My therapist laid out the example that it would be like treating my family dog with undying love for 5 years, but then one day i came home and kicked her in the face as hard as I could without warning or explanation. If I come home for the next 5 years and treat her with the same love that I did before the incident, she would still probably fear me everytime I walked in the door because of that one time. That analogy I understand. I think of that when I get a little frustrated with her. I don't ever blame her for that. Believe me, I'm aware.
If even one cheating spouse reads this in your thread and the lightbulb goes on, it will not all be in vain. Posted via Mobile Device
It is a big part of her problems with me, the "If I hadn't gotten caught..." bit, but it doesn't translate into her having to be my moral compass. What I did and the consequences endured have flipped a light on and got me sailing in the right direction. She does not have to be that compass. She may feel it, but it seems to be more out of mistrust than necessity.
One confusing thing about this, though, is she has given me several opportunities to retract the statement that if I hadn't gotten caught, I'd probably still be doing it. I can't stress enough that THIS EVENT was the thing that's gotten me to open my eyes. I don't feel I need the loss of my marriage to drive this home or to reappraise my life. I get it all the way around, I just seem to be unable to what she needs me to DO. I'm talking about what SHE TELLS ME she needs, not what I think she needs. I'm not guessing here, I know, but I keep doing it wrong. I just can't seem to figure it out.
It might, however, take the loss of my marriage for me to figure it all out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seenthrume
Again, I have never stated or ever believed that I expect my wife to tell me how to act or behave. When I say she saved me, I mean to say she was very harsh on me and got me to see myself in ways I didn't want to see. I am my own master when it comes to my actions. I know that. Nobody can lord over me and make me change. I have to want to do that and I do, so I have. Like a drug addict who has to WANT change. I know that. There is nothing at all like begrudgement going on with me as it relates to wanting to be THAT person. It's my main focus in life, but not just because she wants it. It's because it's right for me and it's what we NEED to be together and I WANT to be with her.
The bar girl seems like a real focal point here, but it's only ever been a problem the one time. It hasn't come up since the day it happened..yes...yes, I know...one time makes all the difference, there's no excuse etc, but that's not me saying that, it's my wife. Her main problems all have to do with things that happened before we were ever married and even before we even met. I focus on those because I am listening to what SHE is telling me. Those are the things I spend my energy trying to figure out, come to terms with, explain and incorporate. I am listening to what my wife is asking me to focus on and it's not the girl in the bar. She knows better than anyone, so I'm going with her on this one.
I didn't mean that you asked her to be your moral compass, I meant that because she caught you trolling & now doesn't trust you, she is taking on the role of your morality by the very fact that she is going to have to check up on you in order to feel any sense of trust.
You shouldn't have stopped trolling BECAUSE she caught you, you shouldn't have done it in the first place, or at the very least, stopped by yourself, NOT because she caught you.
I'll break it down even more, you cheated, she doesn't trust you, in order for her to feel a sense of security, she will more than likely go through the motions of checking up on you, whether that's checking your emails, texts, phone, laptop, or whatever.
Betrayed Spouses (BS) will often do this to feel more in control.
The flipside to this is that by them having to do this, it creates more anxiety, because the only reason they're doing this is because they feel they can't trust their Wayward Spouse (WS).
It's a double edged sword.
I didn't mean that you asked her to be your moral compass, I meant that because she caught you trolling & now doesn't trust you, she is taking on the role of your morality by the very fact that she is going to have to check up on you in order to feel any sense of trust.
You shouldn't have stopped trolling BECAUSE she caught you, you shouldn't have done it in the first place, or at the very least, stopped by yourself, NOT because she caught you.
I'll break it down even more, you cheated, she doesn't trust you, in order for her to feel a sense of security, she will more than likely go through the motions of checking up on you, whether that's checking your emails, texts, phone, laptop, or whatever.
Betrayed Spouses (BS) will often do this to feel more in control.
The flipside to this is that by them having to do this, it creates more anxiety, because the only reason they're doing this is because they feel they can't trust their Wayward Spouse (WS).
It's a double edged sword.
Well, yes. This has been clearly stated to me by her. She doesn't like being that person and it's my fault that she is. Never mind the double edged sword. I live with that every day. It's all about what can I actually do and is there any real hope? Those are the impossible to answer questions I have.
Well, yes. This has been clearly stated to me by her. She doesn't like being that person and it's my fault that she is. Never mind the double edged sword. I live with that every day. It's all about what can I actually do and is there any real hope? Those are the impossible to answer questions I have.
The most important question you have to ask yourself is "will you do whatever it takes to save your marriage, no matter how long it takes?"
If you honestly can't forsee dealing with the ramifications of your actions for the next X number of years, then you're actually saving your wife if you divorce her.
The divorce would be painful, but not nearly as painful as a half-hearted R.
Tonight, I have received this email from my wife...slightly edited to remove names etc...
I don't really want to be here typing this email right now but for some reason, I feel that I should be.t It's fair for you to know my feelings at this point in time so that there are no surprises later should you be going along thinking one thing only to find out it's another.
Where I'm at is basically at the end of a very very very long rope. It's been 2.5 years of information accumulation, and sitting with a lot of knowledge I've been trying to sift through. I guess you could call it heavy deliberation. I come to this point in time feeling tired, drained, and realizing I am miserable. I've been miserable every since the day I found those emails. And all you've lied about on top of those lies. The cheating, who you've slept with, and a lot of other things I suspect that I will never know the truth about.
I was able to go the last year doing all I could to move forward with marriage and living together, attempting to live in forgiveness and moving on. To find peace and zen and live within it, hoping it would all die down. But my feelings don't go away and my opinions, they haven't changed. And my feelings and opinions are not going to go away no matter what you say or do. You know exactly what to say to me and what I need and want to hear and you are beyond more than capable of delivering whatever you need to say to clean up whatever mess you make. You have spent your entire life with your heart and soul in duplicity, and of all people to pay the price for finally help you seal the gap, it makes sense that the one who finally did it was a woman you loved as much as you loved me. On the other side of the coin, I'm the one person you could ill-afford to cause this kind of pain to. I think the last couple of years of our marriage has been me in a post trauma situation. In shock, in damage control, ashamed at my poor choice because of my friends and family and son. The events that transpired after the first trauma only nailed the coffin because you never volunteered any of it, but instead you let me find it for myself with careless abandonmemt.
The LAST thing I want to do is get a divorce, split up, move out, deal with this house, uproot (my son) in the middle of high school, tell him about you, and start over again. The money and time and stress that would go into that sounds like a slice of hell that I just can barely wrap my brain around with all that is going on. But the fact is, I no longer feel that it would be *me* that caused those things to happen if they were to happen. In the past, I kept saying to myself "I dont want to do that to (my son)" etc. But now, I no longer feel that it was me that did it to him. Yes, it was a poor decision by marrying someone before I really took the time to get to know him that caused it, but I don't think with all the cards on the table the way that they were at the time, that that I can continue to solely take the blame.
It has been since I got married that I was ever able to kiss someone or make love to someone with passion and clarity and no pain, no deception. That's been a long time to me. My need for physical closeness, affection, and intimacy is supreme in my being. Probably because I didn't get it when I was younger. I've spent my entire *marriage* going through the motions with it, numb inside, and deadening myself so that I can forget the anguish I have towards the man I am letting inside of me. Making you a Spanish lover or making you someone else other than *you*. I have never had to do it to this extent and it's making me question who I've become on every level. I simply cannot go on like this and I'm at the point now where I have decided that I won't anymore, whatever the cost. I can't go on pretending you are someone else so that I can let you get close to me. I've recently had a lot of temptations come my way with men, perhaps my getting out there more and it seems men can sniff me out. I want to have an affair, I want to close the part of me off to you entirely that shares what I can of my body and give it to someone else, if only for a night. I would never cheat on you without warning, and that is why I am telling you this now. I am telling you that I am very close to having an affair. Not with anyone you or I know or anyone in my current line up of friends and acquaintances, but with a stranger, some night. I think about it every day. Thinking about a fun date where I am sexy and funny and alive. A date where *I* am the woman that you wanted to go out with in Florida to forget you were married to me. For the same reasons you wanted to sleep with them, I now want to sleep with someone else.
Someone I can look at and adore, knowing they have never hurt me and even if they did, it would never be in the vein of hurt that I experienced with you. Every day that I am alone knowing the night will come and I will still be alone, I think about this. Knowing you won't be here for another month and knowing that even when you do get back, I can't have this with you. My resistance and moral core against it is slipping more and more each day. I want to do it to rebel, to avenge myself, to revenge against you, to feel pretty and new and fresh to someone else.
So clearly the idea of separation is not something that really matters compared to the distance I am going in my thoughts. I feel so good not talking to you these last couple of days, eventhough I know that at any moment I will probably miss you terribly. But I think I inhaled all of you that I could in the last couple of years, I took you in and memorized all that I could, just so that I could mourn with what happened between us. I've been in shock, trauma, and awe over what happened. And I don't think I could overstate that enough.
This is why I bring up separation, because these are my thoughts and my thoughts tell me I can't be on this road I am mentally while being married without speaking up about it.
I want you to change your passwords to your email and facebook accounts to something I don't know. I no longer have any desire to "check up" on you or read your presonal communications. And I haven't in a long time, really. I want you to get your life and privacy back. It was all a facade anyway, as if you don't have email accounts with whole other servers you access via other devices besides your laptop and phone. And I don't even really care if you are out there trying to get laid. That's a choice you can make with your life and time if you want and I don't want to have anything to do with regulating that with or for you.
I am going to see (our MC) tomorrow. Something has got to change between us. I don't know what it is but I have to be honest when I say that I think a separation might not be the worst idea so that we are forced to deal with these issues, not fall back into old traps and habits of getting complacent with one another.
I want to know how you would feel if I had an affair with a stranger.
Very much as I suspected. This letter is a good representation of my wife's position. As I've said, she's very good at clearly expressing herself and I feel there are no doubts left. This is HER truth, no matter what I think. We'll be apart for a couple more weeks as I am on the road working and that's probably a good thing for the time being. She can really work out what she wants to do. I really don't feel I have any say at this point.
Well, you can imagine what it's like reading that if you are a betrayed spouse. Raw, moving, where many of our numbers have been.
You can see here that what destroys a marriage is the lying. Cheaters (not you, but in general) think it's about the sex. When the betrayed spouse believes (rightly or wrongly) that they are the ones who have to unveil the truth, or really, chase after it as it dodges around, it kills their love like nothing else.
She sounds very, very tired. She sounds resigned to not knowing who the real you is. There is only so much the human heart can take.
I wish there was a way to convince her that an affair is not the answer. But she may have to learn that the hard way, just as you have. Posted via Mobile Device
Tonight, I have received this email from my wife...slightly edited to remove names etc...
I don't really want to be here typing this email right now but for some reason, I feel that I should be.t It's fair for you to know my feelings at this point in time so that there are no surprises later should you be going along thinking one thing only to find out it's another.
Where I'm at is basically at the end of a very very very long rope. It's been 2.5 years of information accumulation, and sitting with a lot of knowledge I've been trying to sift through. I guess you could call it heavy deliberation. I come to this point in time feeling tired, drained, and realizing I am miserable. I've been miserable every since the day I found those emails. And all you've lied about on top of those lies. The cheating, who you've slept with, and a lot of other things I suspect that I will never know the truth about.
I was able to go the last year doing all I could to move forward with marriage and living together, attempting to live in forgiveness and moving on. To find peace and zen and live within it, hoping it would all die down. But my feelings don't go away and my opinions, they haven't changed. And my feelings and opinions are not going to go away no matter what you say or do. You know exactly what to say to me and what I need and want to hear and you are beyond more than capable of delivering whatever you need to say to clean up whatever mess you make. You have spent your entire life with your heart and soul in duplicity, and of all people to pay the price for finally help you seal the gap, it makes sense that the one who finally did it was a woman you loved as much as you loved me. On the other side of the coin, I'm the one person you could ill-afford to cause this kind of pain to. I think the last couple of years of our marriage has been me in a post trauma situation. In shock, in damage control, ashamed at my poor choice because of my friends and family and son. The events that transpired after the first trauma only nailed the coffin because you never volunteered any of it, but instead you let me find it for myself with careless abandonmemt.
The LAST thing I want to do is get a divorce, split up, move out, deal with this house, uproot (my son) in the middle of high school, tell him about you, and start over again. The money and time and stress that would go into that sounds like a slice of hell that I just can barely wrap my brain around with all that is going on. But the fact is, I no longer feel that it would be *me* that caused those things to happen if they were to happen. In the past, I kept saying to myself "I dont want to do that to (my son)" etc. But now, I no longer feel that it was me that did it to him. Yes, it was a poor decision by marrying someone before I really took the time to get to know him that caused it, but I don't think with all the cards on the table the way that they were at the time, that that I can continue to solely take the blame.
It has been since I got married that I was ever able to kiss someone or make love to someone with passion and clarity and no pain, no deception. That's been a long time to me. My need for physical closeness, affection, and intimacy is supreme in my being. Probably because I didn't get it when I was younger. I've spent my entire *marriage* going through the motions with it, numb inside, and deadening myself so that I can forget the anguish I have towards the man I am letting inside of me. Making you a Spanish lover or making you someone else other than *you*. I have never had to do it to this extent and it's making me question who I've become on every level. I simply cannot go on like this and I'm at the point now where I have decided that I won't anymore, whatever the cost. I can't go on pretending you are someone else so that I can let you get close to me. I've recently had a lot of temptations come my way with men, perhaps my getting out there more and it seems men can sniff me out. I want to have an affair, I want to close the part of me off to you entirely that shares what I can of my body and give it to someone else, if only for a night. I would never cheat on you without warning, and that is why I am telling you this now. I am telling you that I am very close to having an affair. Not with anyone you or I know or anyone in my current line up of friends and acquaintances, but with a stranger, some night. I think about it every day. Thinking about a fun date where I am sexy and funny and alive. A date where *I* am the woman that you wanted to go out with in Florida to forget you were married to me. For the same reasons you wanted to sleep with them, I now want to sleep with someone else.
Someone I can look at and adore, knowing they have never hurt me and even if they did, it would never be in the vein of hurt that I experienced with you. Every day that I am alone knowing the night will come and I will still be alone, I think about this. Knowing you won't be here for another month and knowing that even when you do get back, I can't have this with you. My resistance and moral core against it is slipping more and more each day. I want to do it to rebel, to avenge myself, to revenge against you, to feel pretty and new and fresh to someone else.
So clearly the idea of separation is not something that really matters compared to the distance I am going in my thoughts. I feel so good not talking to you these last couple of days, eventhough I know that at any moment I will probably miss you terribly. But I think I inhaled all of you that I could in the last couple of years, I took you in and memorized all that I could, just so that I could mourn with what happened between us. I've been in shock, trauma, and awe over what happened. And I don't think I could overstate that enough.
This is why I bring up separation, because these are my thoughts and my thoughts tell me I can't be on this road I am mentally while being married without speaking up about it.
I want you to change your passwords to your email and facebook accounts to something I don't know. I no longer have any desire to "check up" on you or read your presonal communications. And I haven't in a long time, really. I want you to get your life and privacy back. It was all a facade anyway, as if you don't have email accounts with whole other servers you access via other devices besides your laptop and phone. And I don't even really care if you are out there trying to get laid. That's a choice you can make with your life and time if you want and I don't want to have anything to do with regulating that with or for you.
I am going to see (our MC) tomorrow. Something has got to change between us. I don't know what it is but I have to be honest when I say that I think a separation might not be the worst idea so that we are forced to deal with these issues, not fall back into old traps and habits of getting complacent with one another.
I want to know how you would feel if I had an affair with a stranger.
Very much as I suspected. This letter is a good representation of my wife's position. As I've said, she's very good at clearly expressing herself and I feel there are no doubts left. This is HER truth, no matter what I think. We'll be apart for a couple more weeks as I am on the road working and that's probably a good thing for the time being. She can really work out what she wants to do. I really don't feel I have any say at this point.
mmm... in the time I have been on here and that is relatively short, no posts have 'moved' me like that. I feel tearful reading through it.
I wrote my wife a letter like that, some of it seems almost word for word. You can feel the pain in every sentence. Can you now feel the pain in that ?
It sends me into anger reading it and I know this thread is yours not mine but f**sakes can you even get a small idea of what you have done now?
So many people I know say my wife does not deserve me. Can you honestly say you deserve yours?
This is what you people do to a clean loving innocent mind and you do it all so easily without any conscience
I'm going now as I can just feel the rage burning me up....
Sounds like she is really hurting and like you are trying to be there for her, but she's not seeing it the same way as you are. I know some people have recommended books like "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages". I wonder if you have had a chance to read them yet. They might give you some insight into either how to connect or how to cope with her choice to separate and withdraw from you. I can understand that this is difficult for you, too; just because you screwed up doesn't mean you're evil. Just listen to what she is telling you because alongside her words of rejection and distancing, she is actually communicating what she is going through. You just need to be able to hear it and make sense of it. If she needs space, give her space. If she needs evidence of your devotion, give her that. It's gotta be tough to be the one trying to get back into her good graces, too. Hang in there.
Sounds like she is really hurting and like you are trying to be there for her, but she's not seeing it the same way as you are. I know some people have recommended books like "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages". I wonder if you have had a chance to read them yet.
And Love Busters, all 3 books help you learn to express love the way she would prefer to receive it--but you may need some cooperation from her to get the max benefit. Posted via Mobile Device
I haven't been able to find any of these books, or even been able to have time to read. Work is long hours this week, but next week things calm down a bit. I want to do this, to read these things. We have had some exchanges that have been enlightening since this email, but keep resulting in more pain and difficulty. I am in despair because it seem my efforts have been lost on all of this.
For the record here, though, I am very aware that the lying is where the pain is here. That's why I stopped doing it. That's why I have done what I can to make her feel safe about it. Often, she doesn't see it, but that doesn't stop me from doing it.
I take offense to the idea that she deserves better, too. I CAN give her what she needs and wants, but because of what I did, she doesn't see that either.
Finally, in case you missed it, I didn't cheat on her. I lied to myself and consequently to her about parts of my personality and that's what lead to my actions to look for sex outside of marriage. I never gave her a chance to show me the wife she could be and I am going to lose her because I couldn't be honest with myself for a long time. The loss between us is shared, but very VERY different. I have not been able to have feelings about any of this because I'm not entitled to them, but if talk of what my life is going to be after divorce comes up, I feel I have to acknowledge my own feelings to move ahead.
I'm rambling a bit now, but it's all there nonetheless.
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