more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Been married to my wife for almost 15 years, 3 kids 14,12,9. Wife was pregnant when we were married.
I've had two emotional affairs during the marriage. They consisted of conversations that were inappropriate, things I should not have said to another women other than my wife. Things that would have hurt me if my wife had said to another man.
Our relationship has had hard times since the beginning. We do love each other, I know she is the one for me.
She has struggled with depression since well before the marriage, to include a suicide attempt prior to marriage, then one after our first child. She still gets depressed to this day, but does not contemplate suicide.
We cannot communicate when we have differences, absolutely cannot. The only solution that has ever worked has been to ignore the problem, and wait for the next. We have been to councilors. Which works as long as it is about me, as soon as they say she has any fault in it she takes offense and finds reasons they are wrong. Went to a religious guy, she says it is crap because he is following religion and being biased. Been to people at my place of employment, they of course are biased towards me. Been to people outside of religion and my place of employment, one was a female of course it was because she liked me. I know I've been a bad person, I know I've done things wrong, I play my part too. I thought I've changed, I've excluded many things from my vocabulary that I used when I was young. Her fights still consist of personal attacks on me being a poor father, my crappy dad, my inability to be there for her, she tells me she hates me and the marriage, wants a divorce, wish she never met me, etc. I still say things to hurt her when I get fed up, but I have refrained from coming close to anythings close to what she still says to this day. She will not change how she deals with me. I need to do better, and not say anything hurtful.
Something we have a huge problem with is continuing to fight about something that was never said; communication is probably a root to many of our issues. We take a break for a few minutes from a fight, come back and try to talk about what happened. Then we argue about what we think the other person said, then comes the hateful things from her again. I feel as if she needs to be right all the time, as if I am in debate with her. If I have a different opinion on things or am correct about something rather than moving on she attacks me with something hateful. I don't really care about being right or wrong, I know we have different opinions on things. We do need to be able to talk respectfully to each other and respect differences. I accept that she sees things different, and that is one reason I was attacked to her in the beginning. She was different, and had different views. I did not realize me being different would cause her so much anger. Don't get me wrong, I can be a jerk like the best of them, I play the game too. I am ready (and have been ready) to move on and stop fighting about lies.
Today I offered to record our arguments, because in 15 years we have never once agreed upon what was said. I thought this would allow us to actually see how we treat each other. Maybe force us to be accountable for our actions, rather than just say we didn't say something. She was absolutely horrified. She wanted nothing to do with it. She believes I am trying to gather evidence to show she is a bad person. She thinks I am being sick and twisted. I offered for her to be the keeper of the files/recorder, that didn't matter. She wants nothing to do with it. I am tired of being accused of saying/doing things that did not happen. I want us to face reality, and work through our issues. I want us to talk about what we said or what the actual problem is, rather than what we think the other persons thinks we think. It gets so stupid going down a rabbit hole of what one person thought the other said about a feeling of the others feeling about something said about a feeling of something that may have really never even occurred. I want an unbiased account of what happens, I am tired of some alternate version of reality.
I went to her mom (in town visiting), to ask for help after today's fight. Gave her no details at all about what we were fighting about, and told her upfront my wife was going to be irate about talking to her and she must tell her that I was crystal clear, no details, just looking for advice to where we could get help. I told her mom we cannot communicate and that I can't keep not communicating, I need some help. I also told her previous help did nothing (gave no specifics of why it didn't work), just looking for something new. Well she basically said to do research. She was helpful, someone to talk to and listen to.
I came home, and told my wife I talked to her and began with I gave her no details and was just upset and needed someone. She got very upset, and said now her mom knows all the of our problems and details about our fight. Again, I said I gave her no details. Same thing different words back from her, she doesn't want to see her mom now dealing with her now that she knows about our fight. This went on several times, finally turned on the tape recorder and said I gave her no details and then she understood I gave her no details and went up stairs.
OK now where do I go, I cannot force my wife to face reality, she almost refuses to. I know I am part of it, and would do anything I could for us to face up to our problems. I want us to face reality, I want to work through any issues we have, but I am tired of trying getting no where. I need something different. Not looking to quit or an out at all. A different approach, a way we both can deal with an issue and face reality.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
We have been numerous times, it all starts well. I sit she says her piece, I have always let her go first. That works for a session or too. Then when the person ask about the issues or problems I have with her things change. She then finds a reason not to trust the councilor. Religious councilor to religious and biased. Councilor at my employment was looking out for me. Been to people outside of religion and my place of employment, one was a female of course it was because she liked me. She says she is not comfortable with males because they will side with me. I've asked her to go to someone, establish a relationship and then bring me in, she won't.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Wow. I think I married her sister.
It was the same with my wife and me - for 20 years.
One day - it was a bad day for me at work - we got into a disagreement and it escalated into exactly what you described, hurtful, painful things about me. I knew she was saying these things to hurt me but that day something snapped in me. I began to pack a suit case. She said "I suppose you are going to run away now"? I told her no I'm not running away. I just realized for the first time that you truly mean the things you just said. That my staying is only going to make her sad and depressed. That I love her enough to get out of her life and let her find someone she can respect and love and could make her happy. She watched me pack and go out the door. While I was getting in the car she saw me crying and it hit her that I was serious and she came running after me begging me not to go. This was a turning point in our marriage. We learned how to argue and not let it get personal. Things are not perfect even after another 15 years together, but that was the day we turned the corner.
If you love her and she insists that you are a bad person, husband and father - you need to love her enough to let her go.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
they might be related, my middle daughter does the same things to us and her siblings.
Also, I left today, with the intentions of seeing her mom, grabbed clothes to change into. I think she thought I was leaving, because she texted me this " I am sorry, please don't do this to me.
Please I am begging you, I was wrong. I will do anything you want.
I don't want this to happen, I love our family. I love you, too."
So I come home, and got the argument about her mother. Maybe I need to really do it, and not just leave for a little bit. I really do appreciate the reply. It does give me hope, and I am happy that things worked out for you.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
You want to know what I did, when my husband of 12 years and I weren't communicating well? I wrote him a letter. I told him exactly how I was feeling. Have you tried that? Don't use statements like "you always" or "you never". That will get you NOWHERE. Talk about specific problems, how the problem makes you feel, and offer a possible solution that way, or ask if she has a suggestion to resolve it. I'm not saying to CONTINUE with this method.
The goal is to get to the point where you can discuss things and come up with a solution, instead of rug sweeping and waiting til next time. THAT IS NOT WORKING! You say that is the only thing that works. But it doesn't. Everything has just been building. Eventually, if you keep at this path, you two will have so much resentment built up that there will just be no turning back. One of you will either explode or say "screw it, it's not worth it anymore."
Give it a try. Don't throw EVERYTHING at her at once. Pick out a couple of things that bother you. And, if she wants to respond in kind, let her. As I said, this is a stepping stone, to hopefully open the lines of communication. Good luck. And yes, it DID work for my husband and me.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Thanks again for another insightful post. Google talk is probably one of the reason we are still together. When things go real south we get away and do some of our best comms with texting/IMing. I think I will try a letter, and try to bite off a little at a time. Not in response to a fight, but as to problems we have. I like that better than leaving (not discounting you TDSC60, your post really gave me hope).
By ignoring it working I meant, it is the only thing that keeps stops the hate at that point in time; only a temp fix. If one of us stops talking or leaves the area eventually the other one won't keep insulting. I know it doesn't work, as we both have built up resentment now.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
If I was you I'd go to MC by my self...at least a IC and learn how to work your arguements in your favor. Learn how to negogiate, learns some tactics. Like MIL stated do some research and teach your self how to win in a war of words. Theres got to be books so become a scholor in conflict resolution.
I mean it sounds like she continues to side track the "discussion" and your point gets lost. Especially when she starts with the name calling. Sure You can acknowledge her feelings, then go back to the point and repeat as needed.
I like TDSC60 idea, as you see it has an effect on your wife. I mean maybe its time to get a little dominate and calmy ask her to sit down and listen with out interrupting, then she can say her peace. Must likely she will come at you with some radom thought, then ask her if she's finished and restate you original thought, keep doing this until it sinks in and she has a response that tells you she actually listened.
I think at the end of the day she has to see some real consequences for her behavior. Something drastic that will get her to think twice in what she is about to lose and she takes the needed step to save her marriage.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Atatat, welcome to the TAM forum. Like you, I was married for 15 years to an unhappy, verbally abusive W. The behaviors you describe -- the self harm (i.e., the two suicide attempts), emotional instability, blameshifting, depression, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the symptoms of a classic disorder my exW has. Significantly, I am not suggesting that your W has that full-blown disorder but, rather, that she may have moderate to strong traits of it (it is a spectral disorder that varies greatly in strength from person to person).
Yet, if your W does exhibit that pattern of symptoms, she also should be showing a number of other behavioral traits -- symptoms you do not mention. I therefore ask whether you regularly observe any of the following: Do you see temper tantrums occurring nearly every week or two, wherein the tantrum is provoked -- in only ten seconds -- by a minor comment or action -- and typically lasts only a few hours? Do you see low self-esteem?
Do you see a strong fear of abandonment, evident in irrational jealousy or inability to trust you? Do you see black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" (i.e., "with me") or "all bad" (i.e., "against me")? Finally, do you see Jekyll-Hyde behavior, i.e., rapid flips from loving you to hating you (usually triggered by some disagreement so minor that neither of you can remember what it was the next day)?
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
I recognize this crazy making pattern. I've told a couple of other people on this site the same thing I'm going to tell you:
get a book on narcissism. Go to Amazon.com, to the book section, and type living with narcissism. A list of books will come up. It lets you preview them. Read a few and see if you recognize what it's like to live with your wife.
If you see it as the problem go to a IC and tell him what your life is like and explain what you think it is. Few have experience with true narcissist but many will be willing to find you someone who has. Usually answering yes to these questions means there is a good chance you're dealing with a narcissistic person:
Is everything always about her?
When someone else has a problem does she always want to know what it has to do with her before she cares?
Does she have an extreme problem admitting when she's wrong?
Does she have an extreme problem when other find out she has made a mistake?
Does she make friends based on what they have to offer her yet gives little back unless it benefits her?
Go do some reading. If she is narcissistic you can't approach her like everyone else. She doesn't think like "normal" people and won't react "normally" to your reasoning.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
uptown - yep, those things happen, she often thinks everyone hates her and is out to get her, self esteem problems, temper issues - little things will set her off, but there are times she can be very sweet too. she has been diagnosed as bi-polar by a few different docs. She has gotten better, but still portrays what I think are symptoms. But I am not a professional. I try to point it out, but no tact I take works, I get reminded I am not a professional.
Prize - I've never thought of her as a narcissist. She does not take criticism well, at times at all; whether it be me her mom, boss, etc. When someone thinks different or says she is wrong she'll describe them as a jerk, being mean, douche bag, etc. It is seems to more often than not be someone other than her fault or problem. But that is about the only trait you listed above she follows. It seems to me to more about a fear of being bad, negative, unsuccessful, self-esteem type stuff when it comes to being right/wrong. There are certain subjects I cannot address, without going to full out battle with her, I've tried several approaches. For example, she had some tickets she would not take car of at all. She blamed the cop for writing the tickets, so if I asked her about them she would get really offended. I left her money to take care of them, she spent it else where. My job requires me being gone for long periods of time. I kept insisting on her taking care of them. She never did, I began to avoid the subject as we almost got divorced several times as a result of these conversations. Years passed, got in more trouble, so she had to do something or it was jail time. She hired a lawyer, (money spent on ticket was now like 4 times the cost of the original ticket). I kind of ask a little about it, I see anger, avoid it. Then the lawyer never really took care of it. I had asked her several times to follow up with him, she refused to said he was taking care of it. Hours of community service and more money later, problem still there. She blamed the lawyer and the system, everyone was against her, they were being mean. We move, and I tell her she cannot drive if she does not take care of her tickets. Her mom is aware of the problem and dad now, gets money from family (and more of our funds), and takes care of the problem once I take the keys. It was weird, I wasn't really a jerk, just firm and drew the line. She does not like problems or being told she did something wrong, and it is not just me. But I don't see her as a narcissist. I guess that it was very selfish in some sense, so maybe there is something to that. Thinking about that, the fight today was triggered when she was doing something that was extremely risky to my career. She thought it was ok, and because she thought it was ok she could lie to me about it and it shouldn't be a problem. However, is what it is, it could cause me to loose everything I've worked for in my adult career. So it looks like amazon is in the cards. I kind of talked myself into that one, but you might be right and I am willing to try anything.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Well, my H is narcissistic and he hates being told he's wrong, doesn't want to hear anyone else's opinions, blames everyone but himself for his problems, etc. The only time in 30 years of marriage he has ever admitted he was wrong was with the A. That's it. Even if you give him absolute proof that he is wrong the closest you get to an admission is "I wasn't exactly right".
The weird thing about narcissist is that they are broken, usually when they were young, by someone who made them feel defective. They will do almost anything not to be perceived as wrong. When someone thinks their opinion is wrong or their behavior is wrong it comes across to them as THEY are wrong.
Not trying to convince you but....yep, start reading.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
Prize - I know your not trying to push it on me, just helping. I appreciate it. I've never thought of her that way. If anything she describes me that way. Without sounding like I am bragging I would be considered very successful in my career. I hear it all the time, and it actually make be feel embarrassed. I take care of myself, exercise, etc. My wife has told me several times I only care about myself and she and kids have had to follow me around and support me. So, that is kind of what shocked me, I had never thought it about her as being that way, as I've been called a narcissist many times by her (and only her). At times she has even said I do things well to make her look bad. I never really believed that, because I've been driven way before I met her. However, I guess hearing it enough has made me try to be extra cautious about being that way. I've always thought of myself as humble and strive for others to see me as humble. I am confident, I do know I can do anything I want to, and will not quit at anything. So again, I've just never thought of her as a narcissist, and have tried to watch myself to make sure others don't see me that way.
Re: more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help
No need to apologize to anyone here. I was just throwing out my experience. I didn't plan to do what I did, like I said, that day I just snapped and thought enough of this, I just cannot do this again.
Because it worked for me doesn't mean it will have the same effect on your wife.
I like the "letter" idea. Wish I had thought of that all those years ago.
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more than infidelity, but need advice as to where to go for help 
