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Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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Old 03-25-2013, 10:36 AM   #76 (permalink)
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To go back and answer your broader question, the question of opposite sex friends was never really discussed as a boundary before my wife's EA.

Now there is absolutely no friends of the opposite sex permitted. She is to have no individual personal time with another male. We can go out as a couple, go out with other married couples, but there is no GNO and no girl + guy-friend stuff ever again.

My wife is genuinely remorseful, and the difference between her actions and your BF's are striking. She did the NC and purging him from her FB and other places immediately and without my demands. Yours says he will break it off, but won't on his own. He already should have done this. You are going to have to demand it and then demand constant verification. Yours is trickle-truthing you about the situation, sadly. You keep having to pry and pry, only to get another small sliver of the truth out of him each time, all the while trying to run interference on this girl because he won't end it decisively.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:45 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Very true. He kept begging me yesterday. When I mentioned KISA to him, I saw a light bulb go on. He realizes he does it. He is begging me to stand by him. He says he is grateful and needs me to be there and help him thru it, that I can alert him to things when he's trying to save someone and doesn't realize.

I don't wanna be a babysitter. I cant babysit if he lies anyway. Ill never know. If he will get help, then fine, I'll stand by him. But he needs professional help as this is an issue with all aspects of his life.

He's been researching it since I mentioned it yesterday. I gave him several examples and it did seem like he accepted its true.

Thanks for your invaluable insight.
Yes, you shouldn't have to babysit another adult for any reason.

My WS is in IC because of the adultery but the KISA stuff came up along the way. He and his therapist are addressing it. I have noticed my WS is starting to see the err of his ways and the sort of person his KISA behavior attracts into his life and ultimately our lives; the xOW, his sister, others. I wouldn't say he's out of the woods but there has been improvement.

I would say IC is a must, for the KISA behavior along with the lying and sneakiness. Good luck.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:55 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Is a KISA better or worse than a white Knight? :-)
Posted via Mobile Device
Oh hey guy I don't know. I think there is a difference from being a protector and trying to fix someone.

I have not been following this topic. I will just say that I am wifes wingman and she is my wingwoman. This has saved our marriage. We look out for each other. One has to understand the tunnel vision that we have when we are very close to things. They have to understand the mating ritual. The brain chemicals at play. Our judgement gets impaired with our firends. We love them already. Our boundaries slide for them becuase of this. This is where EAs are incepted. Having a spouse at your wing can help you see things that are obscured. Being an adult is not enough. One has to have a clue as well.

Blind trust is ambivalent, lazy and for sure naive. Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by-product. Anyone who thinks that their character is all they need to protect them from an EA does not realize that a requirement for an EA to begin is to have this attitude.

So while I am for sure my wife's Dark Knight she is my Guardian Angel. This has worked for us for 36 years.

I can see the reference above is to a man who was a KISA for another woman. NFW. This is very messed up. That said I can see how this happens. This happens with EAs as a man wants to become the protector for them. Bad idea. I get helping friends but this is just another reason why having close opposite sex friends becomes a problem.

Last edited by Entropy3000; 03-25-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:56 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Ugh - we've had this conversation many, many times in our house. BH is a rescuer. He's the one many of his female friends turn to in a crisis to help them through it.

I can tell you as the other half, it is very hard to take.

There is a point where the conversation has to be had of where you feel the boundaries should be and asking him to respectfully abide by those boundaries out of his love for you.

I wish I had taken my own advice years ago since it would have saved me many years of feeling 'lesser' than the others.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:01 AM   #80 (permalink)
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To go back and answer your broader question, the question of opposite sex friends was never really discussed as a boundary before my wife's EA.

Now there is absolutely no friends of the opposite sex permitted. She is to have no individual personal time with another male. We can go out as a couple, go out with other married couples, but there is no GNO and no girl + guy-friend stuff ever again.

My wife is genuinely remorseful, and the difference between her actions and your BF's are striking. She did the NC and purging him from her FB and other places immediately and without my demands. Yours says he will break it off, but won't on his own. He already should have done this. You are going to have to demand it and then demand constant verification. Yours is trickle-truthing you about the situation, sadly. You keep having to pry and pry, only to get another small sliver of the truth out of him each time, all the while trying to run interference on this girl because he won't end it decisively.
I understand how hard the cheater attempts to hold onto their lie. I was wondering if a fully converted and transparent relationship partner is more fun than one that might be a little slicker and slide one in on you once in a while.

I know it's not fun at all to be lied to or cheated on!
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:10 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Sadly, he is not remorseful. Since he won't admit the relationship is inappropriate, in his mind (and as a front to me) its ok. So he's never shown remorse. Never apologized.

The reaction I expected was: tell her no more contact, purge her from FB, etc.. Apologize for hurting my feelings, misleading me and lying to me, doing whatever he could in his power to prove the friendship was nothing more than that.

But I can see it in his eyes: he's terrified of me seeing those messages.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:15 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Sadly, he is not remorseful. Since he won't admit the relationship is inappropriate, in his mind (and as a front to me) its ok. So he's never shown remorse. Never apologized.

The reaction I expected was: tell her no more contact, purge her from FB, etc.. Apologize for hurting my feelings, misleading me and lying to me, doing whatever he could in his power to prove the friendship was nothing more than that.

But I can see it in his eyes: he's terrified of me seeing those messages.
Point out to him the complete contradiction.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:02 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Point out to him the complete contradiction.
Yes, I absolutely will. I think I need to collect my thoughts and be away from him for a day or two before I jump back into this. I feel like my head might explode sometimes!! Just the dumb nonsense that comes out of his mouth makes me so aggravated. It's all a made up lie, whatever comes to mind first. Ugh.

Frustrated.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:04 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Godspeed and my best wishes. It sucks being here. It's the one social club no one wants to be part of.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:08 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Godspeed and my best wishes. It sucks being here. It's the one social club no one wants to be part of.
The "cheated" :-)
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:51 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I'm an official member. I feel like part of the group.

As crappy as it is to be in this situation, I'm glad I found this place. It's good to know I'm not alone and can come here to vent, get great advice, try to help others, and open my eyes mostly!!

I'm still home. 12 hour days make it hard to face packing up for a couple days. I do have two days off this week, I will be getting some alone time. In the meantime I can only try to be cordial and keep my cool. But what I really want to do is SCREAM!

Ok, sorry for rambling. I'm going to go write in a journal.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:37 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Ok, I wrote a template sort of. I don't plan on giving it as a letter, but rather having it in hand when we talk. We have the next several days off work and no kids will be around. I've collected myself a little, and I think it's time to address this so I can work at our future engagement, or work on separating. I bet lots of you will say it's too long. I agree, but it's just noted for me.

Please advise me! Is this dumb? Too much? Anything I missed? Thanks in advance for your help you guys. (And gals)


Notes/letter:

Usually I like to write pages and pages about how much I love and adore you, and how good you are to me.

While I most certainly still love you, I'm not sure about the other things anymore. Matter of fact, you could say I'm positive those things aren't true. I really appreciated the letter you gave me on Tuesday. Although I liked it tremendously, It wasn't what I expected to hear, or what I deserve to hear. I feel like you are trying to move away from the real issue at hand. Truth is, after all of our discussions about the matter, I still KNOW NOTHING NEW.

I thought about highlighting parts that I feel like you are rugsweeping or discounting our relationship issues, but decided to go ahead and write what I truly expected you to write and/or say to me, if you truly indeed are not having an inappropriate relationship with another woman.

First of all, I never questioned the fact that I am on your mind a lot. The hurtful truth is just that I'm not the only one. I'm not your one and only. That's the reason you say, "you know you're my one and only" as often as you do. You're either trying to convince me, or yourself. I guess it really doesn't matter who. But as I said: here is what a truly remorseful person would have written. Someone who really is telling the truth (which you're still not) so here it goes:

(My name),
Please. I beg of you. Believe that I care nothing for no one else in the manner I care for you. Not even slightly. Not even a tinge of romantic or otherwise inappropriateness for another person. Please believe me! What can I do to prove to you I don't care for anyone else? There's nothing I wouldn't do.
Please let me prove it to you. How can I prove to you I don't care? I will find the texts myself. I will show all of them to you. I do not want your head filled with doubt.
I apologize for even placing doubt there in the first place. I should have realized how you felt about this sort of thing the first time it all happened. I should have learned from that, but I didn't!
I have put another woman in your place. I check her facebook a lot. I know I contradict myself in the fact that one day I tell you I rarely talk to her, it's a once in while type thing, and in the next breath I am telling you I must check up on her facebook page if I don't hear from her because I am so consumed with fear as to what might be wrong with the girl. It's become a problem.

End of message. . .

But you cannot say or write any of those things. Because it doesn't occur to you to say them. Because it's all lies with you, all the time. You could never tell me the truth. The truth mixes with you like oil with water.

You're terrified of me seeing the messages. That's why you delete them in the first place! If there was nothing wring or inappropriate about the texts, you would have never gone to such great lengths to get rid if them, hide them, and never mention the relationship to me. Never.

You shouldn't be turning to another woman.
I cannot understand why in gods name you cannot understand why it's so inappropriate or why it hurts me.

Another fact is that you absolutely have no respect for me. You didn't have any when I told you I felt uncomfortable with you texting (her name), yet you continued to do so. . And you've continued to do that even after you've known it upsets me.
The only conclusion I can draw from all of it is that you couldn't care any less about my feelings. You'll continue to inappropriately engage in emotional relationships with another woman even though it hurts me.

You hide it well. You also allow her to undermine our relationship and publicly disrespect me on a public forum. She plays you well, just as you play me.

But I never play you, yet you hold allegiance to her. That's fine if that's what you want. But you cannot have me too, I'm sorry. You'll have to continue your other relationship that loves all the drama. I don't love drama, and I don't want to be a part of it any longer.

You have NEVER taken ownership about this specifically. You've never apologized to me about this specifically. You are enthralled with another woman. Slice it any way you want. You call it 'worried', I call it 'enthralled'. You've never said you felt wrong about talking to her about anything, ever: yet you delete texts and hide the relationship? But if it's not wrong, why hide it? You say, "I don't know" YES YOU DO KNOW. You should have admitted it to me by now. You refuse to. It's hurtful.

Our relationship is not a relationship I want to have carrying on like this. Me having to worry about who you are carrying on with in an emotional capacity is hurtful. I don't want to live like that! Your highest of highs, lowest of lows, feelings, etc. belong to your partner. No one else. I get to share those things with you, no one else does. That's what a relationship is. She has her own friends to go to. Or boyfriends. But you are attached to her. Obviously. It has broken my heart, there's no way to repair the damage. You refuse to anyway. You're giving a part of yourself to another woman that is not me.

This shouldn't be happening so early on in our relationship. Ten years down the road I could see having maybe ONE problem like this. But there's been too much deceit, and this early on, on top of it. It's a pattern with you, I am convinced you'll continually do it. That you NEED to do it. You cannot help yourself.

You know what that tells me? That I'm not enough for you. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. You need other people, you aren't getting what you need from me. That's obvious. That's why you're constantly saying that I am your one and only. You're trying to convince yourself.
I'm already convinced its not true. I have some of the proof in front of me. The rest you won't admit to.

So, you have the power to solve this. Hook up your computer in front of me. Plug your phone into iTunes in front of me, and back up your files in front of me. I can find the file that contains the deleted texts and I can read them.

If you truly have nothing to hide, you'll do it. If you refuse to do it, I'll know you do indeed have something to hide. And you can count on this: I will be done. I won't allow you to stand in front of God and all of the people in our lives that we care about and LIE. Forsaking all others for me. That's not true. I can't do it, I won't allow it. It hurts to the depths of my soul. It hurts too much. And I will begin shutting myself down and rebuilding my wall. You will never have all of me. The same way I don't have all of you.

So, prove yourself to me, or lose me.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:22 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Please take this out.

Quote:
This shouldn't be happening so early on in our relationship. Ten years down the road I could see having maybe ONE problem like this. But there's been too much deceit, and this early on, on top of it. It's a pattern with you, I am convinced you'll continually do it. That you NEED to do it. You cannot help yourself.
You're not married to him and the kids aren't his. I told my fiance (before he was my fiance but still asking for more time) that he could either keep his "friend" or he could have me as a girlfriend, but he could not have both.

Fortunately, we weren't living together at the time, so my plan would have been to simply see him less ......and less.

For you, you should decide what you would need to do for either or both of you to move out.

Consider yourself lucky that this problem showed itself sooner rather than later. I think what helped me was that he knew that it was easy for me to move on. Despite his stupid jokes about my age ( which I now know was inspired by his 20 something "friend") he did admit that he knew when we went places that men were checking me out and that when we went to meetup activities in particular that the men who approached me were hitting on me.

In other words, I had options and I could have left him in the dust. (I'm going to use some of Machiavelli's philosophy but tailored to women.....) You should carry yourself in a manner that shows that you know you have options too. Too much "'splaining" only says "I'm weak.....I hope to convince you." Convince him through your actions.

Before you give him this talk, have you thought about moving out, what it would take, how long given rental agreements, finding another place other resources..... have that stuff to hand when you speak to him. What saved my relationship was the fact that he immediately agreed with me; offered to do an NC phone call or letter; when she texted him again, he said that he would text her anything I wanted him to say and so on....... If your guy hesitates, then say simply "well, I won't be keeping you......."

I learned from the last failed marriage, talk is cheap.... so don't waste your time doing it.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:36 AM   #89 (permalink)
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I understand how hard the cheater attempts to hold onto their lie. I was wondering if a fully converted and transparent relationship partner is more fun than one that might be a little slicker and slide one in on you once in a while.

I know it's not fun at all to be lied to or cheated on!
There can't be real fun and intimacy without total trust, IMO. I think "fun" and "integrity" are not mutually exclusive terms.

As a BS, I can tell you there is ZERO fun looking over your shoulder constantly, worried why they are late, spying on their phone. It's a hellish existence.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:46 AM   #90 (permalink)
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I dumped most of the template.

I basically told him he needs to find some way to recover the messages (I know there is one), do it, or I'm out. Or admit what they really say. I want both.

I am not on the lease. I couldn't sign any legally binding docs at the time as I was going thru bankruptcy. His is the only name on the lust, I am an occupant. So if I go, he'll be sort of screwed. He can afford it, but his savings will take a hit.

I have him my "ultimatum" of sorts last night. He hasn't spoken to me since.

I will be leaving the day after Easter. It's clear he'll never be honest. I can't live like that.
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