[Bellavista]

I do wonder at times if this daughter think that items cease to exist if they are in drawers or cupboards. She likes to have everything where she can see it. Some of the issue has been solved by getting her a set of bookshelves that she can stack things on, but her method of cleaning her room is still to pick everything off the floor & out it on the desk or dresser. My MIL is the same, her kitchen bench is covered in things.
Thankfully there is no issue with food or dishes in the rooms, if the kids really feel the need to eat in their rooms, they do bring the plates back out to the kitchen straight away, as well, each of them has to empty their bins once a week at a minimum.
the 2 things I have always been big on with my kids is consequences, either good or bad & developing independance. I am raising them to be fully functional adults.

[FirstYearDown]

Originally Posted by Gaia

lmao there are men out there that clean and make great husbands too. Being a neat freak isn't just a woman thing... your daughter and son are proving that when compared eh? lol

My husband is very neat. Neatest man I have ever been with.

[Hope1964]

Originally Posted by costa200

I totally get that. The thing is, what if they decide that happiness is being a medical doctor and their grades aren't high enough to get in? Do you see where i'm coming from? A kid with good school results can chose to become a street bum if he wants to. A kid with not so good grades can't become a doctor just because he decides to because it will be next to impossible.

I guess that I figure if someone who failed at school wants to become a doctor, there's no reason they couldn't. It would just take a lot more time and effort for them than for a kid who got good grades. I would far rather have a doctor who had to really earn their MD than one who was conditioned to get good grades from the time they were 4. IMO good grades do not = being a good doctor.

Originally Posted by costa200

Have you read on the Montessori education method? It's very similar to what you did with your daughter. The results are mixed. Some kids excel at that environment but others are utter failures. It seems that the results are more extreme. Great students came out of it but also total zeros.

It's one of my favorite case studies. It shows something i've known since my school days. For a good student there is no need for formal classes. But many students would amount to nothing after years in that situation.

Lucky for you your daughter started studying. What would you have done if she hadn't?

I've heard bits and pieces about Montessori but am not really familiar with the method.

I really think that many students have just given up and that, if they were allowed to pursue their own education from an early age, they'd be far better at it than they are after attending school. Formal schooling is a product of the industrial age born of the necessity of educating the masses, and I don't think that the focus is always on the best education for each child, but rather on pumpin' 'em out in a lot of cases. Some kids are lucky enough to get a certain teacher that they click with, or be the type of learner that learns despite the system, but I really think alternatives are better for a lot of kids.

If my daughter hadn't started learning? I really don't know what I'd have done. I never really considered that possibility. I kinda knew she WOULD I guess. I probably wouldn't have done anything though. I myself quit school in grade 11 and was out for 5 years to party and live it up, until at 21 I decided I wanted to get an education, and went back to high school as a mature adult, did correspondence, got my high school (won scholarships too) and then went on to get a BSc from university. 100% on my own. I could have been a doctor, too. So I would have probably figured that she would do something similar when she was ready.

I also don't think a lot of kids are ready for university at age 17-18 - I fully support those who want to take a break and not just plunge right into it after high school. Those 5 years were a huge part of making me who I am today.

[lamaga]

I do support a break before college for those students who need it and can afford it. The "gap year" is a great tradition that I wish would catch on here in the US, especially if it's spent in international travel or service activities and not just hanging out with your old high school buddies.

But I do have some quibbles with the rest of your post, Hope. If you don't have good grades in high school, you aren't going to get into a good college, and if you don't have good grades in college, you're not going to get into med school, period. It's not a matter of "working harder" -- you aren't going to get in, or you'll end up in one of those fly-by-night schools in Grenada.

It's completely appropriate to question the extent to which grades truly determine intelligence and talent, but it's also wise to remember that we live in the system in which we live.

[Hope1964]

Why can't you? The system has ways around it. The marks you had in high school aren't going to count much if you upgrade and get better ones, or if you're 45 and decide to do it, or if you transfer from another program. Maybe it's different here, I don't know, but most if not all university entrance requirements are a lot more flexible than people know.

[costa200]

really think that many students have just given up and that, if they were allowed to pursue their own education from an early age, they'd be far better at it than they are after attending school. Formal schooling is a product of the industrial age born of the necessity of educating the masses, and I don't think that the focus is always on the best education for each child, but rather on pumpin' 'em out in a lot of cases. Some kids are lucky enough to get a certain teacher that they click with, or be the type of learner that learns despite the system, but I really think alternatives are better for a lot of kids.

Totally agree.

If my daughter hadn't started learning? I really don't know what I'd have done. I never really considered that possibility. I kinda knew she WOULD I guess. I probably wouldn't have done anything though. I myself quit school in grade 11 and was out for 5 years to party and live it up, until at 21 I decided I wanted to get an education, and went back to high school as a mature adult, did correspondence, got my high school (won scholarships too) and then went on to get a BSc from university. 100% on my own. I could have been a doctor, too. So I would have probably figured that she would do something similar when she was ready.

Was a risky gamble there wasn't it. I've seen similar situations end up rather poorly. I remember a case of a kid that dropped out in the 9th grade and spent some 6 years doing absolutely nothing until his father had enough and gave him the squeeze.

I also don't think a lot of kids are ready for university at age 17-18 - I fully support those who want to take a break and not just plunge right into it after high school. Those 5 years were a huge part of making me who I am today.

Not everyone can afford that. I know i couldn't. In those 5 years my degree would be done and over.

I guess that I figure if someone who failed at school wants to become a doctor, there's no reason they couldn't. It would just take a lot more time and effort for them than for a kid who got good grades. I would far rather have a doctor who had to really earn their MD than one who was conditioned to get good grades from the time they were 4. IMO good grades do not = being a good doctor.

Take note that I did not say a kid with good grades should become an MD. What i said was that he can if he wants it.

Why can't you? The system has ways around it. The marks you had in high school aren't going to count much if you upgrade and get better ones, or if you're 45 and decide to do it, or if you transfer from another program. Maybe it's different here, I don't know, but most if not all university entrance requirements are a lot more flexible than people know.

That's a lot of wasted time. An MD needs about a decade of studying/training to fully reach the high point of his trade. If you add that to upgrading grades (re-doing it really) what do you get? A person that takes a huge amount of time before he/she gets where he/she wants to be. To the point that we are talking about middle age (40-50) by the time he/she is finally established.

All of that could be avoided with a little effort at the right time.

And i'm not even factoring in evident problems to get there (who is paying for all that, inability to get a real family of his/her own etc.).

And why? Because kids can be a little happier doing their own thing for a while? I think they can do whatever they want when they are making the money they want to make, on their own time.

I've heard bits and pieces about Montessori but am not really familiar with the method.

You really should, i think you would like it a lot.