Can we talk about privacy vs secrets, transparency and trus in recovery?

daggeredheart · 07-25-2012, 09:51 AM

OK, one of the main tools in reconciliation is transparency and how it's so vital to the BS in healing. I think we all know the basics of what is secretive vs private yet it's so hard to put in practice.

Emotional transparency is a big one for me.....should our spouses reveal every thought and emotion...even if they can wound us again? Like should they mention when they are thinking of the AP (assuming it's over and NC)? Should they share when they see a hot person walking down the street or have sexual thoughts of another person? Should they share sexual fantasies no matter how trivial? How much do we as BS have a "right" to know what goes on in their head?

I struggle with the feeling that I am "pulling" info from him. He doesn't volunteer emotional thoughts easily. Which led him to his EA....he has conflict avoidance combined with antisocial behavior which leads to a really "quiet" marriage. I'm the talker and he's the avoid-er. I'm tired of offering a safe place to share.....it's draining.

I've always felt like he has "held back" himself in this marriage. Like he's not completely checked in emotionally...shyness, crappy childhood and his social anxiety has made a lethal combo.

This leads to my other question of "rebuilding trust".....how do you fully trust someone when they have a secretive nature to begin with and then you throw in a EA or affair on top of that...... for me it feels like a house build on sand. Unsafe???

What tools are you using to help in recovery from their affair?

costa200 · 07-25-2012, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Should they share when they see a hot person walking down the street or have sexual thoughts of another person? Should they share sexual fantasies no matter how trivial?

I don't have first hand experience, but i'm guessing no BS can handle that while trying to work through a R. Hell, i know i could not handle that even in a non problematic relationship.

Do i really need my partner telling me she would not mind banging Brad Pitt? Heck no. Humans are sexual beings but there is no need to dwell in what is inconsequential.

There isn't a fully functional human that hasn't the occasional sexual attraction for someone other than his/her partner. To rub that on your partner would just be negative in all sorts of ways.

canttrustu · 07-25-2012, 10:13 AM

"I struggle with the feeling that I am "pulling" info from him. He doesn't volunteer emotional thoughts easily. Which led him to his EA....he has conflict avoidance combined with antisocial behavior which leads to a really "quiet" marriage. I'm the talker and he's the avoid-er. I'm tired of offering a safe place to share.....it's draining.

I've always felt like he has "held back" himself in this marriage. Like he's not completely checked in emotionally...shyness, crappy childhood and his social anxiety has made a lethal combo.

This leads to my other question of "rebuilding trust".....how do you fully trust someone when they have a secretive nature to begin with and then you throw in a EA or affair on top of that...... for me it feels like a house build on sand. Unsafe???"

UMMMM, Are you me and are you married to my husband in an alternate universe?

I could have written this exact post. It is indeed a lethal combo if they choose to remain in this state. I agree that it is emotionally draining on us. The ones 'dragging' emotion out of them. And when they fall apart-its epic.

I dont have much advice to offer. Just some support and good wishes. And to say someone totally understands what youre saying.

And just to add my opinion. NO, I dont want him to tell me his every thought about his AP. I listened to him talk about her for months on end. Incessantly. Uncontrollably. So I have no need for him to let me know IF he is wasting even more of our time together with thoughts of HER. If I ask a question regarding her- I expect an answer. Otherwise, no thanks. Dont bring her up at random. Ive had enough of that for a lifetime.

CTU

Hope1964 · 07-25-2012, 10:15 AM

My hubby is similar to yours - he doesn't share things from his head. He has some kind of weird filter too - he processes things very differently than most people. For example, a couple weeks ago we had a huge hailstorm that wiped out our garden. On Monday there was an emergency broadcast as i went home from work that there were tornado and hail warnings again. So when I got home I went inside and said hi, then I started to ask him if he thought our tent trailer should be set down or not. I don't know what he heard, but suddenly he was angrily running out the door into the rain to set it down. Apparently me starting a conversation about whether it was necessary translated into a demand for him to immediately drop everything and run to do what I said.

After we had it set down I asked him why he did what he did. He was still angry at me. He finally apologized and left for his SA meeting, but I was left wondering what the hell happened and feeling totally off kilter. When he got home he acted like nothing happened. Finally last night we were able to talk rationally about the whole episode, but that was only because I broached the subject. He would have happily never brought it up again. And that scares me because he buried resentment towards me for years which led to him cheating.

As far as him sharing sexual thoughts and stuff, no I do not think he should have to do that. I wouldn't want to have to tell him everything that goes through my head. What I think he does need to share are any type of thoughts of acting out again. Not thoughts of "oh, she's hot" but thoughts of actual planning to act out in the ways he was before, or in new ways. We've talked about this, especially since he doesn't have an SA sponsor right now, and I am confident he has things in order as far as seeking help if he needs it.

As for how do you trust again? Well, I will probably never fully trust him, but then I never did to begin with. I actually trust him more now in a lot of ways though, because now he is being forced NOT to be so secretive. Of course, he could just go sign up for a new secret email and a new secret cell phone and all that, but since we know what led to things deteriorating in our marriage before he cheated, and we're both working hard on them, and we're both far happier together now, I trust that it won't get to that point again for him. And I also trust that if, despite all that, he decides to cheat again, I will find out at some point and that will be that.

daggeredheart · 07-25-2012, 10:18 AM

I see your point there, that I get..you would have to possess awesome self esteem to handle that.... I'm thinking along the lines of should they tell you if they feel a longing or dissatisfaction in the relationship? I guess that's under emotional transparency? How much of their behavior should they share

I know in my case I was unaware that he was feeling neglected, he never voiced that to me, but it was his "excuse" to have a EA. Naturally I want to "know" how he is feeling as a way to protect from future affairs and build upon but I can't force that info from him. How does someone learn to be transparent?

Should they tell you if they view porn, craigslist ads, watch cinemax or even self sex? If they go out with girlfriends and flirt with hot guys ? Should they share they read 50 shades of gray and wish you were like Christian? Should they share they love Creed?

I joke because I remember that scene in Crazy Stupid Love where she confessed she went to see Twilight.

ON a serious note, everyone says give it time, trust can be earned back but how when they are so private to begin with?

Maricha75 · 07-25-2012, 10:28 AM

Another one here who understand. My husband has a hard time talking about how he feels. I find it kinda funny since HE was the one who insisted we needed to communicate more.... when I try, he shuts down. Some days are better than others, but when it's like I said here, it's frustrating. Sometimes I wanna rip my hair out.

Regarding fantasies and finding other people attractive? Not really something I want to have him telling me on a regular basis. Now, if it is a fantasy about what to do with me, sure, I'm game. But I don't need to hear if he is fantasizing about a celebrity or the next door neighbor. Nor does he need to hear about my fascination with Orlando Bloom (don't be hatin'!) But you get my point? I don't want him thinking he isn't man enough for me, and comparing himself to some celebrity.

costa200 · 07-25-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Apparently me starting a conversation about whether it was necessary translated into a demand for him to immediately drop everything and run to do what I said.

After we had it set down I asked him why he did what he did. He was still angry at me.

Sounds like he has some issues about being accused (or hinted at) of not handling things right. Specially in a stressful situation.

daggeredheart · 07-25-2012, 10:30 AM

*Wow, do I feel so much better knowing that other people are married to "quiet" ones. Sometimes I feel like I am swimming upstream in dealing with his reluctance to share.

One of his biggest "secrets" that he carried for 12 years were his fantasies and what turned him on sexually. When he actually shared them, they were pretty tame...generic stuff he saw through years of porn watching....threesomes, swaps, pegging etc.

My first reaction was sadness because he was not being authentic all those years...I can't imagine holding onto secrets. I can barely keep the toothfairy thing going. The weight of that must have been horrible.

I provided a safe place to share those fantasies and he realized that once he told me what turns him on..and I didn't laugh or leave him....that he would feel relieved and be even more open. Nope. I still see his secretive nature.

Your instincts just can "feel" the vibe of them holding back. Not to sound all mystic but it's like a energy in the air that you pick up on? Yet at the same time my radar didn't quite pick up the EA fast enough.

Perhaps my problem is that I'm a open book. I share easily with him and can't understand why he would want to carry around secrets?

I saw in his browser history that he looked at craigslist ads yesterday.... swapping, m4m etc....so what gives? Why not just tell me about that??? Finding out this way only erodes trust but also makes me feel like he is "unreachable" and still doesn't feel safe to share or just unfulfilled in our marriage and does that mean I need to just move on?

cpacan · 07-25-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daggeredheart

I see your point there, that I get..you would have to possess awesome self esteem to handle that.... I'm thinking along the lines of should they tell you if they feel a longing or dissatisfaction in the relationship? I guess that's under emotional transparency? How much of their behavior should they share

I know in my case I was unaware that he was feeling neglected, he never voiced that to me, but it was his "excuse" to have a EA. Naturally I want to "know" how he is feeling as a way to protect from future affairs and build upon but I can't force that info from him. How does someone learn to be transparent?

Should they tell you if they view porn, craigslist ads, watch cinemax or even self sex? If they go out with girlfriends and flirt with hot guys ? Should they share they read 50 shades of gray and wish you were like Christian? Should they share they love Creed?

I joke because I remember that scene in Crazy Stupid Love where she confessed she went to see Twilight.

ON a serious note, everyone says give it time, trust can be earned back but how when they are so private to begin with?

I think you have asked a brilliant question! I have struggled with it as well. I would really really like my wife to tell me, if she thinks about extramarital sex again, does she get her needs met, what turns her on sexually - are we on the same page or is there a chance that she will stray again?

Because if there is, I would like us to part the sooner the better.

But I also realize, that it is not realistic to expect her to reveal every thought - and in any case, i don't have any mind-police to check if she violates the agreement or not.

So I guess I am ambivalent on the matter, but sometimes/often I wish that I could read her mind. Then I wouldn't doubt either if she loves me or not.

In The Dark · 07-25-2012, 10:32 AM

I sympathize with you on this. My wife is not a sharer of how she is feeling. She silently built up resentment and then acted out with an EA. It makes you wonder whether they are still silently storing other stuff in their head.

I'm struggling with this same issue and guess I just realized that I'm doing the same thing. Storing this up inside...silently.

I think it all comes down to communication and whether they can admit what they did and what was the cause. Does your husband realize he stored all this up and acted on it? Can he admit how he processed and justified(wrongly) it all?

daggeredheart · 07-25-2012, 10:32 AM

Nor does he need to hear about my fascination with Orlando Bloom (don't be hatin'!) But you get my point? I don't want him thinking he isn't man enough for me, and comparing himself to some celebrity.[/QUOTE]

Hey Orlando bloom is a tough act to follow

hubahuba

daggeredheart · 07-25-2012, 10:36 AM

I'm struggling with this same issue and guess I just realized that I'm doing the same thing. Storing this up inside...silently.

***I think it all comes down to communication and whether they can admit what they did and what was the cause. Does your husband realize he stored all this up and acted on it? Can he admit how he processed and justified(wrongly) it all?[/QUOTE]***

Oh yes, he realizes but he still can't _overcome_ years of keeping secrets. It's like he has to learn how to share. Talk about torture,you should see us in counseling.....when she puts questions to him it's like watching paint dry.

You said it best...storing it inside....silently. That keeps the BS off balance. We don't know where they stand in the relationship. Is one foot out the door, both in....what?

I also resent that he kept quiet about his dissatisfaction until DDay....made me question if he really felt that way or was it a convenient excuse once busted?

I feel like I can't feel anchored until total transparency but do I just have to accept that some people are not open books?

Hope1964 · 07-25-2012, 10:38 AM

I don't mind hearing that he thinks actresses are sexy. I tell him if I think actors are, or actresses for that matter.

I have to keep after him to get him to talk about things, and invariably he says he's glad we did, but he still doesn't initiate the conversation. We go to MC every 5 weeks or so and sometimes he saves stuff for there, but mostly he tries not to think about things that bother him. I think it's ingrained in him since he was little to do that, and without some kind of heavy duty therapy he isn't going to change. So I have to remember to ask, and he is getting much better at opening up in the last two years once I do.

Hope1964 · 07-25-2012, 10:40 AM

Are you in MC or are you doing any reading? Gottmans Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work was awesome for us in the months following D day.

Link182 · 07-25-2012, 10:56 AM

My WW is a weird mix of the two. She is outgoing and fun, bordering on exuberant most days. But we only ever have talked about what I call "playing house" stuff for the better part of the last 4 years. Anything more than paying bills, how are you feeling today, what are the kids up to type stuff I feel like I have to drag out of her. She has told me that I spent a lot of years running her ideas down, not talking to her, or treating her ideas and thoughts as if they were not important that she has shut down to me and is struggling with the habit of just internalizing these thoughts instead of being open with me.

It literally tears her apart to the point of near break down to reveal facts about her affairs, and I told her recently that unless she gets some help to join me in the fight for our marriage that I am running out of fuel. No I don't want her to reveal any thoughts she has about her AP to me, but I have insisted and guaranteed by way of tracking software and VAR her transparency. It eases my mind when I find nothing, which I have not in 3 months post DD#2. I think at some point she will need IC to deal with the many demons from her life before us that factored into our present state.

To be clear, I was isolated as well before discovery, and so was she. I figured we were an older couple and that is just how marriages went, hug mistake. Taking a hard line now on sharing and being open and honest with each other is far more difficult on her than on me. It breaks me a little on the inside to insist on it, but I remember really quickly what her actions put me through and I get better really quick. I know I am a horrible listener, but I am listening now, and she is opening up slowly which frustrates me a good bit.