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When you find out the 'details' of the PA....

96K views 265 replies 76 participants last post by  nuclearnightmare 
#1 ·
....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?

...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.

...this all has been brought to the front burner by:

1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)

2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.

My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].

....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.

...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.

....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "does it really matter 17 years later"? I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. (too bad TAM didn't exist then). She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".

...I told her ..."you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them"...." what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"? She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.

....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".

...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.
 
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#117 ·
Hurtin',

I would never recommend you actually do this, but if there was ever a WS who could benefit from a RA slap in the face it would be your WW.

I think a RA (though I'm not against them on general principles) would be more damaging to you personally, so I DO NOT advise you to do it.

But I think it would very eye-opening for your unrepentant WW to suddenly have to face her own questions of who, where, what, and why.

I'll bet her entire perspective on your 'issues' and 'sickness' would be altered dramatically.
 
#119 ·
....you're correct ...it would be more damaging to me.

....I'm not perfect ....I never said I was ...nor will I ever attain that status. I will ...however ...hold to my principles ...and NEVER inflict pain on another ...like I had put on me ...even my wife.

.....and I guess that your last comment ...verifies that it's normal to be obsessed with that which has had such a profound impact on ones life ...and yet pieces of the puzzle are still missing.
 
#118 ·
This was written by Mrs. John Adams and given to John Adams. When I read it I only wished my wife had written it and/or sent it to me. I still argue with myself as to whether or not I should give it to my wife as the situation is very similar to the Adams. Maybe you should give this to your wife so that she may understand.

I cannot undo what i have done or said but i can promise to do better. I promise to love and cherish you all the days of my life. I promise to put your feelings before mine. I promise to be there for you when you need to cry, when you need me to squeeze your hand, when you need me to say how very much i love you. I promise to be the kind of wife you have always deserved. The kind of wife God provided for you 41 years ago and i messed up. I stole the innocence of our youth and instead gave you a life of pain. I cannot take it away but i can do better.

I have always loved you and i sure have a poor way if showing it. I loved myself first. I am not worthy of your love or loyalty but i am so thankful for it.

Please forgive me and give me the chance to prove to you how very sorry i am for hurting you.
 
#120 ·
Hurtin'

Yes, your basically good hearted nature is apparent in what you have shared here.

The mere fact that you have been willing to continue M with her when she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with her actions shows that.

And I agree, for YOU personally, it would probably be even more devastating to feel like you failed yourself.

My point really was that some people, and your WW seems to be one of them, are so unempathetic towards others that they will NEVER truly understand how badly they have f'd up until it happens TO them and they get to experience all the pain and suffering they have been dishing out.

She is lucky that she doesn't have a more vindictive partner.
 
#122 ·
....I appreciate your kind commentary.

....I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long. Imagine that .....I'm hurt! Who woulda' thought it possible.....?:scratchhead:

....something comes to mind....regarding my therapist: She did at one point ...after meeting me ...then my wife ....then both of us together .....say that I just might be holding on to this 'hurt' for a bit too long. In a joint session with my wife ...I did at one point get on the topic that I would have ...nor ever will ...cheat on her. (this ...as I recall ...was in reply to a snarky remark from my wife ...which was something like "do you want to sleep with someone to get even with me"?)

.....then later ...in a solo session with the therapist .....the conversation focused on my concerns about "details" ...and how that aspect (the sex) consumed me. The therapist was, in my opinion, getting to the point where I felt she was about to label me as being a bit over-consumed with it ...to the point of being 'childish' ...for lack of a better term. Then ...I revealed to her that the depth of my hurt ...was maybe bit more intense ...because my wife ...was the ONLY person I ever slept with ...ever (and she with me ..until the ONS). The therapist did a complete ..."slam the brakes hold the phone ......let me turn this around move" ....when she heard this, and started talking in a way that indicated that perhaps I wasn't so 'childish' ...because I had lost (in this day and age at least) something very rare ...and special (at least to me).

....I face the fact that I'm not a male model type, with washboard abs, a million bucks in the bank, and porn star equipment. So the mere fact that my wife wanted to have sex with me to begin with ...was a wonder to me ...and I cherished it.

.....maybe I am a bit immature regarding the whole sex thing? I am what I suppose people may label as a 'romantic' ...and things like that (monogamy) ...I hold (held) very near and dear to me. Silly me.....
 
#121 ·
Why not just start a fight every single day until you get the identity of the man plus the details? If you make things miserable enough for her, eventually she will either tell you or leave you.

If it were me I would go even further and refuse to clean up after myself and pay the bills until she tells you.
 
#129 ·
Hurtin_Still;1522235 ...after 17 years said:
But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name [/B]...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
Hurtin, Hurtin, Hurtin...

I'm 4+ years into R with my FWW (multiple OM when caught).

I know somewhere I have posted in your past... Here the TRUTH... even if you get your wife to finally open up and tell you some details, she will withhold the worst and take them to the grave. For her it was 17 years ago, she has lived and buried them long ago. It means nothing to her now, "a thousand miles downstream". I know for you... it's 15 minutes ago and burning a hole in your side.

Now hear a BS Truth that is universal...

If you so chose to R... there is only a limited amount of time... it depends... but... 6 months, 2 years, not much longer that you can grill the WS on the details. Even the C will not give you much love after the "TV Time Limit" has expired. Sorry for the truth... but this should be in the BS Handbook Post 1.

But at 17 years, still in R, she has been faithful to the Nth... you options are very limited. Live with it or D.

Hey... I not trying to be all Bad A$$ here... I'm in the same boat, it's off limits, my own IC pushed me out the door. Just the reality of the BS that chooses R.
 
#131 ·
"I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long."

This is just a CLEAR sign of how f'd up her sense of empathy truly is. She is totally selfish and that's the root of both her ONS and her refusal to deal with consequences for her actions.

And i would tell her and any therapist around to go yo h**l if they tried to tell me I was 'childish' and 'holding on too long' to my anger over something my spouse wasn't even repentant about.

F that...forgiveness is ONLY for people who show remorse and a willingness to repair the damage they have done (and IMO even then some wrongs are simply red lines I would never forgive or forget).

Give forgiveness to a person who isn't sorry for the injury the did me?

They're dreaming.
 
#136 ·
Because it might be someone close to them or known to them. I see no other logical explanation why not divulge the name if it was 17 years ago.

Imagine if it was some man who's been in your house, been out with, who was the one who your WW banged.

That's just my guess.
 
#139 ·
I think it is more likely someone they both know because of her sexual background as well.

If she had only been with Hurtin' before her ONS, then I think it is MUCH MORE likely that when she decided to stray it was with someone she already knew and trusted so she could still feel somewhat 'safe' (as stupid as that sounds in this situation).

Some random POS she met in a 'bowling alley' would not have given her that sense of security to go through with it for a variety of reasons (her lack of sexual experience/IQ for example)

But, if this was someone they know, it was probably more than a ONS, which is another reason she has resisted coming clean for 17 years.
 
#142 ·
Another idea.

Go out with some friends and don't come home that night, stay with a friend or a hotel. Don't answer your phone.

Even better would be to stage a photo of your friend and in the background have you be Close to a woman and then have your friend post that pic to facebook or something that your wife would see.

Get back the next day and don't tell her what you did.

Basically get her to beleive that you did something that you didn't do.
 
#147 ·
The point is you need this information to move on. She is unwilling to give it. What are you willing to do?

She does not believe you would leave her if she does not tell you but she is sure you will leave her if she tells you.

You need to flip the rules around on her. She needs to know that you will most likely stay if you know but there is no chance if she does not tell you.

You either have to file for a D or tell her to get out. Or you learn to live without this information
 
#149 ·
.....that's another of her 'answers' that she gives when we discussed that very subject in therapy. She says she does 'want' sex a lot more than I know ...but, she doesn't feel like it when I'm upset and angry all the time. It a frikkin' Catch 22 situation .....she won't "be' with me more ...because I'm hurt / angry ...and I can't feel like I'm "the one" unless she makes me feel more loved / desired.

...yup ...it sucks a lot.
 
#150 ·
...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.
You've never forgiven her....That's alot of resentment built up over the years there.

You need it for closure even if it means you might leave her after finding out all the dirty details. And that's why she won't tell you, because she knows you might leave. It's still about her and saving her @ss.

So, what are you going to do about it?
 
#153 ·
If she can't help with these problems, I agree on a divorce.

Her secrets are more important than your marriage.

Starting filing, she may wake up, but I doubt it. She does not respect you, this is not a life.

I would file and tell her that her OM and her secrets are still more important to her than you are. And she will not help, so it is time to end it.
 
#154 ·
Don't give up, friend. It may seem bleak right now, but it can be overcome.

Have you considered getting a gym membership and hitting the weights? This can really help with your self confidence. When other women start checking you out (and they will if you get ripped), your wife may change her tune.

Please, keep fighting for your marriage.
 
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#169 ·
One I guess this is the Mrs J Adams that was referred to before.

You were better to be honest then lie. The thing is a WW is to let the BH control the level of details the BH gets by the questions he asks.

Example if a BH asks WW did you have sex with the OM.

Best WW answer is: yes.

The WW did not trickle truth. She did not lie by omission.

Worst answer is: yes, we had sex over 100 times, it was the best sex I ever had, OM was huge, he would do at least 4 times every night we spent together.

WW did not trickle truth though she did not let the BH control the amount of information that he heard.

Once a BH hears an answer he can never unhear it. In this example the WW may of told the BH things he can never handle.

The BH did not ask how many times, size, performance, was the OM better.

Whether intentional or not in this example the WW rubbed the affair in her BH's face, ears, and the back of his neck.
 
#155 ·
Per Mrs. Adams, she indeed answered every question I asked and often elaborated well beyond my original question. I have a vivid imagination and I found the answers were worse than I ever imagined. Are you ready for that possibility? Do you really want to know every sex position? Although honesty is the best policy, honesty can do you in. Do you want to live with all the mind movies the rest of your life? Do you really want to know if his is bigger than yours? (Actually one of the few areas I won in...lol). Per Jack Nicholson can you handle the truth?
 
#159 ·
She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.

I do not think that many married women have a real ONS. There was an emotional attachment prior to the sex. There may have been a one time only sexual encounter but not really a ONS.
 
#175 ·
"By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades."

Not if she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with the consequences of what she did.

But it is true that long ago he should have simply filed and dumped her after he realized she was NEVER going to give him true remorse for her actions or the details and help he needed to heal.
 
#176 ·
Hurtin Still,

Your tormented marriage has gone on long enough. Time to make it happy. Time to get rid of the anger. Time to become an equal in your marriage.

Throughout your thread you have drawn lines in the sand that you will not cross, and yet they are key to making you and your wife happy again.

1) You refuse to consider divorce. As long as your wife knows you do not have the courage to live without her, she has no need to change anything.

2) You refuse to DNA test your daughter. Ostensibly, doing this test in secret would hurt her. This is illogical. First, she need not know about the result. If she is your daughter, you may discover your anger about the affair the desire for details, simply vanishes. You will have gained knowledge about the affair and taken some measure of control back.

There is also a chance that your daughter is not your biological child. Knowing this guarantees that your wife will change her tune.

The DNA test is only a win-win situation for you. Why don't you see it? Could it be that you wish to cling to the anger. You are used to it it is your way or life. But it has ruined the past 18 years.

The testing of DNA testing and the consideration of divorce would break the deadlock.

re: your sexless marriage
You have been having sex so irregularly that it has further destroyed the bond between you and your wife. But instead of having sex 6 times a year, you need to fix your relationship.

re: Nice guy
You are a nice guy but then you resent having been nice and getting mistreated in return. You resent. Stop being nice and your resentment will disappear.

re: Lack of confidence
You make many assertions about being unattractive. This is more unattractive than being ugly because for women self confidence and humor are often more important that money or organ size. Ed Powers (born Mark Arnold Krinsky) became a famous porn actor producer. His equipment was small and he had a round out of shape gut, but he could get amateur women to go crazy with him.

Attitude is essential. The day you feel better about yourself, your wife will be attracted to you, or at least she will do a double take.

One key point: you describe how you are attracted to your wife. That is great. Imagine how terrible it feels for a guy who does not like eating breakfast with his wife or seeing her pull up her stockings. If your wife does not give this beauty to you, well, you don't have it and you are not enjoying it. So, you have to win it.

The other alternative is to divorce and find someone new. Do you dare?

Either you want to fix things or you don't.
 
#180 ·
Sidney,

I think being angry and somewhat distant/detached from someone who has severely injured you is a far cry from 'brutalize'.

It is a huge exaggeration.

But I do agree that he should have left her unrepentant a** soon after the A since she was still wanting to protect POSOM and herself.

And I don't think simply being a human being entitles you to sympathy, understanding, and care when that same person is continuing to act like a cruel, unremorseful, narcissist who only cares about their own feelings and desires and doesn't give 2 s***s about the person she is supposed to be closest to in the world.

Continue to view her as a hapless and innocent victim if you want, but she is anything but that.

She could end this entire situation/problem at any time by simply confessing the truth to her BH instead of calling him 'sick' and saying he needs help because he is finally demanding the truth and refusing to continue rugsweeping her bulls**t.
 
#183 · (Edited)
Granny,

I'm not jumping on him at all.

I don't think less of him as a person because he stayed and tried to work with a cruel woman that he still happened to love.

I am just stating that my opinion is that he would be in a much better place today if he had made a strong move to enforce respect for himself at the time.

She might have stayed unrepentant and they would be D right now but he would have freed himself to move on in life.

It might have scared her into finally giving up her selfish bs and allowed them to move towards healing and closure.

My point being that he has allowed this situation to go on for 18 years because ONLY a strong demand for truth and respect or else a D will break this impasse.

She is not going to do it otherwise because she knows he will not leave and give her a real consequence...or at least she has learned that expectation over the last 18 years.

He has to break their cycle if he wants a different result here.

Continuing this pattern will only result in more of the same.
 
#184 ·
Granny,

I'm not jumping on him at all.

I don't think less of him as a person because he stayed and tried to work with a cruel woman that he still happened to love.

I am just stating my opinion that my opinion is that he would be in a much better place today if he had made a strong move to enforce respect for himself at the time.

She might have stayed unrepentant and they would be D right now but he would have freed himself to move on in life.

It might have scared her into finally giving up her selfish bs and allowed them to move towards healing and closure.

My point being that he has allowed this situation to go on for 18 years because ONLY a strong demand for truth and respect or else a D will break this impasse.

She is not going to do it otherwise because she knows he will not leave and give her a real consequence...or at least she has learned that expectation over the last 18 years.

He has to break their cycle if he wants a different result here.

Continuing this pattern will only result in more of the same.
:iagree:
Dog chasing his tail.
Well I think we are whipping the dead horse here.
Sad really.
 
#186 ·
Granny,

I am very sorry to hear about what happened to you.

Believe me when I say I don't judge or look down on any BS like yourself that struggles with what to do after discovering such a betrayal by the person they loved the most.

I do not think any less of them for trying to save their M's either.

I only offer my view on how to regain or protect the self-esteem and dignity I think is vital to all of us....and I know I can be direct and blunt at times (though I hope never attacking...I never call them disparaging terms or put them down).

No one who has been a decent and honest person should ever tolerate cruel and selfish people treating them with such hurt and contempt.

And it is their right to have ALL of those who have wronged them answer for the injuries they have done in whatever manner they deem most appropriate for each: divorce. exposure, whatever....personally I don't even oppose RA's if the BS believes they must get payback, though I know many disagree on that.

This is why I find Hurtin's WW to be so disgusting in her choices. Her refusal to divulge denies him the remorse for her actions he deserves from her as well as the opportunity for justice from the POS who helped injure him and his family.
 
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