highwood

I ask because sometimes I would love it if H would say something negative about his AP..the only thing he said was yes there is a chance she might have been using me. I would love it if he would run her down...but he doesn't and that kind of ticks me off. Is it normal for the WS to not want to say anything bad/negative about their AP?

joe kidd

I wouldn't want her to. It says to me she is thinking of him. Good or bad I don't want her thinking of him.

__________________
Jealousy, turning saints into the sea. Swimming through sick lullabies. Choking on your alibis

Zanna

My H has badmouthed OW because she was emotionally blackmailing him prior to D-day (threatening to tell him about the A if he didn't leave me) so he said it became painfully obvious that she was selfish, entitled and clearly crazy. And he realized that she truly didn't care about him as a person. She only cared about him because he was her ego boost and she was incredibly needy to boot.

And OW actually told my H she was going to ruin his life. Of course in the same breath, she would also say she could make him happy and I could not. That they were good together, etc. Then she'd go back to telling him that he owed her and ending the A to work on his M was unfair to her.

So after all that drama, if he didn't have a bad thing to say about her, I'd be worried. That said, he doesn't bring her up. He said thinking about her only reminds him what a loser he must have been to attract such a loser of a woman.

iheartlife

Yes.

I've finally come to terms with the fact that this isn't going to happen.

Our excellent MC managed to get this much out of my FWH in the last session: because their affair lasted such a very long time, he did on occasion see her 'not at her best.' Not dressed to the nines, and also emotionally not her best--touchy, irritable, frustrated.

But of course, not very much. The biggest component that keeps affairs afloat is their existence outside of reality. Both partners have a HUGE disincentive to disagree over ANYTHING. It stops being fun if all you're going to do is argue or show your bad side.

Affair partners don't usually have the ability to spend lots of time alone. They are conducting their relationship in the margins, in their spare time between doing work and taking care of a family and pretending to be faithful to you. (And all their other roles of child / sibling / friend / community member etc.)

There's another element, too. Infatuation is a biological trick that draws you toward another person. Here is how it works: it makes EVERYTHING about the other person attractive. They snort when they laugh? What could be cuter! They don't like your music--but they like some other kind that is interesting and exotic. Take anything about them that could possibly be annoying, boring, frustrating, or disagreeable, and flip it around to a positive. That's how infatuation works.

There is only one way to prove to your spouse that the AP is human too. That is for them to live together without you in the picture as a fallback (you divorced and moved on--while they have a fallback they will tolerate a whole lot more from their partner). Living together can cause rejection in as little as a few weeks, while in other cases people will slog it out for a few years. But eventually the vast, vast majority of these relationships will falter because they weren't based on the naked truth. (And many APs who do stay together do it because they can't bear to believe that they made a stupid choice and destroyed their prior relationship over a loser.)

It's true that most marriages begin (during the dating stage) with infatuation. So marriages can be based on this sort of denial of reality as well. But recall that two people who are dating have far more time to spend together than APs generally do. APs also often don't do other things that engaged people do--like meet everyone in each other's families. They also are careful not to share any of YOUR good qualities with the AP, something they'd discuss if they were unattached and just dating.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea; their relationship is untested by reality. It's a fantasy fairytale. You can't squeeze lemon juice out of cotton candy.

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally

Zanna

Yes, I've read this as well and it scared me to death.

Then I also read that sometimes the infatuation phase will fade if the A is longterm or if the OP becomes demanding, needy or annoying and ruins the fantasy.

Then the A becomes more trouble than it worth and the affairland fantasy bubble bursts.

I realize I'm very lucky in the sense that OW lost her mind and ruined her image for good. Although, my H did say he ended the A before she freaked out because he saw her for the annoying, needy person that she truly was and because his anger at me for our M problems was fading. Thankfully, she was never much of a fantasy A partner to begin with.

Anyway, I do think that as time passes and the WS falls back in love with their spouse, the good feelings of the A will also fade. And that helps ruin the fantasy as well.

iheartlife

This is essentially what happened to me. When I discovered they were STILL in their affair (I thought it was over) enough time had gone by that the bloom was somewhat off the rose (but not a lot, have to emphasize that--he didn't end it on his own). Meantime, I had gone about improving myself (for ME, not for him--I thought the affair was over).

I would never recommend outlasting the affair to anybody. If you actually KNOW they are still involved, it will destroy your self-esteem like nothing else. Some people do opt for this but I can't begin to conceive why.

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally

RWB

iheartL,

Your assessment is pretty much spot on. In a nutshell... living a life "outside of reality" pretty much sums it up well.

My wife serially cheated for years before being caught. The last affair with OM3 was fairly short but ramped up to full blown EAPA in a matter of weeks (old college BF). Due to having extensive emails, cell text, and FB message/chats, I really got to "see" the speed and extent that an infatuation works in.

My wife ran our marriage down to OM, in particular "a marriage that had no partnership... one that had built nothing together." My MC said that this was her way of justifying the affair. Regardless of truth, the ability to write it tells volumes (of what, not sure).

In your analysis, you allude to the fact that AP can't do the "normal" things that dating couples do to strengthen their relationship, ie meet in public, introduce each other to friends and family, in general experience life outside a hotel bed. However, maybe they really don't want to.

A little to much reality would sour the fantasy cool-aid perhaps. That being said... it seems today that with email, text, FB and such that a virtual relationship with an occasional hookup at the hotel no-tell strings along affairs now more than ever.

canttrustu

During the A one of the ways I became aware of her was that he started to mention her ALOT. OW this, OW that. She hates facial hair, she thinks this, she does that, she said this etc. SO it came to the point where I said "I dont give a flying F about OW" to him.

Now, about 4.5 months past dday I long to NEVER hear her name again. Good or bad. Just never. I dont want to think of her. I dont want HIM to think of her. Thats my utopia. So NO, I dont want him to run her down. I wouldnt believe him anyway. I would think he was just saying what I wanted to hear. I want him to never say her name again. For the most part-he doesnt unless I mention it first. Even then he only says "she" never calls her by name. To me the less of my life thats about her, the better.

highwood

It is funny as well..I know H and I rarely use her name..there is something uncomfortable about using it.

I guess I should look at it like that instead of wondering why can't he say anything bad about her..just let it go and realize that it is better to say nothing about her.

I think too that because the AP is usually very flirtatious, complimentary to the WS that of course the WS feels positive feelings toward this person. When someone pays you a compliment immediately you like them..that is only normal.

Zanna

I completely agree. It would destroy my emotional and physical health to do that...

If I had found out about my H's A before it was over, I would have been his worst nightmare and OW's as well. I would've never competed with her or waited patiently while he "decided". I know myself well enough and if he had picked her over me, I'd have been gone and would've never looked back. Even if I wanted to R after that out of love, I wouldn't have been able to get over it. Picking me before I knew, actually gave him a shot at earning my forgiveness.

I know to this day, my H is still surprised that I didn't kick him out on D-day because he said that he would have bet money that I would have which is why OW's threats were so effective. And then he was even more surprised when he asked (or rather begged) me to at least try R and I agreed after much contemplation. I have of course changed my mind about a dozen times but here we still are 9 months later.

jorgegene

personally even though we're finished i cant wait for theyre first argument, the bloom to fall off, or the OM man to finally realize what her needs (shes got VERY serious physical issues severe spinal degeneration which im sure he doesnt know) are and to run away.

on one level i know i shpuldnt care cause my m isnt worth saving.
shes a serial cheater.

but unfortunatley i do care. i cant get passed it yet.

iheartlife

This is our situation, too.

My H was very wounded by the state of our marriage before. If I had to take it to a subconscious level, he had to do something worse than I ever did so that he was the one who had to be forgiven, instead of me. Affairs are twisted ways of being--the duality, the betrayal.
Posted via Mobile Device

Zanna

I can relate to this as well.

My H felt rejected by me and honestly, he was. I was contemplating divorce (even bought the book) and had emotionally and sexually rejected him long before the A. That said though, I did try to reach out to him prior to withdrawing and he didn't want to listen. He wanted to rug sweep. He was relatively happy, in love with me and I don't think his ego could take the rejection. I see us as equally to blame for our troubled M but I do think that by suggesting MC, reading books and trying to communicate, I at least tried to solve things in the more mature way. Resorting to an A was all on him and unfortunately when the Karma bus hit him, it ran over our entire family as well.

However, blaming at this point does not do either of us any good so I am trying to focus on the future. After all, do I want to be happy or do I want to be right?

highwood

In my case I was the rug sweeper..H would try and come to me with his concerns re: my lack of affection, no intimacy, feeling like we were roomates, etc. and I didn't want to deal with it. It made me uncomfortable to talk about senstive subjects. I so regret being like that...I could kick myself for not realizing what he was going thru and instead just thinking we would just exist.

I remember thinking he would never leave me...it seems so arrogant on one hand but I don't think that is the frame of mind I was in, it was more just a very very way too comfortable level in my marriage. Definently I felt like I had a roomate and not a husband for many years..I just chose to live with those feelings and not do anything about it.

Zanna

Hindsight is always 20/20 right?

The only thing you can do now, is recognize your mistakes and go forward with forgiving yourself for not being perfect. After all, who among us was the perfect spouse?

Anyway, I do think I eventually became a rug sweeper myself and was resigned to just live with my negative feelings so I get it. I threw myself into my career and ignored my M and we too became friendly roommates. I think I also felt my H would not truly leave me and I guess I was right about that because he said he couldn't do it and would have never done it but I would have rather had him leave than have an A!