The Family & Parenting ForumsFamily dynamics can be exactly that - dynamic! Post here about family related issues such as parenting, blended families, step-families, new relationships with children involved, family of origin issues, in-laws or sibling issues.
This made me so sad. I don't think I've read anything so sad in a long time. I hope you do get some pleasure out of your marriage beyond people who aren't even part of it.
I'm not explaining myself properly. I'm not saying I don't get pleasure from my wife. I certainly do. I'm saying we could get the same pleasure from each other without being married, could'nt we? If it were just about us loving each other and making each other happy, why do we need a piece of paper for that?
There is a difference between a loving committed relationship, and a marriage. You can be married without having kids, but what for other than selfish reasons? Financial security, convenience, legal protection. If you get married for selfish reasons, then the marriage is doomed from the start. Marriage is about self-sacrifice. Sacrificing your options to be with other people. Sacrificing your freedom to leave when you want. Kids need that sacrifice.
I understand what you're saying, but I think there is another reason to get married that isn't about financial security and convenience (or having children). I think being married is a very strong emotional commitment and "way of life" if I can use that term that - if you see it that way - isn't the same as being in a committed relationship. I do see your point but I've often found myself trying to explain to people who say "why get married if you're not going to have kids?" Trying to explain the emotional "meaning" of marriage to someone who doesn't perceive of marriage as a special 'way of life' in its own right is not easy. Interestingly, I don't feel that I've made either sacrifices OR compromises by getting married (and I don't consider it "work" either).
It's very hard to explain. But I think it goes to show that marriage (beyond the actual legalities) "means" different things to different people. To me marriage is more of an act of love than anything else.
I understand what you're saying, but I think there is another reason to get married that isn't about financial security and convenience (or having children). I think being married is a very strong emotional commitment and "way of life" if I can use that term that - if you see it that way - isn't the same as being in a committed relationship. I do see your point but I've often found myself trying to explain to people who say "why get married if you're not going to have kids?" Trying to explain the emotional "meaning" of marriage to someone who doesn't perceive of marriage as a special 'way of life' in its own right is not easy. Interestingly, I don't feel that I've made either sacrifices OR compromises by getting married (and I don't consider it "work" either).
It's very hard to explain. But I think it goes to show that marriage (beyond the actual legalities) "means" different things to different people. To me marriage is more of an act of love than anything else.
Good points. I would question your statement that you haven't made sacrifices. Then you say marriage is an act of love. An act of love IS A SACRIFICE by definition.
We agree on it being an act of love. I'd like to better understand what this other reason is to get married.
"Emotional commitment" is a contradiction in my view. Emotions are involuntary. We don't directly control them. So how can we commit to them?
"Special way of life" is a little vague as well.
Believe me, Im' not trying to argue with you, just want to understand you better.
Good points. I would question your statement that you haven't made sacrifices. Then you say marriage is an act of love. An act of love IS A SACRIFICE by definition.
We agree on it being an act of love. I'd like to better understand what this other reason is to get married.
"Emotional commitment" is a contradiction in my view. Emotions are involuntary. We don't directly control them. So how can we commit to them?
"Special way of life" is a little vague as well.
Believe me, Im' not trying to argue with you, just want to understand you better.
You aren't the first, I have a terrible time trying to explain it. People want to know why I am married. I don't want children, and the country where we live actually PENALIZES us for being married in our taxes, and there are no legal benefits. Nothing about the way we live would be impossible if we weren't married. Many people think it's strange that we got married. I can't really explain it well, except to say that it IS emotionally/feelings based. It's a way of experiencing / living the fact that we're in love. When my now-husband and I were first discussing the concept of marriage, I told him that as far as I was concerned, having children and being married had absolutely nothing to do with each other. I still believe that. It's not about the legal "advantages" either. And you say it's a sacrifice but I insist that it isn't. I only benefited (emotionally) by getting married, I didn't lose anything by it. That's why I say it isn't a sacrifice. Isn't a sacrifice when you do something even though it hurts you in some way, for a greater good? Well in this case, there is no downside, so I feel that it can't be called a sacrifice, and there are many acts of love that wouldn't fit that category either. But maybe you define 'sacrifice' differently - that's fine, I'm just talking about it from my own understanding.
Omega, thanks for explaining it to me. I do understand. Your marriage makes you very happy and you have not had to sacrifice anything. There is no downside. And despite the wedding costs, tax penalty, etc, the emotional payoff you receive is well worth it. I really appreciate you sharing this with me.
Just one more question would help me a lot if you don't mind. A what-if scenario so to speak...
What will you do if the positivity, lovliness and special emotion turns into pain, negativity, and major unhappiness... and your marriage BECOMES the sacrifice that it has never been yet? What if all the upsides turn upside down? Year after year. Will you get divorced?
Omega, thanks for explaining it to me. I do understand. Your marriage makes you very happy and you have not had to sacrifice anything. There is no downside. And despite the wedding costs, tax penalty, etc, the emotional payoff you receive is well worth it. I really appreciate you sharing this with me.
Just one more question would help me a lot if you don't mind. A what-if scenario so to speak...
What will you do if the positivity, lovliness and special emotion turns into pain, negativity, and major unhappiness... and your marriage BECOMES the sacrifice that it has never been yet? What if all the upsides turn upside down? Year after year. Will you get divorced?
We didn't have wedding expenses as we didn't have a wedding ... we eloped But the tax penalty is obnoxious!!
First, one of the main reasons I am on TAM in the first place is to stay aware and alert so that your scenario is less likely to happen - I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - so I am really big into armor-plating my marriage. Second, I would try MC although I know it's certainly not infallible. But ultimately if things were miserable for years... I would consider divorce I guess. I have always believed in my heart that the only reason I would divorce my husband would be if he cheated on me, and I do believe that I would if that happened, but I like to imagine that I wouldn't under other circumstances. No one can predict the future. When I joined TAM I liked to think of myself as one of those people who don't "believe in" divorce. After reading a whole bunch of awful stories on here, I find myself posting "why don't you just divorce the miserable ***" more and more. So I don't want to say I would never do it, but I entered into marriage and continue with the conviction that I would only divorce over infidelity.
I used to think of my wife as the main reward for getting married. But I was constantly disappointed in her. She never quite lived up to my unrealistic expectations. Nor did I live up to hers.
I now believe that our spouse isn't meant to make us happy. And the only reason to get married is so we can have children.
What about infertile couples? Should they all just divorce?
How about people who marry past childbearing age?
I think it is so funny, when people take their experiences as facts.
Guess what? Some couples actually marry and stay together because *gasp* they cherish each other and want to share their lives. There are also couples that choose not to have children, but that probably doesn't exist in your small and ignorant world.
Wow, this thread sure took an unexpected turn! Great to hear all your insights. We have number 3 on the way in about a week, so I'm preparing myself for a couple of months of craziness!
__________________
Free 'Romance Starter Pack' of ebooks for people as clueless as me - available for free at: DoYouWoo.com - get them while they're hot
This thread reminds me that several years ago, when I was engaged, I posted as my FB status update: "How did having children change your marriage?" And I got about 10 comments to the status, all positive, and about 4-5 private emails, all negative.
It's very taboo to admit that having children might have been a mistake or that someone as innocent as a baby can be "responsible" for damaging a marriage. And yet people who have been through it are willing to "warn" others, just not "publicly." (My experience.)
This thread reminds me that several years ago, when I was engaged, I posted as my FB status update: "How did having children change your marriage?" And I got about 10 comments to the status, all positive, and about 4-5 private emails, all negative.
It's very taboo to admit that having children might have been a mistake or that someone as innocent as a baby can be "responsible" for damaging a marriage. And yet people who have been through it are willing to "warn" others, just not "publicly." (My experience.)
Mine too!
This is why I am glad that my mother finally admitted that she wished she never had such a big family. I was touched my her honesty, because I always felt her resentment growing up.
Wow, that is quite a series of confessions! Thanks for posting that. I am actually glad to read it. It always bothered me that people repressed their feelings on this issue so unanimously. People are usually more willing to admit to homocidal fantasies than to wishing they'd never had children.
Wow, that is quite a series of confessions! Thanks for posting that. I am actually glad to read it. It always bothered me that people repressed their feelings on this issue so unanimously. People are usually more willing to admit to homocidal fantasies than to wishing they'd never had children.
It is interesting. Most parents are willing to share with their friends (who are parents) the moments that they wished they did not have children, but don't like to admit it to non-parents. I suspect a lot of parents feel (rightly or wrongly) that others can't understand if they have not gone through it. I have those moments and readily admit it.
I will say I am more vocal and disappointed at how I did not properly balance my marriage with parenthood. We are much better now, but it took me far too long to "fix" that problem.
Like any life changing decision, becoming a parent can be both the best and the worst choice. I assume that the tradeoff is the joy and pride of having a child, instead of more freedom and time to be a spouse.
The delight that my nieces give me, is like an unbearable surge of love in my heart. As an aunt, I enjoy all the wonderful things about children without being responsible for them forever.
Like any life changing decision, becoming a parent can be both the best and the worst choice. I assume that the tradeoff is the joy and pride of having a child, instead of more freedom and time to be a spouse.
[/url]
Its a trade off for a lot of things. Spouse is one, as are hobbies and other activities. You have to prioritize. Before kids, it was easy to focus on my spouse because once work was done, I had control over my time - most all of my activities were a choice. Once the kids came a long, I lost control of much of my time - kids, especially as babies, need care on their time table, not mine. So now, my spouse is competing for that remaining free time which is a lot less.
Now that we have a better handle on it (and the kids are getting older), the joy of having them outweighs the time and freedom of being both a spouse and an individual. But I recognize that does not work for everyone (and can name at least one where they should not have made that tradeoff).
Ideally, we should have sat down and figured out some ways to work together to put us at least at the same level of the kids. That issue came up occasionally, but it was more words than action. Perhaps it was just that the kids were young, but I really feel I messed that up by not being more diligent in following through. Unfortunately, my flux-capacitor is in the shop, so I am stuck with the world as it currently is.
12Likes
Re: Did kids make your marriage better or worse? 
But the tax penalty is obnoxious!!
