ReturnOfTheKitty

I'm sorry collier, when I see your posts I'm reminded of my daughter when she's throwing a tantrum.

You keep telling us about how your wife did this, your wife did that and how she's not satisfying your needs. Well sometimes a man, especially someone who's being unfaithful and not true to his word should just stop and ask.

What have I been bringing to the table these past four years? Why is she settling for less than my complete self? Isn't she getting the short end of the stick while I'm having fun?

You should see it from my Boots(puss in ...) . I'm just a stranger, hardly of any importance in your life. But since I don't know you, I have the advantage of not giving you a biased opinion, because i don't have anything to gain.

Sometimes a man has to learn to become responsible. No one desires it, well I'm hardly the man to be advising you, I hate being a responsible individual on most days but I have never run away from any of them and I'm sorry to say Collier, in my honest opinion, you are running away. Whatever's going to happen is inevitable but all you're doing by over analyzing and not implementing is prolonging your torture, your wife's agony even though she might not know it. your lover's agony and her husband's.

You honestly believe that you'll have a successful relationship? A relationship thats been built on four years of lies. A relationship that has never been tested?

Oh you might feel that with this woman everything's going to work out but let me tell you, any relationship begins that way, don't remember the time when you met your wife or are you rewriting what happened to suit your script?

Think about it.........

ReturnOfTheKitty

To be honest, the only reason I created another account was because my wife saw this thread and it reminded her about her own infidelity and she badgered me to create another account. I'm not really getting a kick out of telling you to leave your AP and go back to your wife, I'm just asking you to open your eyes to reality. A reality not plagued by feelings for the OW( The Affair Fog).

Wonder what happened to my wife? The OM threw her under the bus when he realized that she was actually addled enough to leave me. Guess what happened next, I had her served. And then she spiraled down until her situation became so bleak that I, the benevolent person that I am, decided to pull the plug on D for the moment. But I always kept it open and periodically kept referencing it just to watch her writhe. Add some name calling, physical and emotional abuse over the next couple of years.

You understand how much more worse it might get? I'm not saying its going to happen, it just might though.

Why not spare yourself that much more pain? We weren't able to, I honestly think that my wife and I had one of the most painful reconciliations. Doesn't have to be that painful you know, coming clean may just be the key to waking up from this nightmare of 4 years.

RichardCollier

AffairCair: Excellent post. You definitely hit the bull's eye on many points. I will respond to that as soon as I can. Maybe tomorrow. It's really late now :-\

CpaCan: I was a cake-eater for 4 years, but not any longer. I'm overly "stuffed" with cake I can't take the thought of another bite. But you are correct that I lost every ounce of respect for not only my wife, our marriage, but our "relationship". After several years of the 'semi-happy' bull crap (and nothing getting done to fix it) I completely lost any emotional investment interest that I had. In my situation though, the marriage was not "awful", "abusive", or "bad". Just severely unfulfilling on the emotional side. It was VERY fulfilling on the raising kids + family side. The holidays. Family trips, etc. I'm specifically talking about the inter-relationship between me and my wife.

I didn't even realize at the time to how vulnerable I was to engaging in an affair. Prior to these last 4 years I have led an honest life. But indeed, it happened. While I respected my wife as a mother (for the most part, she's an amazing mother), I had no respect for her as a companion. Even without that respect, the relationship wasn't terrible enough to downright leave. We still got along pretty well (just no passion). We still had sex fairly frequently (a few times per month). But sex does NOT equal passion (2 different things). There is literally a whole "laundry list" of complaints that never got fixed (back then) that I could bring up, but it's pointless. The bottom line is that my inappropriate attachment with the co-worker grew & grew very strongly. At first the attachment grew blindly under my nose, but eventually reached a point where I made the inappropriate willful decision to engage in an emotional & physical relationship with this other woman.

You love to put words in my mouth, and assume I don't fear discovery. I absolutely fear discovery, but what I fear even more than that is unnecessary damage & destruction. I have no desire to "disguise my TRUE self". I have a desire to disguise my PREVIOUS self. You assume people like me don't change (that once a cheater, always a cheater). Given the fact I vastly prefer my OLD self... I am very confident that I will be capable of making the necessary changes to get back to my OLD self again and proactively make adjustments so this mistake never happens again. I'm not a bumbling idiot. I do learn from my mistakes. You don't personally know me, but I know there are plenty of others like you that like to "blanket generalize" who I am simply because I'm the wayward/disloyal spouse.

As for respecting my wife, that really isn't any of your business (or this board's). But I will say that I gained a huge amount of respect back for her this past year... something that was once completely lost definitely has rebuilt itself. I need to work things through to decide if it's now too late (for ME in terms of MY involvement) or if I should give up the dream with OW and move on & forward with my wife. You seem to think that if I move foward with my wife you automatically assume my "heart" wouldn't be totally invested. You are wrong. If I do make the choice I will most definitely put all my heart and soul into (passionately) loving my wife again and working through the rough spots to make things as good as possible.

Back to AffairCair: Unfortunately, I do doubt the inter-personal connection I have with my wife will ever reach the level I have with the OW though. I guess I would need to accept their differences and learn to appreciate what I have vs. longing for what I don't have.

I feel compelled to define "THE ONE" and "THE LOVE OF MY LIFE" in what it means. I'm specifically talking about the interaction + communication. The verbal + non-verbal. The sexual and intimate compatibility. The "very best friend" friendship compatibility. The longing + adoration + craving (passion).

I do not know of this "Biggs" personality test, but I suppose there is a lot of science to why the OW fell into place as the woman who totally "gets me" versus the wife I've spent over 20 years with. Hint: It isn't my imagination on the dopamine drug. But for whatever reason... call it dopamine (for pleasure re-inforcement) or oxytocin (for "bonding"). For some reason this OW was exclusively chosen by my mind, body, and soul at that time. Just because a person totally "gets" another doesn't mean there's any chemistry. Just because one person is attracted to another doesn't mean the same feelings would be mutually fed back. It takes two to tango, and the in-love ball grew very large... and very quickly during this exchange with the OW. I'm sure it's a combination of mutual attraction + dopamine + oxytocin + maybe some other scientific phermone "naked to the eye" element that creates such a bond of such intensity. In layman's perspective, I will just simplly call it... LOVE.

Romance-wise, Intimacy-wise, Friendship-wise, Companionship-wise, this OW is (without a doubt) the woman of my dreams. The way we naturally interact is never forced, and has always been the way I wanted with my spouse (but never thrived or got to that level).

Just like many posters like to state how I follow the "Lost in the Fog" script there is an equal script to one living in a semi-happy passionless marriage. I'm sure I fit both examples strikingly close. But "LOVE OF YOUR LIFE" does NOT necessarily mean "MOST COMPATIBLE". In a world of billions of people I'm sure there are hundreds (if not thousands) that you could potentially come across that totally fit the romantic bill from head to toe.
Clearly there are many forms of love, and I was blessed (and CURSED) by the highest form of it.

What I'm saying is that even such a connection to this extent is extremely rare. It's a bonus if that other person also shares most of your same interests (which... in my case the OW does NOT share many of my interests). Also, in my case, the OW and myself would be entering a new relationship with hand-over-fist problems. My problems will become her problems. Her problems will become my problems. And the windfall of the destruction of 2 divorces will become BOTH of our problems. With all of this baggage, even when a woman may very well be the love of your life it DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THE RELATIONSHIP IS THE MOST COMPATIBLE!

So, in a nutshell... that's the position I am in. Coming out of the fog, I am starting to believe the likelihood there would be too much problems and baggage for the relationship with the love of my life to be successful. The REAL 24/7 relationship I have is, by nature, a much more "compatible" one. But clearly not free of problems (it surely wasn't all that compatible the last several years, was it? Especially the last four years.

The main thing that has given me hope with the relationship with my wife is the drastic positive changes I've seen this past year. While I agree with you the "OLD" relationship between my wife and I must be considered "dead" to successfully continue (I've read that phrase several times on other sites) I do think it's possible for people to actively change - whether it be on their own or through MC or IC.

I believe the previous moving out of the house incident was a bit enough wake-up call for my wife to change. This website (and the overstuffed feeling of eating cake) was enough drive to help me willingingly make the choice to change.

One way or another, I will live an honest life from this day forward. Even if it means I decide to protect my wife from the truth about the affair (if that's the road I choose), this doesn't mean the "new" relationship with my wife will be susceptible to cheating again. I've already said I'm not going down that road ever again. There needs to be a mutual effort where we both (as husband and wife) are meeting each other's needs. My wife may have been mostly satisfied in the semi-happy state we were in, but clearly I wasn't. But I'm sure there are other areas in the marriage where my wife isn't comletely satisfied that I'm sure I will need to improve on. If I can't do it on my own, I realize I may need to go to IC (or perhaps MC).

All I'm saying is there can still be an avenue to where the "old" marriage is considered "dead" while a newer (better) relationship is created. The lies & deceit are in the old marriage (not the new). Like Hotdogs has stated, I too do not see anything good that can possibly come out from disclosing the affair to her. If I choose to stay home with the wife and family I can still make it my own mission to turn over a new leaf to be 100.0% devoted to my wife and family... making all of them as happy as I can.

Also (for the record), it wasn't just one problem that led me to stray. It was a series of problems over the years that chipped away and dwindled my emotional investment with my WIFE. For many years she didn't take me seriously, and I guess one day a switch turned when I no longer took her seriously. I have learned a hard but valuable lesson in my experience with cheating and this affair. Because I've lived through it all I'm sure I can see the warning signs as they come. But even so, there are actions I can pre-emptively take to prevent any kind of "mutual attraction" with a 3rd party in the future. There are steps one can take to not get entangled in that trap.

So whether I'm spending the rest of my life with OW, my wife, or alone back to square one I already have a whole new set of rules to how I should conduct myself in the future. I just hope fairly soon things finally start to get better.

RichardCollier

I've said numerous times that I have great doubts things will easily work out between the OW and myself. I think the odds are HUGELY STACKED AGAINST our favor. It's not because I'm illusioned into thinking she's the "love of my life" (see previous post for my definition of it). It's more because of the unfortunate baggage that will be stockpiled the moment a new relationship starts. I think the OW has always grossly underestimated the diffulties that would begin in such a post-aftermath relationship. If anything, being in the fog made me minimize the risk of things actually being successful in the new relationship (because of the baggage and unforseen problems).

I don't believe for an instant that being "in the fog" made me re-write scripts or justify reasons that it was "okay to cheat". I don't think I was severely "deep" in the fog. But I most certainly was extremely deep in limbo! There's a great amount of anxiety and depression that's coupled with such a high-intense passionate relationship. I guess if a person is capable of having a super-high intense loving relationship with a person they CAN have... it's gotta be out of this world. But having a super high-intense loving relationship with a person you CAN'T have is absolute torture.

Even though I made a promise, if the marriage was downright awful I would have broken that promise and divorced to find someone better. This is clearly not the case.

I do believe people should not break their words on promises. If it was a mistake for me to marry my wife at the time (making a promise to stay together until death do us part), I'm fully aware the better time to revolk that promise is BEFORE children... BEFORE a family is started. That just makes things more unfair. I'm not saying in my case it's perfectly right to divorce, but I am saying there are situations when it is not only necessary but also imperatively RIGHT (even though that initial promise would need to be broken).

I've never felt that I was in a situation where it was "right" to divorce my family. I believe that is why I backed away from it on my previous attempts.

RichardCollier

p.s. The "high-intensity" of passion is an amazing rollercoaster ride. The HIGHEST of highs, and the LOWEST of lows. It definitely is a similar beast as gambling. I have no doubts this "dopamine" is chemically present in both, and addiction can be triggered by the fluctuation of highs & lows.

Crazy Bear

I read the first dozen pages then I saw it all keeps repeating the same loop. You really want input from both sides? OK. Like you I had a LTA for years and I thought I was really in love with OW. It seemed real. At the time I believed it was real. But when I finally had the guts to confess to my W, I was able to come out of the fog and see that it was just a fantasy not a real relationship. God what a horrible mistake it would have been if I'd ever thought to leave W for OW. I can tell you won't believe me now either, but you want input and that's the truth.

Also you have to tell your W the truth. She may overcome, she may not, but it is not up to YOU to make HER decisions about HER life. As you put it, if there's a bomb coming I'd want to know about it, not be kept in the dark because someone else thinks they know what's best for me. I bet you'd want that too. So would your W.

ReturnOfTheKitty

I'm sorry but i get the feeling that you're repeating the same thing from the past 13 pages. This site is not a place that condones affairs or validates them. And I think you are looking for validation, even though you might not realize it yourself. If you want help you have to be open to suggestions of those who have been in your shoes before rather than getting on the defensive or going round in circles with the pretext of analyzing your situation.

Count of Monte Cristo

Richard, you're suffering from paralysis of analysis.

(BTW, does your wife complain about this trait?)

bigtone128

Okay my turn - your AP has the easiest job in the world.......sit back criticize your wife, saying stuff like "I would NEVER treat you like the way she does, that's horrible..." and NEVER having to endure living with you, never having to wash you dirty underwear, etc...my ex went to work complaining about me and my controlling nature, etc. BUT omitted the fact that she had numerous indiscretions, and EAs to which I demanded complete openess from her....she left out THOSE facts when she was bad-mouthing me to coworker buddy who became her lover....she left out the fact that she over-spent and saddled me with so much debt, that I had to work hard to pay it off, she left out the fact she was bossy, manipulative, controlling - which made it hard to be initimate with her...she only told her AP HER side of the story.......let your wife sit down with your affair partner and tell her what it is REALLY like to live with her......my ex last only a few months with her affair partner who she worked with.........turns out she wasnt who she presented herself to be.......I knew that anyway...truth is your AP is only getting part of the truth.

cpacan

You say you HAD no respect for her... would you say that your current actions and attitude shows her you respect her now?

It's a weakness of mine, I know, sorry bout that.

Maybe you are right that your lack of respect for your wife is not my business or this boards business. You may take it or leave it, you asked for opinions when you chose to post at the forum. MY opinion is, that without respect, you can't have a fullfilling, satisfying and loving relationship with your wife.

And from my own personal experience, that is, I would prefer to have all information available about my life partner, when I am to decide if I want the relationship or not. You are denying your wife that option. And that's why I THINK it is the honourable thing to do, to give your wife the opportunity to search for greener grass.

In my opinion this is contradictory. You don't live an honest life if you "protect your wife from the truth".


Things won't get better unless YOU change something in the mix.

The true nature of the fog is... well, you can't see that you are in it, and no I DON'T THINK you are coming out of it just yet.

You talk a lot about feelings. You seem to forget, that feelings are temporary and... well, just feelings. Your wife and family are made of flesh and blood, and the things you have experienced together, and your perception of it, contributes to define you as a person.

If you haven't read it already, I would suggest a book for you. It's called "The Four Agreemnets", and the essence of it is, that the whole world and your entire life are just stories, what YOU make of it. Your wife see a totally different world, so do I, and the other posters. Why won't you share your view with your wife?

To quote Affaircare:
"DEMONSTRATE it by having the discernment to see through the justications you've been telling yourself. DEMONSTRATE it by realizing that if you put as much time and effort into getting to know your wife as you do to your mistress, you'd have a GREAT marriage"

I just THINK you are scared.

ReturnOfTheKitty

So this is your definition of the highest form of love?

Man I kind of get the mind in a muddle scenario surrounding you but, really? You know, like seriously?

As I see it, the only blessing is a load of dopamine and a nice touch of fantasy. I don't think I'll need to elaborate the curses that come as a bonus.

You haven't done drugs I suppose. Heroin pretty much releases the same dopamine in your brain except that the amounts are crazily high when compared to affair sex. So there's heroin and then there's the abuser and he's warped in the fantasy of happily ever after with all the flowery things and drool and the vacant expression and then some more drool.

And the end result after years and years of abuse. An arm that looks weirdly like swiss cheese, an addled brain and many many more side effects.

SomedayDig

Rich, you're not truly interested in advice from TAM members. It seems you're just looking for someone to finally go along with what YOU want to do: never tell your wife how badly you screwed the marriage. That would take courage. That would take trust. I haven't seen those qualities in your posts.

I've seen a ton of excuses and an overused psychobabble term "semi-happy marriage".
Posted via Mobile Device

ing

You have advice from people:

1. who have cheated and recovered their marriage.
2. from people who have been on your wifes end of things.
3. from people who have Divorced and moved on.
4. from people with no experience on either side.

Maybe this will help clear up the problem
The parrot is resting..

RichardCollier

I love monty python.

iheartlife

I know it's already been said, and I know I'm wasting my breath.

Anyhow, here goes.

Cheating is a cowardly act. It is the choice of someone who thinks they're entitled to happiness, regardless of the cost to anyone else. How do we know this? Because in Western countries, divorce and cheating are easy, but loyalty and faithfulness are hard.

You have chosen the easy, selfish path, Richard. Infidelity is the very definition, the epitome of selfishness. Besides, marriage counseling, it's a pain in the rear. Not to mention a snore. All that introspection, self-examination, guilt--why deliberately subject yourself to unpleasantness one second longer than necessary.




You want to be profoundly loved. You think you have that. In fact, the reason you've carried on as long as you have is that you think it's your RIGHT. In fact, based solely on YOUR description of your behavior, you believe your rights trump everyone else's.

But you're perfectly willing to indefinitely (or at least for many years) deprive your wife of that very thing--the right to feel special and loved by someone who thinks SHE hung the moon. She doesn't get to make a choice, whether it's you (kind of hope not based on all you've said) or someone else who will deeply connect with her. Because you feel perfectly entitled, via twists in logic, to continue to deprive her of that with every passing day.



You had lots of time to decide whether your love is the "One." And if she was the "One" you sure aren't treating her like the queen she supposedly is. She isn't the public official partner to you. So with every second that passes, you "love" her but you're not willing to accord that love with the respect that such "deep" love would ordinarily deserve. So you "love" her, but only up to a point.

So the truth is, you don't want to decide. Things are pretty darn good from the navel-gazing perch from which you sit.

__________________
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

Turning the Mind Into an Ally