Even in my relatively short time here, I have noticed several stories where MCers have given some advice that seems at best fatuous and at worse dangerous and counter-productive.
Some seem to tell the cheated on spouse that the affair of their husband/wife was somehow THEIR fault, that they should not even bring the subject up again for fear of damaging the self-esteem of their spouse. Without any thought, it seems to me, for the damage to the self-esteem of the betrayed spouse.
Why could they give such fatally flawed advice?
Very poor training? That's possible.
Or -and I think this might be more likely- is the MCer a cheater, also? Are they projecting their inadequacies onto the relationship they are supposedly trying to repair? Or just thinking: "Hey! I got your back, fellow cheater!"
Seeking advice from a cheater would be like a smoker desperate to quit being counselled by a person who constantly blows smoke in their face.
But how to know if the MCer is a cheater and therefore likely to offer such fatally flawed advice?
Good point; how do you really know their motives? I guess we take a chance. We have had 4 sessions and I sit there sometimes wondering what this guy makes of us both - does he think we will be a couple that makes it? Does he tell his partner/wife afterwards what idiots we are? Does he think that an EA is better than a PA? I really struggle with the whole concept!
Like most things in life, it is probably all down to chance, you have got to hope that you stumble on a good/decent MC maybe???!!
I think it's just that there are so many different theories about it and new "ideas" out there. Some counselors seem to need to have a theory or point of view that they adhere to no matter the facts. We had one that thought an EA was fine, nothing to complain about, as long as it didn't go PA. She followed this theory (and had books on it) that said that a WW hadn't done wrong until she had a PA, and even then she should be "validated in her choice" for some reason I never understood.
Some are just lacking in values themselves. We had another counselor, rec'd through our church, who told us flat out that "adultery isn't the worst thing in the world" and was generally dismissive of it as a problem. My wife loved hearing this until he began actively hitting on her and leering at her after a few weeks. Then she was as eager to leave that counselor as I was. There are all kinds out there and any counselor will tell you that sometimes a counselor is the one most in need of counseling, though many others are very good.
Good Dog, I think your story of the lecherous MCer helps towards proving my point. Not only was he a cheater he wanted to cheat with one of his clients! Did you tell your church about his unethical habits?
Good Dog, I think your story of the lecherous MCer helps towards proving my point. Not only was he a cheater he wanted to cheat with one of his clients! Did you tell your church about his unethical habits?
If I'd had something solid to go on then maybe I would have told someone about him. But we weren't sticking around (we've moved to my wife's home town) and I had no way to prove anything about this guy. He was both a counselor and in the ministry and so had a lot of respect. In terms of his opinion about adultery being "not so bad" he'd expressed that opinion publicly on two occasions I knew of and most people thought that was just fine. I guess it is when you're thinking of it abstractly rather than having been on the receiving end of things. At any rate, I was just looking to leave it all behind, jobs, "friends", and that town and just move on.
If I'd had something solid to go on then maybe I would have told someone about him. But we weren't sticking around (we've moved to my wife's home town) and I had no way to prove anything about this guy. He was both a counselor and in the ministry and so had a lot of respect. In terms of his opinion about adultery being "not so bad" he'd expressed that opinion publicly on two occasions I knew of and most people thought that was just fine. I guess it is when you're thinking of it abstractly rather than having been on the receiving end of things. At any rate, I was just looking to leave it all behind, jobs, "friends", and that town and just move on.
Then I think just letting that go was probably the right thing. However, his place on the Karma bus (in it or under it!) is surely booked!
Then he or she should say: before I start you session, there's something I need to tell you..."
I guess you are right.
I am in for a new round of IC myself, and now, thanks to your question, I ask myself; do I want someone who has been involved in infidelity or not, and if "yes", should it be one who was on the "giving or receiving" end of the experience.
Then I think just letting that go was probably the right thing. However, his place on the Karma bus (in it or under it!) is surely booked!
I like to think that. I just don't understand why so many people seem to think that infidelity is funny or even fun. I guess until you've faced it yourself it's all just a laugh or something. Maybe this guy was no different. Even my wife to this day, for all her efforts at R, still seems to think that there's something about her EA that I'm just too serious about and I've heard that from others. And of course the men who've pursued my wife over the years must have thought nothing of it, or I hate to think they did know how much damage it causes but did it anyway. Maybe these counselors just play to the public perception that some people have that the whole thing is just fun and games, I don't know.
Being the cheated spouse hurts your psyche and your soul.
"Wasn't I man/woman enough for my spouse?"
"What did I do that drove them to the arms of someone else?"
"God, they are the most special person in my life, and they chose to give that specialness to someone else? I must be a really bad person for them to do that to me."
Any MC who does not understand those feelings of self-loathing and self-hatred in the mind of the cheated spouse and who does not help the cheater to see the horrible damage they caused to the person they claim to love really should not be an MCer.
HA HA was talking to my wife about her IC and she said the counselor had been married several times(she's a woman) now my wife is there for her issues not for MC but I thought it was funny as this woman will be helping her with the issues that contributed to the cheating. Not to say this woman's relationships had any infidelity in them just a bit funny.
My FWH and I went to a bad MC. I still get rather frustrated and angry about it. He, more than my FWH and I ever could, brushed right past my H's emotional affair as if it were nothing.
Questions he should have asked:
how long was the affair
how did it start
what happened during the affair
what did you discuss / talk about with the AP
how did you maintain communications
and most importantly
ARE YOU STILL IN CONTACT
My FWH and I just attended MC last night, I suspect it is one of our last sessions (maybe we'll go 2 or 3 more times but I see it winding down). He was appalled at our descriptions of how our old MC had handled things.
He's really a terrific counselor and I wish everyone could find someone this good.
His favorite book is The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work by Gottman (he likes to say the book will put him out of business) and of course he recommends Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.
I’m new here and haven’t even posted my own intro yet. But I’m not new to being a BS. I’m not an expert, but here’s my take on it, based upon my own personal experience; and this is a subject about which I feel very strongly, so here I go up on my soapbox:
Always, always, always be your own best advocate. Listen to your gut. If it doesn’t sound right…if it doesn’t feel right to you…you do have a right to challenge the therapist and even fire the therapist.
As in any industry, not all of them are good. Not all of them know what they are talking about. It can be trial and error to find a good one, and to find the right one. Having a degree does not make them God.
My H’s second therapist told me that I shouldn’t be upset by his wandering eye. That I was insecure about his wandering eye due to my FOO. That I should just be able to laugh it off. AS IF! I was boiling mad after that one and only session I attended with my H. I felt outnumbered, and as if I had just been circled by the wagons. The 2 of them with their mindset, against mine.
When I shared what happened with my IC, she told me it sounded like my H’s IC was a s*x addict himself. At the very least, my H’s IC was enabling. I thought to myself, “No wonder nothing has changed. No wonder things aren’t getting any better.”
After that, things really came to a head between my H and I. He came to me and said, “I need your help. I can’t stand living like this. I can’t stand the way things are between us. What can I do to make things better?”
A short time later, I handed him a list of area SATs and CSATs. I told him that as long as he stayed with his current enabling therapist who was more than likely an addict himself, nothing would change, and therefore, nothing would get any better between us. In fact, things would only continue to deteriorate between us. I told him, “No wonder you like this guy. He approves of what you do!”
Things are still bad between us, but at least with the CSAT, some things did change for the better, and some things did improve. My H now has a better understanding of how what he does affects me, though there are pros and cons to this. When Dr. Jekyll is around, this knowledge allows him to be more empathetic, and therefore, more respectful and courteous. When Mr. Hyde is out, this knowledge causes him to be more sadistic, and therefore, he acts out intentionally in an effort to hurt my self-esteem. Mr. Hyde gets off on hurting others, b/c it allows him to feel superior, which in turn feeds his ego. The misfortunes of others give Mr. Hyde great pleasure. And, Mr. Hyde gauges the level of love someone has for him by how much he can hurt them. The more he is able to hurt them, the more they must love him.
The BS must stay strong and must stick to his/her guns, when something is that important. Some of these therapists are enabling, and when they are, it’s important to recognize that, and then to do something about it. Therapists are not gods. They are people like us. They can make mistakes, and they can be mistaken. They do not always have all the answers. They do not always have the right answers. When they don’t, they can end up doing more harm than good. I do not always take what they say at face value. I have to honor my own morals and values first, which don’t necessarily align with theirs.
Some of them can be very b&w, but I’ve learned that what works for one client, doesn’t necessarily work for all. There are just too many variables involved, when you’re dealing with the human brain, emotions, and mental health in general, besides all the differences between people, their upbringing, their genes, and their current backgrounds and situations.
I’ve learned that a lot of “MCs” and “s*x therapists” are a bit too liberal for me. What might work for other couples throws salt into the wounds of a BS and causes more damage to an already damaged union. A therapist must be empathetic to a BS’s cause, and not so much to a WS’s issues (I get that empathy is necessary on both sides, though for different reasons). Validation of very hurt feelings is necessary, IMO, before a BS can begin to let those go.
Even if you’re not necessarily dealing with a s*x addict, I feel that an SAT or a CSAT is the best qualified to help with betrayal. They understand very well the devastation that a BS feels. They are able to provide that much-needed validation that can pave the way to start healing.
However, the problem for my H and I was and is due to the fact that my H has been resistant to changing for the better. Therefore, no amount of counseling is going to help him. He claims he wants to be helped – he claims he wants to change – yet he hasn’t done much in the way of changing, and he has been in therapy for the past 4 years. I believe his s*x addiction is a symptom of something much larger, but that’s another story for another day in a new thread.
Bottom line, if the WS isn’t remorseful, no amount of therapy, even with the right therapist, is going to change a thing. I know that resistance can be present initially, but if after a time it doesn’t melt away, your marriage is doomed, like mine is. If 4 years in therapy go by, with 4 different therapists, and your marriage is STILL struggling, take that as a sign that things are probably never going to improve enough for you to want to stick around.
And if you’re dealing with a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde personality, like I am, and Mr. Hyde won’t stop coming around, your marriage is doomed in that instance as well. Therapy can be helpful, and therapy is usually necessary, but if the WS isn’t really interested in changing, then nothing at all is going to change, as far as the WS and your marriage go.
P.S. – Our CSAT told us up front at our first session that he was a recovering s*x addict. Since he’d been in recovery for 20+ years, much of it was behind him. He was able to offer the benefit of his experience as a WS, so my H wasn’t able to get anything over on him, since he already knew how they thought; and he was able to offer me his empathy, as learned both through seeing what his actions had done to his own wife (who stayed with him) and through his own recovery. I usually felt validated after a session with him; but since my H would not change, he often felt beat up after each session. It never worked for us, b/c my H wasn’t genuinely remorseful, and he wasn’t genuinely empathetic to me. There was some change, but there wasn’t enough change. IMO, that had nothing to do with the CSAT and everything to do with my H. I mean, he’s moved from one therapist to another, and different types of therapists, but so far, the one who made the biggest dent was the CSAT. He could have made an even bigger dent, if my H would have allowed it; and if my H had opened himself up to the gifts laid out before him.
Most SATs and CSATs offer both IC and MC and offer services to both the BS and the WS. Many of them are also recovering addicts themselves, but I believe in most cases, this proves to be beneficial vs. damaging (depending on how well they themselves have done in recovery). I would say if the WS is male, stick with a male therapist, and vice versa. But no matter what, if the therapist is too provocative, find another one, b/c you don’t need that running interference.
Sometimes those in the same boat, such as a therapist also being a cheater, are able to offer the best advice. They just aren’t always able to follow their own advice.
Okay, down off my soapbox…hope everyone is successful in finding the right therapist who works for them.
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Just a thought on bad MCing 
