Loss of a child - long story - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
Dealing with Grief and Loss The grieving process is difficult. When we lose someone close to us, we go through many different emotions.

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post #46 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 01:52 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?
it's f-d up, there is no question.

I think you should tell her 1 time in a calm way that you can't understand why she would deny this when it is very clear what happened.

Let her know that you're disappointed by this and that may do further damage to your relationship.

You could say that you are pleased at the direction things have been headed and you would hope that she would be interested in fostering greater trust.

At that point she can decide if she wants to take a different approach or not.

And you can decide what you need to do if she doesn't.

As you are deciding, you might consider that she might not want to revisit that time in her head and that she is trying to move on and save face in some fashion.

You don't have to go along with that, obviously.

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post #47 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 02:50 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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Absolutely agree. We had some counselling of the style above, but my wife is a very good talker and can talk herself out of opening up easily. We need someone like Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting, who will dig into the uncomfortable areas. The fact she says she doesn't remember is what kills me.
It's called selective amnesia. It's a subconscious burying of details to protect the conscious mind and preserve the being.

You see it happen in these situations quite often. The pain is too great for the person to consciously deal with that the subconscious mind buries it and causes the person the inability to remember it. It's a self preservation coping mechanism that required intensive therapy to both reverse and deal with head on.

You also see this coping mechanism in sexual assault survivors. Child abuse survivors, anything violently and emotionally traumatic.

Grief is a very strange creature. It drives some of the best and some of the worse behaviors in people.

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post #48 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 02:54 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

Even if she can't remember, she still did it. I am not saying anyone knows what is going through her head and how hard this must be. Just, it happened and she did it.
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post #49 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone, I will respond tomorrow. Some good points here.
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post #50 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 03:08 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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Even if she can't remember, she still did it. I am not saying anyone knows what is going through her head and how hard this must be. Just, it happened and she did it.
I didn't say she didn't. I'm also not condoning what she did (in fact as a BS, there is no excuse ever for that kind of betrayal and behavior...ever).

I'm just saying she may be experiencing selective amnesia due to the grief of losing a child. She may actually be telling the truth when she says I don't remember...but now it's on her to seek the therapy to work through it and own her actions whether she remembers or not.

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post #51 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 03:14 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

Good,
You cannot coerce transparency. And as the primary breadwinner it is HIGHLY coercive to say: XYZ is putting the marriage in jeopardy.

Been there - done that - in my experience it was an epic fail.

Let's skip all the fluff and hit the punch line. G2 said: I HATE having sex with Goodguy. That is the real issue. And given her behavior - a seemingly true statement.

If it was me - I'd address THAT in a direct and low key manner.

GG: It's obvious you dislike having sex with me. What can I do to make it better for you?

Be forewarned - it might be physical stuff that you cannot change.



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I hoped by being brutally honest of my own free will about things she would have had no chance of finding out otherwise would have made her reciprocate. A covert contract I guess.

I can absolutely assure her that. In fact I've told her that it is the whole "I can't remember" thing that is putting our marriage in jeopardy.
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post #52 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 03:52 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?
Does your wife know that you read her diary?

The problem with diaries is that sometimes they are about a person writing about a fantasy world... a place where she escaped... perhaps a place were your son was not part of it so she could avoid the pain that way.

And that's the problem with reading diaries, you don't know if what you read is just fantasy or not.
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post #53 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 11:21 PM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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Been there jld - it is the worst possible experience imaginable. I would have gladly taken a bullet to the head if it could have saved my son's life - and still would.

I haven't read the book, I avoid any books / films about dying or sick children.
I am so sorry for the loss of your child. My heart is hurting for you.

I had often wondered if I really loved my wife and children. Would I give up my life to save theirs?

The night of my son's cancer diagnosis, as I laid down by his hospital bed, I got the answer. But I also felt powerless. I would take the bullet for him, but it was already too late. The bullet had reached him.

After a few days, I started to see how strong my son was and how weak I was. In those situations we all try to survive, and the adults are often (maybe always) the weakest ones. Our extended family sent a bunch of get well cards, all more depressing than the other. We never showed them to our son. Every one was scared.

Good Guy, like you, your wife was scared to lose her child. Now she is scared to lose her marriage. It is not healthy.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to get her out of that mode because she cannot do it herself. Your resentment is not helping.

How are your kids coping with it? Are they also scared their parents will get divorced?

Fear of death is OK. Fear of what your spouse is going to do is not.

It is not fair your wife is not able to help you. But that is how it is. You need to remove fear from the equation and right now you are the only one capable of doing it.

Love your wife, listen to her, do not judge her.

The teacher was a good man not to take advantage of her.

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post #54 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 05:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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Oh my god. Oh my god, no kidding. I would take his cancer any day, die right now if I could spare him of that. So would my husband.

Oh, God, why could it not have been me?



Sweetheart, it is not that. It is about sharing our honest feelings with our spouses. It is about being completely vulnerable with them. Opening our hearts, letting them see our wounds. And seeing theirs in return.

Totally agree on not reading about our situations. I cannot bear it, either. I almost could not read your post this morning after I saw the word "cancer" and "teenager" in it.

And even then, I had to go find my son and tell him how much I loved him, and ask him if he is happy with his life. I don't know how much longer we will have him, you know? What if his cancer is back tomorrow? Life is so fragile.

My husband called a little bit ago and I told him about your thread. He will read it tonight. He said you cannot expect your wife to carry you. He said she is carrying her own load, and you need to help her.

It is so hard for a mother, GG. I carried my son in my womb, nursed him over 3 years. His death would devastate Dug, no doubt. But I am his mother. You just cannot compare the impact, and what it can do to a woman.
Everrything you say above I agree with.

I agree with your husband too - I wasn't expecting her to carry me at all, and I tried to help her in any way I could. In the circumstances I think I did pretty OK. I remember the first week after diagnosis we had a room near the hospital, and I just wanted to sit in a corner and cry.

She had a whole network of female friends to call on too for emotional support, and I had literally no one. My family don't live nearby, nor do any of my close friends. I am not whining or complaining about this, or looking for sympathy, it is just how it was. That's why recently I am actively cultivating a social life outside my home - I need to get out more, literally.

It's not a normal situation. I tried so hard to get through to her in those times, and it obviously wasn't good enough, but it was the best I could do. Probably she saw me as some cold unfeeling ******* when nothing could be further from the truth.
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post #55 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 05:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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It's called selective amnesia. It's a subconscious burying of details to protect the conscious mind and preserve the being.

You see it happen in these situations quite often. The pain is too great for the person to consciously deal with that the subconscious mind buries it and causes the person the inability to remember it. It's a self preservation coping mechanism that required intensive therapy to both reverse and deal with head on.

You also see this coping mechanism in sexual assault survivors. Child abuse survivors, anything violently and emotionally traumatic.

Grief is a very strange creature. It drives some of the best and some of the worse behaviors in people.

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She definitely doesn't want to go back there - that's something she's said several times. She said it was a deep dark place, and she doesn't want to revisit it. She also had a collection of pictures of the guy she found online - she does remember collecting them and being worried about why she was doing it. She freely admits to that. So there may be something in what you are saying.

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post #56 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 05:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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I am so sorry for the loss of your child. My heart is hurting for you.

I had often wondered if I really loved my wife and children. Would I give up my life to save theirs?
I hear you

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The night of my son's cancer diagnosis, as I laid down by his hospital bed, I got the answer. But I also felt powerless. I would take the bullet for him, but it was already too late. The bullet had reached him.

After a few days, I started to see how strong my son was and how weak I was. In those situations we all try to survive, and the adults are often (maybe always) the weakest ones. Our extended family sent a bunch of get well cards, all more depressing than the other. We never showed them to our son. Every one was scared.
We had relatives who wanted to start a prayer vigil around his bed. Naturally I shot that one down.

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Good Guy, like you, your wife was scared to lose her child. Now she is scared to lose her marriage. It is not healthy.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to get her out of that mode because she cannot do it herself. Your resentment is not helping.
I agree - I see that now.

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How are your kids coping with it? Are they also scared their parents will get divorced?
Yes they are. Actually my eldest is of the opinion it might be for the best.

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Fear of death is OK. Fear of what your spouse is going to do is not.

It is not fair your wife is not able to help you. But that is how it is. You need to remove fear from the equation and right now you are the only one capable of doing it.

Love your wife, listen to her, do not judge her.
It's not that I am judging her, it's whether I can believe her or not. It's very frustrating. I need to be able to trust her. I wish I could believe she can't remember writing that stuff, or at least some of it - literally several entries per day in some cases. Or even admitting she is capable of writing that stuff. I would not judge her for it - i've told her that several times. Hell, I've been angry at her often enough in my head, and thought bad thoughts about her at times, who doesn't with a spouse? Also I think it's normal to be attracted to other people from time to time. At the end of the day she didn't physically cheat, as she would have written about that too. It was how she pretended to be one way with me, and was someone else completely in private.

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The teacher was a good man not to take advantage of her.
I agree 100%. He is blameless in this situation, and acted appropriately at all times. He's a great guy, as I said he went above and beyond with our son.
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post #57 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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Does your wife know that you read her diary?

The problem with diaries is that sometimes they are about a person writing about a fantasy world... a place where she escaped... perhaps a place were your son was not part of it so she could avoid the pain that way.

And that's the problem with reading diaries, you don't know if what you read is just fantasy or not.
She knows - was not happy about it but I have no regrets. It was the letter I found first - it was literally just lying there when I opened her wardrobe with his name on the front. I would have stumbled across it by accident anyway. That's why I kept digging.

She says that too - that it was a way of escaping for her - and always was. There were almost no life events in there, and even those that were there, for example one of our children got assaulted one evening by a strung out drug addict, and the guy that was with her was lucky to escape alive, and she mentioned that briefly, but only in the context of if the teacher knew and if so why did he not contact her about it. I mean this is clearly not normal behavior - your child is attacked and your first concern is about some guy ?
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post #58 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

I had a chat via text message with my wife. I asked her again about the diary. I'll put the conversation here. I do believe her now. She did admit she was attracted to him, so I am going to leave it there and get on with my life.

Thanks everyone for all the kind words and advice. The bolded text is her.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love you so much and want to tell you I don't blame you for what happened. I believe you were using the diary as a form of escapism from the reality of our situation.

I was unable to give you the emotional support you needed and you were unable to see that I did actually care, because I had to protect myself by not getting emotional to allow me to function at all.

I don't know if I believe that you can't remember writing at least some of the stuff - it is so highly charged and deeply felt I find that very difficult to believe. I don't hold you responsible for writing it, it's just I have a very hard time believing it. At the very least, you must remember thinking some of those things at the time.

It doesn't bother me anymore if you thought those things. It did before, but now I see that you do still love me, or maybe love me again, I don't know which. I had thoughts too I wasn't "supposed" to have. The only thing that bothers me is that I don't know if you are honest about the whole diary thing.

I love you so much too. I don't blame you at all for not being there. I was not there either. We both tried to cope and did our best. To me that is the main thing. Thank you for saying what you said

I never stopped loving you. Except that at some stage I didn't love anyone or anything, not even myself. That was a dark time.

I am being truthful about the diary. When I read it back, it was not at all familiar. I do how ever remember some of the sentiments. I remember feeling angry with you and I do have a vague recollection of making up stories in my head. Not very well defined, but the general feel of it. Lots of gaps in between. The main thing I remember is the pain and the despair. I do honestly not remember much of anything I wrote. The earlier stuff yes.


The earlier stuff was all about how sad she was about our son.

I have no reason at all to not be honest. I love you so much. We are good together

I am happy to read what your wrote but also a bit worried.


Well let me ask you this then - are you saying you had no feelings of attraction at all for (the teacher) ?


I think at some stage I probably did. He represented all kind of things I wanted, but most of all it was the connection with (our son). But yes I do think he's a good looking man. I did think he was attractive but I never wanted anything from him.

I only ever think of him when you bring him up. He is never in my thoughts


ok I will have to settle for that answer.

What ever it was, it died with me feeling better. That is the truth

I believe you. Thank you for being honest.

We have been to hell and back. We only have each other
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post #59 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 07:06 AM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

GG, I just read your update when I previewed my post. I am happy to hear you feel you have gotten what you need from your wife. I hope this is the beginning of healing in your relationship.

I am still going to post what I took the time to write here. I hope it can be of help somehow.

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I hear you
Thanks for saying that, GG. I was pretty surprised to read Dug's post last night. I have always seen him as rock solid. His post last night made him seem much more . . . human than I am used to.

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We had relatives who wanted to start a prayer vigil around his bed. Naturally I shot that one down.
Oh my god. Aren't religious people the worst?!

Like you needed all that fear on top of what you already had inside yourself.

GG, I cannot tell you how bad I feel for you and your wife. It brings back so many memories for Dug and me, memories we wish we did not have, memories we wish we could forget.

We were in India when our son was diagnosed. Thank God we did not have relatives swarming around. Two of my sisters wanted to come. We shot that down. The last thing I needed was anybody telling me what to do all the time.

Our support group was Dug, our daughter (then 14), and me.

Ds was 10 when he was diagnosed, and our other boys were 7, 4, and 10 mos. Dug was running a factory in India. He had just started it the year before. The company nearly closed it during the financial crisis a few months before. He had to fight to keep it open.

So we had a baby, a move for the family shortly thereafter to India, and then our son's cancer to deal with, along with the financial crisis and unexpectedly having our house in America remodeled (we had found mold in the kitchen before the kids and I had left to join Dug in India, where he had been for the previous year). Very challenging year. Still amazed we got through it as well as we did.

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I agree - I see that now.

Yes they are. Actually my eldest is of the opinion it might be for the best.
And your youngest?

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It's not that I am judging her, it's whether I can believe her or not. It's very frustrating. I need to be able to trust her. I wish I could believe she can't remember writing that stuff, or at least some of it - literally several entries per day in some cases. Or even admitting she is capable of writing that stuff. I would not judge her for it - i've told her that several times. Hell, I've been angry at her often enough in my head, and thought bad thoughts about her at times, who doesn't with a spouse? Also I think it's normal to be attracted to other people from time to time. At the end of the day she didn't physically cheat, as she would have written about that too. It was how she pretended to be one way with me, and was someone else completely in private.
Have you been in counseling together for this? For an extended period of time?

Look, I hear you on her lying. It seems you two had problems before the diagnosis of your son. His illness and death just further exposed the weaknesses in your marriage. And now, 6 years on, you have about had it.

I could not be with a liar, either. You are absolutely right that you cannot trust someone who cannot admit when they are lying. Pride or toxic shame or whatever, at some point they have to admit what is true or what basis do you have for trust? And how can you heal and move forward without trust?

I bet she feels so much shame for what she did. She probably feels shame for every time she is wrong about something. Feels if she admits it, she is worthless somehow. Maybe her family shamed her a lot when she was growing up?

And you are really hurt by what she did. And she feels that. I bet she feels shame for that, too.

I think the only way she could heal with you is if she felt you loved her unconditionally. Maybe then somehow she could get the courage up to face the truth, and admit it.

You said she prides herself on not lying. But like you said, we all lie in some ways. Not telling the whole truth is a form of lying.

She is fragile. If you do not love her, truly love her "as is," it might be for the best to divorce her. It could shake her up enough to finally face the truth. She would be alone, just her and the truth facing her. That might crack through the wall of protection she has built around herself.

Gosh, that would have to be hard for you, though, knowing you are leaving her so vulnerable like that. And it would affect your kids, too: If Dad would abandon Mom, would he abandon us, too?

Quote:
I agree 100%. He is blameless in this situation, and acted appropriately at all times. He's a great guy, as I said he went above and beyond with our son.
Fine man. Probably should not have let her get so close to start with, though. She was very vulnerable, and it was probably plain to see.

I just feel so bad for both of you. I can see where you are coming from. And I can feel her pain.

GG, I don't know if it helps to hear this, but I had very impure thoughts about my son's oncologist. Used to fantasize about him regularly the first two years after the diagnosis. Looked forward to seeing him during the visits. Just being in his presence was so calming, such a distraction from the emotional chaos I felt everywhere else.

I felt ashamed of it, let me tell you. I still do.

Difference is, I told Dug about it. Whenever I feel attracted to another man, I tell Dug. He does not feel threatened by it. Our bond is strong. And I can't stand the thought of his not knowing everything I am thinking. It just feels much safer to me that my mind be an open book to my husband.

But GG, that is because I feel safe with him. He has shown me time and again that with him is where I am safest. There is no shaming me when I tell him my darkest thoughts. There is love and forgiveness and, honestly, laughter. To him, I just torture myself with wanting to be morally perfect. He does not expect it of me.

If you cannot provide this safety to your wife, if your love for her essence is not stronger than your need for her to be truthful, then let her go. And explain why, to both her and your kids. If she cannot be honest and open, you be, to both her and the kids.

I am really, really sorry you have found yourself in this situation. I am sorry beyond words that you lost your son. And I am sorry that your wife may lose another piece of her family. What a painful situation all the way around.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #60 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 07:10 AM
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Re: Loss of a child - long story

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She knows - was not happy about it but I have no regrets. It was the letter I found first - it was literally just lying there when I opened her wardrobe with his name on the front. I would have stumbled across it by accident anyway. That's why I kept digging.

She says that too - that it was a way of escaping for her - and always was. There were almost no life events in there, and even those that were there, for example one of our children got assaulted one evening by a strung out drug addict, and the guy that was with her was lucky to escape alive, and she mentioned that briefly, but only in the context of if the teacher knew and if so why did he not contact her about it. I mean this is clearly not normal behavior - your child is attacked and your first concern is about some guy ?
GG, it may be hard to hear, but I would like to say it anyway. You were not meeting her emotional needs at the time. And no wonder! You were trying to meet your own.

But because you were not, and she could not meet them herself, she turned to him. He became her primary emotional attachment. And that fed her during a time when neither of you could do it.

It is over now. She has reattached to you. Build on that. Learn from it. Both of you.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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