are they big things? Am I making mountains out of mole hills and should just be happy he is willing to talk to me about all this??
iheartlife -
The biggest lie he has been telling me that I know is untrue is what their text messages and calls were about. He says 95% were about drugs. I can't go back and read them, but I know it's about 50-50. He's not texting her about drugs at 1AM, he's not after he already got them from her earlier in the day, and he's definitely not when he has told me she was out so he had to make a doctors appt to get pills but is still texting her 50 times that day, and 20 minute phone calls are not about drugs either. Does it really matter to me what they are about? No. I would accept the answer "you're right, that was not about pills", but the answer he gives me is "no, that was about pills".
I would consider this 'small.' He is admitting that he didn't text about pills 100% of the time. But if he was using her in any way for drugs, it seems to me that even if the texting wasn't ostensibly about drugs, the net effect was that he was texting her about drugs.
Quote:
he never took of his ring
This is probably a lie, but not a lie that would bother me. I've never asked my husband that question. He was in an inappopriate relationship with another woman, for goodness sake, this is just my opinion but I don't give a fig if we wore his ring or not, it was a massive betrayal regardless and if he took the ring off it was to further a fantasy and a lie, it wasn't about me or the marriage anyhow.
Quote:
-They only kissed once at work. This is why I asked him about the work phone calls (which morphed into looking at her). Bad feelings about this.
You know they had sex. Again, I'm not sure why this bothers you. If he wouldn't admit to any sex, that's one thing. But he does, so how much he did or didn't kiss, well again, just my opinion, this wouldn't be something I would be fighting over.
Quote:
-That he wore a condom. That is a general red flag on TAM anyway, it is increased by the fact that OW is past her child bearing years and that he said he knew for a fact she was clean. What would be the point in wearing one then?
This is a lie (or not as the case may be) that has serious ramifications for your health. This is a lie to stake your relationship over and I completely agree that your gut feeling about it is likely the truth. The only thing I can think of is that SHE wanted protection from him. Is that farfetched? Perhaps not.
Quote:
-That they only had sex once. In a year. Hello common sense. Combined with OW telling me they had sex once but described a different time than WH did and the pattern of texts/calls when I would be out of town.
Very hard to almost impossible to believe, unless by "sex" they mean intercourse when their preferred activity was oral sex. Are they claiming they didn't have opportunities? I agree that this stretched credulity to the limits.
Quote:
I know I am letting the little things get to me because they lead me into these big things. Or are they big things? Am I making mountains out of mole hills and should just be happy he is willing to talk to me about all this??
Looking over your thread, some are tiny, some are huge. Get rid of the baggage that the tiny lies carry and focus like a laser beam on the huge stuff.
Thanks Pluto. It is amazing how many WS statements are exactly the same. My WH says he knows he committed the ultimate betrayal, yada yada yada, but he loses his cool (I say angry, he says annoyed) when I bring this stuff up. He routinely says my feelings are 'ridiculous' or smirks, although this has gotten better after he did it in MC and our MC ripped him a new one.
I see you wrote STBXH, I am guessing for a lot of the same things I am dealing with? When did you know enough was enough? Sorry you are going through the same thing
11Likes
Effort and trickle truth 
By writing "a few times a day"?? When I said that is an example of TT, he says I am trying to tell him what he can or can't say. WTF?!? I countered by saying if there is a specific answer to a question, and you answer it with an indirect answer I can interpret a million ways, you are not telling the truth. It is so frustrating. 
Does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the TT? I'm going to go crazy.
H says he is working on stopping but it is hard and he doesn't even realize he does it. I can't even fathom that.
