I'm sorry for my rambling above when you asked for advice of what to say: Things my husband says that make me feel better and why I haven't left. How sorry he is for the pain he caused and is causing me, how he wishes he could go back in time and see what he had, how I am the most important everything in his life and will place me first above everything and everyone.
I am on a rollercoaster of extreme highs and lows. When he senses a low, he repeats the above and tells me we are not going to let us go down the slope.
And it works for a while...........but yet here I am at 4:40 in the morning [sigh].
My slip ups are usually an attempt at getting closer. I try, for instance, to be as open an honest with her as I can. I tell her everything so she doesn't think I'm hiding anything. Here's an instance:
I was on the road and we had a long work stretch and the last night we went out and had a few. Pretty rare for me, actually. Anyway, there was this young girl in the bar who was all over everybody and she ended up all over me. I was tipsy, but I didn't do anything inappropriate. After talking with her a while, she wanted me to take her home. I suggested she call someone to do that because she was way too drunk and she did. Her angry sister came in, scowled at us all and took her away.
I told my wife this story the next day when I was well hung over, and she got very upset with me. For telling her. She said she didn't want to know about stuff like that. I had no idea. I was just sharing a story, but it was the WRONG thing to do. I don't have a proper sense of what those things are with her or WHY that's something she doesn't want to know. It's all honesty in my book, but I don't know the boundaries.
Things like that. Good intentions, but the wrong actions.
I guess I should question- HOW you told her this story
it may have come across as you bragging that you could have bedded this woman and you are making "sacrifices" to be with her
You're in a deep pile of trouble man. I feel your pain and your desperation. A woman's love is like a wine glass. Once it's broken its VERY difficult to put the pieces back together.
You need to stop using words and start simply BEING the man you want to be. You CANNOT talk your way out of this one. At some point continuing to beat yourself up in her eyes and say sorry does more harm than good. It sounds to me like that point has long since passed. Start saying less to her, ESPECIALLY about this whole issue. Don't initiate convos on the topic. If she does, just listen to her, empathize. Be Cary Grant when she's talking.
Words can only rebuild trust a tiny amount. The rest has to be achieved through action, usually over a long period of time. Past a certain point, more analysis, more remorse is just a turn off. You've already got whatever little trust rebuilt you could gain from your words, you already bought your chance. Additional talking just shows weakness and kills attraction. Now, your talking is beginning to kill your chance. You recognize this yourself, she's calling you a manipulator. It's easier for her to deal with leaving a manipulator than a desperate man, easier on her conscience.
She is invested in you but you're giving her a deep beta vibe and she is INSTINCTIVELY wired to reject that. You can give her the best rational arguments in the world, you could be frickin EINSTEIN and she would reject everything you say. She already has divorce in mind. She doesn't tell you because she doesn't want to hurt you. She doesn't want you to become more beta than you are already acting. You have to shut up and simply start BEING a trustworthy man. STAY QUIET! She will wonder what changed. And believe me, she wants to believe you've changed. She wants to FEEL a change.
Trust is rebuilt by regularly keeping small promises. You're in a very difficult spot, because keeping promises usually involves doing something FOR someone else. But this is going to appear APPEASING, SUPPLICATING and thus extremely BETA. (turn her off you big-time). So do not invent things to do for her. Do not run around trying to keep promises. Keep promises to YOURSELF and let her see you achieving them. Do things for YOURSELF. Example, tell her you're going to the gym at 3pm. Then come hell or high water. Make sure you ***in do it. Rinse, repeat. You'll be on the right path.
It takes a long time. If she moves ahead with separation, DO NOT TRY TO S
Seenthrume:
As a betrayed spouse I have to disagree with SOME of the above advice, particularly the beta male vibe thing.
IMO, that's hogwash. My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially.
He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again.
IMO, he needs to act a little Beta so I can see him as husband material again, instead of as a potential cheater who woman throw themselves at.
He does not want the divorce, but he does not apologize enough. Also, you can't possible apologize enough. It will not make her disrespect you. It is needed. You need to grovel a bit after being a cheater and breaking marriage vows.
After all simply taking you back is a very humiliating experience for the faithful spouse so a groveling on your side is a good thing, not a beta thing.
Now if you were the betrayed spouse I would agree that you need to start acting alpha.
unfortunately, it's impossible for you to give her what she wants. No matter what you do or say, you can't undo your actions.
And that's it in a nutshell. More talking = more emotional pain. Seenthrume, stop talking about making things right already! You are trying TOO HARD. You CANNOT talk your way out of this. You CANNOT *SORRY* your way out of this. You CANNOT BUY your way out of this, which you are trying to do by your actions. She can tell. And she's right. All of these actions are now hurting you. Live as though you are trustworthy. Just live, be strong and happy. The more you talk about an issue that is painful to her, seenthrume, the more you push her away. She sees you trying hard - the consequence is that she gets a RATIONAL feeling that she OUGHT to try with you... but at the same time she gets EMOTIONAL feeling that's BLEH about you. In love, emotions win. period.
Most of what I've done to make things right can be found in my actions. I set up the counseling, I left my computer at home when I went on the road, I called and talked to her several times a day while traveling, I don't argue with her points of view in this matter, I got rid of every old girlfriend/fling/whatever out of my life. Any female friends I do have, I had her meet so she could get to know them , get a feel for them, get a sense of my relationship with them so she could feel comfortable knowing them as people and not ghosts in some other life of mine.
I gave her an open book of my life. She has every password to everything I have....email, Facebook, phone password, credit card accounts, forums I belong to...everything. We bought a house together and when the realtor insisted that I put my name on the house alone to get a better finance rate, I would not budge from getting her on it with me. We pay half a point higher in interest because of it, but I don't care because it's the right thing to do.
My wife is a bit of a slob. I am the one who keeps the home clean. I clean up after her and her 15 yr old son, who lives with us. I take on the role of step dad to the best of my ability and never complain about it. It's part of taking care of my family.
The trouble STARTS when we talk. If I bring something up, it usually doesn't last long. She gets defensive or I get misunderstood and it ends before it starts. We do ok in therapy, but not on our own. If she voices something and I respond incorrectly, which I usually do, then it's back to me being a master manipulator to get what I want and I don't understand anything, she gets hurt, openly voices that I don't actually love her, that I'm more interested in winning than solving anything and that's it.
We had about a 1/2 hour conversation today, which is pretty good for us, and during that, she expressed how disappointed she was that I didn't approach her more. She tells me that for the last 2 years she's been putting on a fake smile during the day, completely checking out during sex (as she put it, pretending I'm the person she knew before all this happened) and longing for me to eventually say the right thing. I know all of this, but she gets very offended when I bring it up and the conversations go NOWHERE.
When I ask her what it is that she wants, she tells me, very simply, that she wants what happened never to have happened. She wants the man she fell in love with and wanted to marry before this happened. Now, am I talking too much or not enough? The latter, I'd say, except, I don't actually know WHAT to say.
Your actions have gone beyond remorse, wanting to make things right. They have shifted into panic, desperation, rationalization, pleading, appeasement and supplication. That's why you're losing her. A desperate man is a deeply unattractive man.
My slip ups are usually an attempt at getting closer. I try, for instance, to be as open an honest with her as I can. I tell her everything so she doesn't think I'm hiding anything. Here's an instance:
I was on the road and we had a long work stretch and the last night we went out and had a few. Pretty rare for me, actually. Anyway, there was this young girl in the bar who was all over everybody and she ended up all over me. I was tipsy, but I didn't do anything inappropriate. After talking with her a while, she wanted me to take her home. I suggested she call someone to do that because she was way too drunk and she did. Her angry sister came in, scowled at us all and took her away.
I told my wife this story the next day when I was well hung over, and she got very upset with me. For telling her. She said she didn't want to know about stuff like that. I had no idea. I was just sharing a story, but it was the WRONG thing to do. I don't have a proper sense of what those things are with her or WHY that's something she doesn't want to know. It's all honesty in my book, but I don't know the boundaries.
Things like that. Good intentions, but the wrong actions.
Why were you at the bar in the first place? Why would you let some tramp hang all over you at all? You drew the line way too late. You don't say "now that we've been flirting all night, sorry no thanks" instead, with the first flirty talk out of her mouth you should say "sorry taken, bye". So you DID do inappropriate things....not nipping it in the bud soon enough; allowing yourself to be in that situation at all.
These are not the actions of a guy who feels bad about hurting his wife. You don't seem to feel remorse.
Here is the thing, you did something good there -- you told your wife about the inappropriate behavior. Good.
But, you're still doing the inappropriate behavior! Whether it is a secret or in the open, it is wrong. She can't trust you because you're not trustworthy, do become trustworthy!
Stop hanging out at bars. Stop getting drunk around sleazy women. Then she will trust you not to screw her over, because you will be a guy who isn't walking into temptation.
Do you feel bad a out what you did? Do you understand what you have put your wife through? I don't think you get it. Truly. It seems like you're only upset that you got caught and you want her to be happy that you're admitting to be this guy that continues to disrespect her. Can you think about this for a minute?
How would you feel if your wife got provocatively dressed up and went to a bar and flirted with and responded to the attention of a bunch of guys? Would that make you feel wanted or loved? And if she'd already trolled for sex somewhere in the past and then did this flirt fest? Would you think it was excusable?
Actions speak louder than words. Are you really sorry about what you did? Can you talk a little more about why you did it?
You said you valued your pleasure only. Well, why? Why didn't you think about her first? Why wasn't she the source of your pleasure? The thing is, you're choosing other women and you still don't see that you haven't changed enough. Words aren't enough, you've gotta mean them. Think deeper.
As a betrayed spouse I have to disagree with SOME of the above advice, particularly the beta male vibe thing.
IMO, that's hogwash. My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially.
He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again.
IMO, he needs to act a little Beta so I can see him as husband material again, instead of as a potential cheater who woman throw themselves at.
He does not want the divorce, but he does not apologize enough. Also, you can't possible apologize enough. It will not make her disrespect you. It is needed. You need to grovel a bit after being a cheater and breaking marriage vows.
After all simply taking you back is a very humiliating experience for the faithful spouse so a groveling on your side is a good thing, not a beta thing.
Now if you were the betrayed spouse I would agree that you need to start acting alpha.
He needs to act a little BETA, you say. Seenthrume has acted a LOT beta so far and things are getting worse for him. Go figure. Every post of his is filled with Look what I've done/doing to make things right - why isn't she accepting my apology? She DOESN'T FEEL it for him anymore, that's why. Seenthrume, when she calls you a manipulator - that means she feels you are trying to BUY HER OFF by doing things for her. and she's RIGHT! By your actions and esp. your words you are making her feel ugh, his guy is trying to BUY me, he must therefore be LOW VALUE. You are triggering her instinctive rejection mechanism. You cannot TALK, APOLOGIZE or BUY your way out of this, no matter what any woman tells you.
Men are often conflicted but women are NATURALLY conflicted. Rationally, they want apologies. Rationally they want to be empowered. Rationally they want the attention and the groveling. Emotionally, you WILL lose them if you go overboard in giving them these things. Emotionally you lose respect. Emotionally they want YOU to have the power.
>>Also, you can't possible apologize enough.
At some point soon, seenthrume is going to begin to resent the fact that his pleading is making things worse. He KNOWS its not making a difference. He knows things are getting worse. That's why he's here! He just hasn't connected the two yet - he's making it worse.
He'll feel she OUGHT to accept his apology. He's done SO MUCH! Two years already! He will feel he has a RIGHT to another chance. He DESERVES another chance. When he doesn't get that chance, which will happen, if he continues as he is, he will likely move from genuine contrition and remorse to anger and resentment.
>>He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again.
If your stbeh isn't "whatever" about the divorce, he is NOT acting VERY ALPHA. Someone who was acting very alpha wouldn't give a **** what you thought, wouldn't waste time trying to make it work with one woman who doesn't want him, and would be in a new loving relationship or juggling 3 other women already, because he can have who he wants.
>>My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be ALPHA. Its a very common misunderstanding, so I don't hold it against you Good looks, physique, wealth. NONE of these have ANYTHING to do with being ALPHA. Any woman will tell you, that a guy can be the richest, most good-looking guy in the world, but he's only got to say ONE stupid thing to be a real turn-off.
>>I fear he will cheat again.
You don't trust him. You say he's acting alpha, yet to you, he is no longer ALPHA. So do you feel like he's alpha or not? Women trust ALPHA males, period. They give themselves and their bodies up willingly. Alpha does not mean CHEATER. Alpha does not mean RICH or GOOD-LOOKING. Alpha means PRO-SOCIAL and DOMINANT. Someone who is a cheater is not pro-social, they are a selfish jerk. Having the behaviors of a cheater is not alpha. Again I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be alpha. Your stbeh is not acting that way, THAT"S why you are rejecting him.
I disagree with the posts telling you to be more alpha. You're going to come across as too cavalier. That will up the repulsion factor after your cheating.
However, in trying to talk your way into getting her forgiveness, you're being too pushy. When she doesn't want to talk, drop it. You hurt her, so you have to help her heal at her rate and not at yours. Take her lead in that.
I think you should just work on actions more. If you treat your marriage like it is the most sacred thing you have, then your actions will show that you're protecting it. Let's say that you own a museum full of magical stuff with your wife. While she's busy, a thief comes to the door trying to sweet talk her way inside. You don't talk to the thief for an hour before telling her to get the eff away, you immediately tell the thief to get away. The tramp in the bar is the thief here. Why would she trust you enough to be her partner if she can't trust the way you safeguard the museum? If you believe that what is in the museum is valuable, then you will behave in a manner that shows is, you will be proactively protective of it. This would show your wife that you care. Talking to thief doesn't show that.
You're responding to what you think she needs, not to what she actually needs. She's waited for two years for you to figure it out and you haven't yet so she is beginning to believe that you never will. Now is the time to figure things out before she bails on you for good.
Figure out what her actual needs are and only then can you tell if you can meet them! Read the "His Needs Her Needs" book with her. Talk about each chapter with her. Read the "love languages" book and talk to her about it. Don't keep talking your way out of what you did because you're going to look like a guy who is making excuses. Move FORWARD and try to improve your relationship and yourself.
And that's it in a nutshell. More talking = more emotional pain. Seenthrume, stop talking about making things right already! You are trying TOO HARD. You CANNOT talk your way out of this. You CANNOT *SORRY* your way out of this. You CANNOT BUY your way out of this, which you are trying to do by your actions. She can tell. And she's right. All of these actions are now hurting you. Live as though you are trustworthy. Just live, be strong and happy. The more you talk about an issue that is painful to her, seenthrume, the more you push her away. She sees you trying hard - the consequence is that she gets a RATIONAL feeling that she OUGHT to try with you... but at the same time she gets EMOTIONAL feeling that's BLEH about you. In love, emotions win. period.
How exactly am I trying to buy or talk my way out of this? Nothing I am doing is an attempt at justifying my actions or pretend it didn't happen. I've stated very clearly that talking gets us nowhere, but she is very upset that I DON'T TALK MORE than I do. We try, but it fails every time. I am doing exactly as you suggest here. Just living. Just BEING the man I need to be. I don't talk about all the good I've done or defend myself when she gets upset at the situation, I just let her have that. I never stifle it.
Court her. Date her. Make her fall in love with you again, not by trying to atone and make excuses but just recognizing that you screwed up and now you want to make something new with her that's great. How would you win her heart if she were your college sweetheart? Show her how much you love her and how awesome she is. And mean it.
>>My willingness to forgo my own feelings, my own hurt and my own desperation for what she needs ...
You're not giving up what you need emotionally for yourself, your giving it up for her. You're trying to buy her.
>>We bought a house together and when the realtor insisted that I put my name on the house alone to get a better finance rate, I would not budge from getting her on it with me.
You argued over this? If so, she practically told you she sees no future for you both. Yet you forced her. It IS manipulative. You forsook the money to bind her to you and keep her close. Now you will see this as an expression of love. I'm telling you how SHE sees it - manipulative, supplicating and instinctively unattractive to her.
Seems you are waiting her out. Sorry, but that's how it reads. You have done all this work, you have embraced honesty, but in a very in-your-face way. You think differently than her. She does not trust you.
I don't really get the bar girl thing.....were you expecting her not to get upset by this? It seems like you are proud of yourself that you didn't "hook up" on CL or bed the woman in the bar......Your wife is not going to give you gold stars for this. You were so proud of being honest and "sharing" that info, yet it hurt her even more......and you don't seem to understand why.
Court her. Date her. Make her fall in love with you again, not by trying to atone and make excuses but just recognizing that you screwed up and now you want to make something new with her that's great. How would you win her heart if she were your college sweetheart? Show her how much you love her and how awesome she is. And mean it.
In this situation, women think they want this, but when the guy does it and they're still not feeling it for him, they are left wondering why.
>>My willingness to forgo my own feelings, my own hurt and my own desperation for what she needs ...
You're not giving up what you need emotionally for yourself, your giving it up for her. You're trying to buy her.
>>We bought a house together and when the realtor insisted that I put my name on the house alone to get a better finance rate, I would not budge from getting her on it with me.
You argued over this? If so, she practically told you she sees no future for you both. Yet you forced her. It IS manipulative. You forsook the money to bind her to you and keep her close. Now you will see this as an expression of love. I'm telling you how SHE sees it - manipulative, supplicating and instinctively unattractive to her.
You totally misread this. My wife and I both wanted to have our name on the house, but the realtor, not my wife, THE REALTOR was pushing to just put me on it. When we discussed it, we agreed that it would help us in our troubles. It was a way for me to show my commitment to her. We both agree on that. I only brought that up because of the assertions that I'm not taking any actions or am doing more talking than anything. That example was for the board.
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Re: Ok, I'm the bad guy 
Good looks, physique, wealth. NONE of these have ANYTHING to do with being ALPHA. Any woman will tell you, that a guy can be the richest, most good-looking guy in the world, but he's only got to say ONE stupid thing to be a real turn-off.
