She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want.
That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you.
Phenix, you hit the nail on the head.
seenthrume, you're still expecting your wife to tell you what to do and guide you through it rather than taking initiative. She sees you as this guy who will begrudgingly go along with what she's expecting, even though he isn't really bringing it to the table himself. She's carrying your emotional weight in the relationship.
She wants someone who wants to walk down the same road as her, not someone who she has to cajole and convince to walk down the road with her while his attention is wandering elsewhere, not someone who she has to drag behind her to keep him on the path. She wants a partner, not a burden or a child, someone who is also all in.
Do you want the kind of life she wants? Or, are you just going along with it because you want to be around her?
Do you modify your actions just to keep her happy? Or are you actually interested in being the way she is expecting you to be?
No one wants to feel like someone is begrudgingly going along with them in life, just tolerating them. If you went to a sports game, would you want the person at the sports game to be just kinda sitting there because they're trying to make you happy, or someone who is there because they're just as excited to be at the game as you are? In your wife's eyes, you're just sitting next to her biding your time until the game is over, going through the motions like you're expected to, even though you're actually apathetic...
She shouldn't have to be your guide or your boss or your mom or your babysitter. She shouldn't have to feel like you're only going to be trustworthy as long as she keeps an eye on you. Unfortunately, you're demonstrating that she can only trust you for as long as she can control or guide or keep an eye on you and that if she puts down the slack at all, you'll just run off and do something foolish again. You're asking her to be a mom, not a wife. The girl at the bar incident was more significant than you seem to think; it's indicative of the situation as a whole and your way of making choices and being in this relationship.
I disagree with the posts telling you to be more alpha. You're going to come across as too cavalier. That will up the repulsion factor after your cheating.
However, in trying to talk your way into getting her forgiveness, you're being too pushy. When she doesn't want to talk, drop it. You hurt her, so you have to help her heal at her rate and not at yours. Take her lead in that.
I think you should just work on actions more. If you treat your marriage like it is the most sacred thing you have, then your actions will show that you're protecting it. Let's say that you own a museum full of magical stuff with your wife. While she's busy, a thief comes to the door trying to sweet talk her way inside. You don't talk to the thief for an hour before telling her to get the eff away, you immediately tell the thief to get away. The tramp in the bar is the thief here. Why would she trust you enough to be her partner if she can't trust the way you safeguard the museum? If you believe that what is in the museum is valuable, then you will behave in a manner that shows is, you will be proactively protective of it. This would show your wife that you care. Talking to thief doesn't show that.
You're responding to what you think she needs, not to what she actually needs. She's waited for two years for you to figure it out and you haven't yet so she is beginning to believe that you never will. Now is the time to figure things out before she bails on you for good.
Figure out what her actual needs are and only then can you tell if you can meet them! Read the "His Needs Her Needs" book with her. Talk about each chapter with her. Read the "love languages" book and talk to her about it. Don't keep talking your way out of what you did because you're going to look like a guy who is making excuses. Move FORWARD and try to improve your relationship and yourself.
All good points:
Seenthrume:
If you want to get your wife back listen to the women here, not a man.
He needs to act a little BETA, you say. Seenthrume has acted a LOT beta so far and things are getting worse for him. Go figure. Every post of his is filled with Look what I've done/doing to make things right - why isn't she accepting my apology? She DOESN'T FEEL it for him anymore, that's why. Seenthrume, when she calls you a manipulator - that means she feels you are trying to BUY HER OFF by doing things for her. and she's RIGHT! By your actions and esp. your words you are making her feel ugh, his guy is trying to BUY me, he must therefore be LOW VALUE. You are triggering her instinctive rejection mechanism. You cannot TALK, APOLOGIZE or BUY your way out of this, no matter what any woman tells you.
Men are often conflicted but women are NATURALLY conflicted. Rationally, they want apologies. Rationally they want to be empowered. Rationally they want the attention and the groveling. Emotionally, you WILL lose them if you go overboard in giving them these things. Emotionally you lose respect. Emotionally they want YOU to have the power.
>>Also, you can't possible apologize enough.
At some point soon, seenthrume is going to begin to resent the fact that his pleading is making things worse. He KNOWS its not making a difference. He knows things are getting worse. That's why he's here! He just hasn't connected the two yet - he's making it worse.
He'll feel she OUGHT to accept his apology. He's done SO MUCH! Two years already! He will feel he has a RIGHT to another chance. He DESERVES another chance. When he doesn't get that chance, which will happen, if he continues as he is, he will likely move from genuine contrition and remorse to anger and resentment.
>>He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again.
If your stbeh isn't "whatever" about the divorce, he is NOT acting VERY ALPHA. Someone who was acting very alpha wouldn't give a **** what you thought, wouldn't waste time trying to make it work with one woman who doesn't want him, and would be in a new loving relationship or juggling 3 other women already, because he can have who he wants.
>>My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be ALPHA. Its a very common misunderstanding, so I don't hold it against you Good looks, physique, wealth. NONE of these have ANYTHING to do with being ALPHA. Any woman will tell you, that a guy can be the richest, most good-looking guy in the world, but he's only got to say ONE stupid thing to be a real turn-off.
>>I fear he will cheat again.
You don't trust him. You say he's acting alpha, yet to you, he is no longer ALPHA. So do you feel like he's alpha or not? Women trust ALPHA males, period. They give themselves and their bodies up willingly. Alpha does not mean CHEATER. Alpha does not mean RICH or GOOD-LOOKING. Alpha means PRO-SOCIAL and DOMINANT. Someone who is a cheater is not pro-social, they are a selfish jerk. Having the behaviors of a cheater is not alpha. Again I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be alpha. Your stbeh is not acting that way, THAT"S why you are rejecting him.
Get tough:
My STBEH tried the leaving thing and acting like he didnt care. 'It didn't work.
He tried to be dismissive and aloof and now realizes how badly that back fired. Oops.
Now he is acting remorseful but certainly not begging. He just says he doesn't want a divorce.
As for going out to get another woman.
He is rather selective. Also, he needs and emotional physical attraction to have sex.
That is why he had an EA/PA.
I guess you are not too selective and that's okay, but some men are.
In previous relationships you would start looking for another partner at some point. What point was that? Was it when you started to feel too connected to your gf? Was it when the relationship started to get comfortable and hence boring? Was it when you started to feel like you were losing yourself to her and the relationship? Was it when you thought you had tied her in enough that she would put up and forgive your selfish behavior of cheating?
Or is it a relief valve from the everyday issues of a relationship?
A lot of people are hooked on the love high when they are in the beginning of a love relationship. After a while the relationship settles down and a more mature, less heady feeling of love sets in. Then they start to still the heady feeling of early love and go looking for that. Or at least go looking for the excitement of sex with a stranger or someone new.
This is something that you might want to contemplate. If you can figure out your trigger in all your relationships for going looking for someone else, you will know why you did this in your marriage.
My STBEH tried the leaving thing and acting like he didnt care. 'It didn't work.
He tried to be dismissive and aloof and now realizes how badly that back fired. Oops.
Now he is acting remorseful but certainly not begging. He just says he doesn't want a divorce.
As for going out to get another woman.
He is rather selective. Also, he needs and emotional physical attraction to have sex.
That is why he had an EA/PA.
I guess you are not too selective and that's okay, but some men are.
I'm not saying OP should leave or act like he doesn't care. I'm telling him he's gone too far trying to persuade/convince/cajole her to try again already. He can still be available and show he cares, he's just got to knock it off on the theme of "why aren't you buying my sales pitch for myself already?".
OP should not be dismissive or reject her. I'm telling him to not initiate relationship discussion, and when SHE does, he should focus on listening and empathy.
>>I guess you are not too selective and that's okay, but some men are.
Damn and I was starting to think you were hot and then you said this.
I'm going to start with Elegirl, because she is making the most sense to me here. You ask the question at what point did I veer in past relationships. That is some laser like precision questioning. In fact that entire post is so exactly what I needed to hear, I could go forward with that as a solid foundation to discovery. All of the possibilities you present, even though they don't strike me immediately as whole truths, are great jumping off points. I could see them being true to some extent. I have done some work on this kind of thing, but I never seem to get anywhere so I let it go. I'm going to lean into the idea a little harder.
Everyone else, I appreciate all of your efforts to educate, encourage, console and otherwise help a stranger. Especially one who has wronged another. I need to catch up to the thread, so please let me respond to a few things before diving back in. I don't want to get discouraged by becoming overwhelmed.
The way that I feel about my WH is that I must have been conned by him before DD when I actually thought everything was going pretty well in our marriage and obviously it wasn't, but he "conned" me into believing that all was fine.....So fast forward to 3 months past DD and he is acting very remorseful, and is giving me all of his attention, I am the center of his universe again...should make me feel good and it does and it does help me heal, but in the back of my mind I catch myself wondering is this really who he is or is he just trying to "con" me, so I won't leave him, and so he can get what he wants...
My wife has this same concern. She is very good at introspection and has above average ability to voice her concerns and positions, so when this all happened, it didn't take long for her to question the veracity of my reasons for courting her. She feels that I wanted her so badly that I just said and did what I though she wanted to see and hear without actually meaning it. I did and still do mean it all, but obviously, I understand where this comes from. Irrespective of my steadfastness, she still really only sees the one instance as the truth rather than anything else I've said and done.
My therapist laid out the example that it would be like treating my family dog with undying love for 5 years, but then one day i came home and kicked her in the face as hard as I could without warning or explanation. If I come home for the next 5 years and treat her with the same love that I did before the incident, she would still probably fear me everytime I walked in the door because of that one time. That analogy I understand. I think of that when I get a little frustrated with her. I don't ever blame her for that. Believe me, I'm aware.
My life is about becoming the person I promised her I was, the person I hoped being married to her would emerge, the person who is worthy of her. I don't spend really any of my energy overtly pointing that out to her unsolicited to make me feel better about myself. I don't need to. I feel better about the choices I'm making and my work has been fruitful in ways that go beyond my own hubris.
Ok here's the deal. She is moving on. I thought she would. She is not playing. She has checked out and is done with you. The best thing you can do is move on with dignity too. Then put her out of your mind, focus on yourself. You need to begin to show strength now, non-neediness, to have any chance of getting her back. You need to start thinking about doing the 180. LET HER INITIATE ALL FIRST CONTACT, do not reject her, but instead react with understanding and non-neediness like Cary Grant. You need to stop trying to win her back, actions like that will only drive her away further and faster. Your remorse and attempts to win her back, albeit sincere, went beyond anything she was comfortable with. Do NO MORE in any effort to change her perception of you.
This!
From you've posted, the crux of why your wife is still upset is because if she hadn't found out about your CL trolling activites, you would have gone on & actually meet someone for sex.
She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want.
That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you.
Hence why she got pissed about floozie at the bar, her gut reaction was most likely "WTF, why do you put yourself in these situations" yet she told you she didn't want to hear because at the time she could not articulate her feelings.
Dollars to donuts, that was NOT about you not telling her things like that, it was about you being in the situation to begin with.
It is a big part of her problems with me, the "If I hadn't gotten caught..." bit, but it doesn't translate into her having to be my moral compass. What I did and the consequences endured have flipped a light on and got me sailing in the right direction. She does not have to be that compass. She may feel it, but it seems to be more out of mistrust than necessity.
One confusing thing about this, though, is she has given me several opportunities to retract the statement that if I hadn't gotten caught, I'd probably still be doing it. I can't stress enough that THIS EVENT was the thing that's gotten me to open my eyes. I don't feel I need the loss of my marriage to drive this home or to reappraise my life. I get it all the way around, I just seem to be unable to what she needs me to DO. I'm talking about what SHE TELLS ME she needs, not what I think she needs. I'm not guessing here, I know, but I keep doing it wrong. I just can't seem to figure it out.
It might, however, take the loss of my marriage for me to figure it all out.
Don't really follow this....let her go and let her move on in order to have a chance to get her back?
A guy pursuing a woman who has firmly lost interest compounds the loss of interest. Not only is it annoying and disrespectful (even frightening) to her it is WEAK. It sends the signal that you NEED her, i.e. because you can't get any other woman, i.e. that you are not a strong successful male who could have his pick. It also sends the signal that she is in control of your emotions. She has power over you. Both of these factors are extremely unattractive to women, on an instinctive level. They want strong, non-needy men.
Attraction is built by showing you are less attainable than she wants you to be. You CANNOT talk your way into her feeling differently towards you. You can only show her STRENGTH until she begins to FEEL it.
No. You are not taking responsibility. Instead of blaming your actions on your own poor decisions, you're blaming it on an external concept, "a fog that descended upon you and clouded your judgment". That isn't what the fog is. The fog is a term used to describe the behavior and attitude of a person who is in a cheating mind-frame which indicates delusional thinking that is based on pleasure-seeking or whatever rather than on realistic logic. It's good that you're starting to see how this is tied into your own behaviors, too.
You can say that you were in a fog, but....don't give yourself an "a-ha!" moment and think that acknowledging the bad is all that matters. You didn't find yourself doing something like a sleepwalker who wakes in a strange room; you consciously made some really bad decisions because your thinking was short-sighted. You need to fully accept the blame as yours. You need to stop excusing it. I don't even think you do realize that you're excusing it because you're not being a manipulative person here; I think you're just trying to deal with it. You did it because you were being an idiot. Now....why were you being an idiot? Really and truly think about it. Yes, you were in a fog. You were in one because something you did caused the fog to emerge and you stayed in it. If you can figure out what you did or why you did it, it might give you some personal insight and self-awareness about it. This would help you not do things like it in the future. If your wife sees your self-awareness improving, she might have more faith in you.
I agree with a LOT of what Elegirl wrote in her post. Your wife seems to be barely clinging to this hope that your behavior was motivated by something broken in you and not just your complete obliviousness to how valuable she is and to actual disrespect of her. Overbearing mom issues? Distant dad issues? These sometimes contribute to the framework through which we see the world. I'm not saying that's what's your situation, but it's not an uncommon one. Also, you really do need to learn about healthy boundaries because you don't have them and I think that contributes to your wife's feeling of frustration with you more than you realize.
You feel like you compensated these women for their time, in some way? Like any allegiance you had to them was paid back? I'm glad you're recognizing your selfish thinking. Why was your thinking selfish? Why were you unable to empathize with them in the relationship. Did you just see the relationship as a means to satisfy something that you needed and no more? Did you realize you were building a bond with another person? Consider these questions.
Exit affairs are common and often the impetus for ending something when you don't have the courage to say "hey, these problems, they're here and so I want to go away now because I don't want to deal with them". You have to look deeper into what the problems are.
You see that marriage didn't change you, but you had hoped that if you took certain steps, you would magically be transformed. You weren't. And you didn't know how to transform yourself, so you kept on going the way you were going before. That's how it seems to me. But, now you're in a situation where you don't like the results of your actions but you don't really see that you can change your actions in a big way yet. You need to change YOU. Changing the relationship will not indirectly change you. Changing the way your wife sees you and relates to you will not indirectly change you. You have to change yourself. I think you see this as a nebulous thing, but don't really understand it yet. So, yes, your thinking is still foggy. You're not in "Affair Fog" but you're in a kind of foggy headspace which isn't allowing you to see beyond yourself and your immediate ways of being in the world. You've got to think PAST that.
I'm glad that seeing this as a recognized phenomena helps you to see points of connection between you and your wife. I wanted to say though that Hysterical Bonding isn't like a step that everyone goes through and it isn't a magical thing that will fix what's wrong. It's a term to describe something that happens a lot. It's like when you suddenly realize that this person who you love and care about is almost gone and you did it and you don't want them to go away so you pour all your love and affection and everything out onto that person to try and hold together. And, of course when that feeling is reciprocated. It's a place where you set aside all the problems because you recognize that you want to be past them. But....more or less of it doesn't change anything. It's not a step or a level that you have to pass in order to get to a better place. You noticed that you wanted more of that. Could that possibly mean that you wanted to feel the desperation of possibly losing the person you loved, wanted your wife to feel it, too, and that you wanted that intense connection but didn't really know you wanted it? You're recognizing important things, but underneath those things is what's going to help you get through this and be who you want to be and give you a shot at salvaging your marriage, so look deeper!
I mean this as politely as possible -- Screw the diagnosis. Don't worry about diagnosing the problem. Worry about the problem. Worry about seeing the problem's parts and the ways in which the problem is a problem. You are worrying about the label that you put on the problem and that is like worrying about the packaging without worrying about what's IN the packaging. Set aside labels and terms and diagnoses. Instead, try and identify for yourself IN YOUR OWN words, what the problems are in your life. Not just the problems between you and your wife, but the problems between you and how you relate to other people, the boundaries you have between yourself and others, how you protect the things that matter to you. Figure out where the disconnections and messy spots are there and THEN worry about labels.
I don't know if any of this makes sense to you or helps you, but I hope it does.
A lot of misrepresentation here, so bear with me. About this fog business...
I never said anything about some mystical fog that I had nothing to do with just descending down on me. What you describe about behavior and attitude, a cheating mind frame and delusional thinking, that's exactly what I said. In my post, and more importantly in my life, I take full responsibility for all of it. The concept of living in that fog has never been raised to me before and when I finally read it, I found it a very useful and trenchant analogy. I don't like the idea of living an unclear existence, so the fog idea is a great mnemonic device.
My wife, indeed, does not see much growth or awareness in this regard. Me being on the road working. I think, has a lot to do with that because there is so much time for her brain to wander. Boy, does it ever wander. Much more so than she'll let on, and she lets on quite a bit. If I'm home for a month, she gets comfortable, but it gets quickly reset once I leave. the "I don't know what he's really up to for sure" thoughts. It may be the ultimate downfall of this whole thing.
This whole idea of something "broken" in me is really hard to get a hold of. Therapy had yielded some things that I was aware of, but was unaware of their impact on me. Trouble is, it's not happening fast enough for her. I have no time limits, but the further along we get, the more her limits become apparent. It's going to take however long it takes, but it may not be fast enough.
I do see that I can change my actions because I most certainly have. See, I know what the truth of "what I'm really up to" is. Just because she doesn't, does not mean it isn't happening. I notice it every day. Once I began instituting my behavioral changes and becoming happy with them, they are becoming more and more second nature to me. It's not hard. It's like people who act like children get turned into adults really quickly once they HAVE children. It took them being parents to grow up and leave behavior behind that would be destructive as a parent. There's nothing complicated about that. It's an event that changes a person and that's what this has been for me. I'm not all the way there, but I do rail against this assertion that I have not taken responsibility for my actions and have wholly immersed myself into self examination and behavioral change.
I just found the Hysterical Bonding thing very unnatural at first. Reading that it exists and what it means is refreshing and enlightening. I don't hold that any one thing will be our salvation in this, but there are so many things OUT of place, I'm happy to finally put something IN place. As I say, I wish I had known before. I would have embraced every second of intimacy with my wife instead of questioning it.
Finally, I would LOVE to let the diagnosis go never to return, but it is a simple fact that my wife is very impatient with my inability to do it. It's very important to her because she is so good at it. It is a source of untold frustration that things aren't as simple to me (and others) as they appear to her. I don't really care to do it, I only brought it up as a bit of a joke. I have total focus on the problem. It's very much the way I do most things. I never rely on conjecture or speculation or what people THINK they know about the human condition when it comes to individuals. My wife is the one that matters and even though I keep missing the point, I know it is her and I that I am dealing with. You will never hear me say "Well this person did this and that person reacted that way". I hate that s**t. I wouldn't want anyone to do it to me, so I don't do it to others.
seenthrume, you're still expecting your wife to tell you what to do and guide you through it rather than taking initiative. She sees you as this guy who will begrudgingly go along with what she's expecting, even though he isn't really bringing it to the table himself. She's carrying your emotional weight in the relationship.
She wants someone who wants to walk down the same road as her, not someone who she has to cajole and convince to walk down the road with her while his attention is wandering elsewhere, not someone who she has to drag behind her to keep him on the path. She wants a partner, not a burden or a child, someone who is also all in.
Do you want the kind of life she wants? Or, are you just going along with it because you want to be around her?
Do you modify your actions just to keep her happy? Or are you actually interested in being the way she is expecting you to be?
No one wants to feel like someone is begrudgingly going along with them in life, just tolerating them. If you went to a sports game, would you want the person at the sports game to be just kinda sitting there because they're trying to make you happy, or someone who is there because they're just as excited to be at the game as you are? In your wife's eyes, you're just sitting next to her biding your time until the game is over, going through the motions like you're expected to, even though you're actually apathetic...
She shouldn't have to be your guide or your boss or your mom or your babysitter. She shouldn't have to feel like you're only going to be trustworthy as long as she keeps an eye on you. Unfortunately, you're demonstrating that she can only trust you for as long as she can control or guide or keep an eye on you and that if she puts down the slack at all, you'll just run off and do something foolish again. You're asking her to be a mom, not a wife. The girl at the bar incident was more significant than you seem to think; it's indicative of the situation as a whole and your way of making choices and being in this relationship.
Again, I have never stated or ever believed that I expect my wife to tell me how to act or behave. When I say she saved me, I mean to say she was very harsh on me and got me to see myself in ways I didn't want to see. I am my own master when it comes to my actions. I know that. Nobody can lord over me and make me change. I have to want to do that and I do, so I have. Like a drug addict who has to WANT change. I know that. There is nothing at all like begrudgement going on with me as it relates to wanting to be THAT person. It's my main focus in life, but not just because she wants it. It's because it's right for me and it's what we NEED to be together and I WANT to be with her.
The bar girl seems like a real focal point here, but it's only ever been a problem the one time. It hasn't come up since the day it happened..yes...yes, I know...one time makes all the difference, there's no excuse etc, but that's not me saying that, it's my wife. Her main problems all have to do with things that happened before we were ever married and even before we even met. I focus on those because I am listening to what SHE is telling me. Those are the things I spend my energy trying to figure out, come to terms with, explain and incorporate. I am listening to what my wife is asking me to focus on and it's not the girl in the bar. She knows better than anyone, so I'm going with her on this one.
A guy pursuing a woman who has firmly lost interest compounds the loss of interest. Not only is it annoying and disrespectful (even frightening) to her it is WEAK. It sends the signal that you NEED her, i.e. because you can't get any other woman, i.e. that you are not a strong successful male who could have his pick. It also sends the signal that she is in control of your emotions. She has power over you. Both of these factors are extremely unattractive to women, on an instinctive level. They want strong, non-needy men.
Attraction is built by showing you are less attainable than she wants you to be. You CANNOT talk your way into her feeling differently towards you. You can only show her STRENGTH until she begins to FEEL it.
Well, not for nothing, but I DO need my wife. I didn't go through 40 years of life, building a career, wading through countless relationships and friendships only to come across a woman who I so desired, who's charms I was so unarmed against, who's laugh was so instantaneously infectious that it swims in my very blood, who's penchant for brilliance was so unmatched by the bulk of humanity, who's sense of conscientiousness was so finely honed that I would gladly forsake all other women for the opportunity to be with her forever, just to turn my back on her over the flimsy reasoning that I didn't want her to realize that I actually NEEDED her.
Well, not for nothing, but I DO need my wife. I didn't go through 40 years of life, building a career, wading through countless relationships and friendships only to come across a woman who I so desired, who's charms I was so unarmed against, who's laugh was so instantaneously infectious that it swims in my very blood, who's penchant for brilliance was so unmatched by the bulk of humanity, who's sense of conscientiousness was so finely honed that I would gladly forsake all other women for the opportunity to be with her forever, just to turn my back on her over the flimsy reasoning that I didn't want her to realize that I actually NEEDED her.
Guys on here have been through what you are going through. They know what works and what doesn't. You will find that my general philosophy, in particular doing the 180 is not just my opinion. It is WIDELY regarded as your best chance. If you choose to ignore the suggestions on here, that is certainly your right. But I am telling you now that you will NOT regain your wife's attraction for you by acting like a needy man.
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Re: Ok, I'm the bad guy 
Good looks, physique, wealth. NONE of these have ANYTHING to do with being ALPHA. Any woman will tell you, that a guy can be the richest, most good-looking guy in the world, but he's only got to say ONE stupid thing to be a real turn-off.
