Advice please - different views - Talk About Marriage
Financial Problems in Marriage When financial times are tough, it adds to the stress we deal with on a daily basis. This section is for talking about how financial problems affect our relationships and ways to cope.

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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Advice please - different views

I need some advice; I don't have much of a support base where we live (won't get into those details). Almost 2 years ago my Wife's father died. He and her mom were divorced so everything has fallen on the 4 kids to handle. They paid for the funeral and are now dealing with the estate.

At the time they all agreed that the oldest brother could have the house as he was the only one living in the area. One of the brothers lives 5 hours away, the one sister is 7 hours away, and we live 17 hours away. The oldest brother got into some money problems and was forced to move into the house before allowed by the court. The one trip we made up to begin going through and categorizing things turned into a "help him move out of his old house". Shortly after this he broke it off with his long term girl friend; met a new girl online from Idaho (she moved 20 hours to see him) - she got pregnant. A few months after this they moved out to Idaho and left the house vacant over the winter.

We went up to the house over memorial day (late may) and found the house filthy and in need of many repairs. The week was spent cleaning up her brother's messes and preforming repairs and maintenance on the house that sat empty all winter. All the siblings decided that it was not fair for the oldest to be titled on the house and be able to sell it under them or take out a mortgage on it to get out of his money problems (the house is fully paid for). I was against this and voiced my concerns for upkeep, it needs a new roof, new windows, ect just to keep it in good shape. As well as the need to carry insurance on it, and pay the monthly utilities just for service to be connected but not used.

As I sad this house is 17 hours away! So going to visit is not an easy task and usually requires a hotel stay on the way up and on the way home. It is not in a city or location that you would go to "vacation" either it is in the center of this small town with a 4 hour drive to any type of large city. Also any trip up there would not involve any relaxation - it would be nothing but working on the house because its not happening.

Recently the court has sent documents out to the siblings showing 25% share in the house; the oldest brother is now upset about this claiming that the others "stole his inheritance". what makes him feel he is entitled to an entire house! So this is causing a huge fight within their family and her mom is getting involved although it is not her place. The court has stated this has been drawn on too long and they need to close the estate; if agreements cannot be made they will sell the house.

With this proposed 25% share I'm sure it will come down to my wife and her sister to cover all costs as both brothers are not good with money. The one who moved to Idaho hasn't even had the money in a almost a year to go back for the rest of his things.

Now my point of all this background. Whenever I try to point out to my wife that we cannot take on this financial burden she gets extremely defensive always going to "you don't know what its like loosing your dad" or "its all about the money to you, lets see you sell your parents house when they die". Yes I don't know what its like but I also know its not about the money its about the responsibility and when my parents do pass if I am not living in the area or my brother/sister don't want the house I would have zero guilt or problem selling it. The memories are what is important to me not the physical house. anyone ever have to deal with a spouse in this type of situation? I am at a total loss and this I feel is driving us apart. I honestly do not know how she thinks we can afford to keep this house.

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:09 AM
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Re: Advice please - different views

Why is this so complicated? If everyone agreed to let the older brother have it, then it's his responsibility for it and everyone should be off the hook. Why are you guys involved now?
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Advice please - different views

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Why is this so complicated? If everyone agreed to let the older brother have it, then it's his responsibility for it and everyone should be off the hook. Why are you guys involved now?
they're all involved now because they don't trust the brother to turn around and sell it behind their backs or get deeper into money problems. and now the 3 kids want to keep it for a "vacation" house...not my idea of a vacation
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:18 AM
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Re: Advice please - different views

Refuse to travel back there to do anything with the house. And refuse to put any money into it for any reason. If your wife has her own money and wants to waste it, that's on her. It's an emotional decision for her, and not rational or reasonable. She may be upset with you for a while, but I think eventually she will realized that she can't handle the house issue alone - and if you don't help, this problem will play out and be over. Ideally, the court will force a sale, and that will be the end of it.

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Advice please - different views

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Refuse to travel back there to do anything with the house. And refuse to put any money into it for any reason. If your wife has her own money and wants to waste it, that's on her. It's an emotional decision for her, and not rational or reasonable. She may be upset with you for a while, but I think eventually she will realized that she can't handle the house issue alone - and if you don't help, this problem will play out and be over. Ideally, the court will force a sale, and that will be the end of it.
yes, she does have a job and brings in finances to run our home and lives here. Her pulling funds to sink into her dad's house will only hurt our budget here.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:35 AM
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Re: Advice please - different views

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they're all involved now because they don't trust the brother to turn around and sell it behind their backs or get deeper into money problems. and now the 3 kids want to keep it for a "vacation" house...not my idea of a vacation
Sounds like a money pit. The sooner you wash your hands of it the better. If the brother thinks he can sell it without major renovation then let him have it. Your wife is making an emotional decision she will regret later.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 11:42 AM
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Re: Advice please - different views

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yes, she does have a job and brings in finances to run our home and lives here. Her pulling funds to sink into her dad's house will only hurt our budget here.
She can use any excess income she brings in after all your other expenses are taken care of as usual. However, using joint savings/funds for her own purposes - while legal if the account is joint - is very disrespectful. If she proposes it, then withdraw half and set up your own account(s) so she can't use more than her fair share, and ask her to put it in writing (then if you divorce someday, hopefully your half of current savings will be excluded from an asset split).

Another strategy - if she wants to use your joint savings - is to take most of the liquid assets and pay down your own mortgage preemptively, leaving little or nothing for her to put at risk or outright waste. Yes, she'll be angry, but you'll be protecting both of you from a bad use of the money.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 12:06 PM
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Re: Advice please - different views

You need another family meeting or agreement. Any monies that go into the house should be documented and paid back after it is sold [divided up].

Problem: Any pay back will take years, since some of the others do not want to sell it....want it for a vacation property.

As others have said: do not put in any money that will not be acknowledged and paid back by the other "share" holders when and if it is sold. You need an attorney to draft up an agreement. All interested parties must sign off.

I wish you luck here. Sounds like you are trying to herd cats.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Advice please - different views

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You need another family meeting or agreement. Any monies that go into the house should be documented and paid back after it is sold [divided up].

Problem: Any pay back will take years, since some of the others do not want to sell it....want it for a vacation property.

As others have said: do not put in any money that will not be acknowledged and paid back by the other "share" holders when and if it is sold. You need an attorney to draft up an agreement. All interested parties must sign off.

I wish you luck here. Sounds like you are trying to herd cats.
Thank you, yes you hit the the nail on the head "herding cats"

I can only hope they realize selling is the best option but they don't see this purely acting on emotion and nostalgia.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 01:36 PM
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Re: Advice please - different views

Keeping a house with onone living in it is definitely not a good idea. If there are water or other utility problems with the house they would not be anyone one there to take care of if. Using it for a vacation house is also a bad idea. You should have a family meeting and sell it immediately or else the house will become a big expense for everyone involved. All expenses necessary to get the house ready to sell should be evenly divided and if they can't afford their share it should come out of their share of the profit.


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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 02:57 PM
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Re: Advice please - different views

TN129 who is the executor of the will for the family? it is that person job to carry out the wishes of the father regardless of who gets upset, and also there shoudl have been put aside to pay for upkeep of the house until it could be sold and the funds dispersed. i am running through this currently
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 05:43 PM
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Re: Advice please - different views

Rationally, I agree with you--the place sounds like a money pit. The four siblings would be better off selling it and splitting the money, but they have an emotional attachment to the place. Your wife has an emotional attachment to the place, and to make matters worse, she's dealing with siblings who are slackers and irresponsible, so it sounds like she has taken on more than her fair share of the work in settling the estate. And she has an older brother who is being an emotional bully, who is accusing her (and her other siblings) of stealing his inheritance.

They say that death can bring out the worst in people when they squabble over the scraps, and this seems to be proof of that. If you're lucky, the court will sell the property, and then you will no longer have to deal with this.

I don't have any good advice, I'm afraid. You're being rational about this; it sounds like she is being irrational, and that right now she is driven by grief and stress. Is there any way that you can help lessen the stress for her so she can start looking at things more rationally? Very few people hold on to their parents' home when the parents pass away--they pretty much always sell the family home. I'm not sure why your wife thinks she's so unique in this--that's her being unrational. Maybe get some estimates to show how much money will have to be invested to make the house liveable again.

How is the rental market in the area? If the siblings won't sell, it might be worth keeping as a rental property, but that would still involve a hefty financial investment.

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 06:41 PM
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Re: Advice please - different views

The first thing you have to figure out is who owns the house?

If Dad had a will, and he did not specify an individual to whom he was giving the house, then most courts will deem it split 25/25/25/25 between the siblings. The siblings may petition the court to have exactly one person own it, but only if that person compensates the other three by giving up other valuable items in the estate.

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At the time they all agreed that the oldest brother could have the house
Did they file this with the court? Did the court approve? If not, then the oldest brother is not the owner of the house, it is still owned by "the estate" and thus, jointly by all four.

Someone else asked about who the executor is. The court will have appointed one. Only one. All four will not be splitting executor duties. This executor is charged with distributing the estate as Dad would have wanted it. Not "according to which child is in the greatest financial need", unless you can demonstrate, through a history of Dad's actions, that he usually did things that way.

The executor may recommend to the court that "person C should take title". If big brother has already gotten his name on the title, the court may very well order that the title be transferred to whoever has now been designated. The court will want to see either financial compensation from Person C to the other three, or a written agreement to something alternative - such as "no immediate compensation. When Person C sells the house, which must be accomplished in six months, proceeds will be distributed so as to equalize each person's portion." Again, variations can be accepted.

If the house still belongs to the estate (which I suspect is true), then all expenses related to the house are subtracted from the estate. Your travel to the house is an expense that comes from the estate, so it's shared between the four parties. The court will evaluate significant expenses and decide whether they are legit. Yours sounds legit. In the future, I'd fly to the nearest city, rent a car, and bill it to the estate (you'll pay for it up front, but get reimbursed when the estate is settled).

As you would with anything that is pending legal action, you must diligently keep records of your costs to travel, the materials you put into repairing the house, etc, since you will be asking someone else to compensate you. And, you're probably already aware that the court will side with you more readily if you engage with as many other siblings as are being receptive, that the repairs were required and they knew and pre-authorized your trip.

Unless Dad would have said otherwise, the three siblings are under no obligation, legally, ethically, familialy or financially, to support the badly-behaved brother. His action of moving into the house before the court allowed already puts him in contempt of court. Most courts would forgive such an infraction, as long as his future behavior relative to the courts is on the up and up.

Given that the house is fully paid for, when it sells, an equal amount will go to each sibling. Older financially-troubled brother would get his share, but of course, he'll use much of it bailing himself out of debt. If his debt is higher than the amount he'll get from the house, the court can send him a bill, and the matter won't close until there's a written payment agreement from the brother to the other siblings. He won't be able to pay it, probably, but now that it's part of a legal proceeding, the "unpaid debt" becomes a tax deduction for the remaining siblings.

The older brother claiming the stolen inheritance will find no ear in the court. He is, in effect, accusing the legal system of participating in theft, which would likely garner him another contempt ruling. At this stage of the game, most family courts would observe this person's behavior and be willing to negate their opinion in the proceeding...assuming the other three aren't as bad.

If the siblings absolutely cannot come to agreements, they should petition the court for a ruling. After 5 minutes of arguments (which may be handled by paper or phone), the judge will most likely order an arbitrator to step in, who will be paid by the estate. Whatever ruling the arbitrator recommends, the judge is likely to agree, make it law, and close the case. And there will be nobody "owning" that house. Wait - I see that you wrote that the court has already said if it's not settled soon, the court will force a sale. Good for the court. Good for you, all you have to do is sit back and watch.

It will make a difference if there are other assets, too - the estate is considered to be all assets taken as a single dollar value.

Nothing you've said has indicated that this is a complex estate, and in such cases, closure is normal in 3-6 months. Two years is probably setting a record in the court, and putting all the siblings in a highly visible position in that family law court...and if someone, ten years from now, is sued for a domestic issue, this will be held against them. Get this case closed...for everybody's future, this is more important when whether the house stays in the family or whatever it is that they're arguing about.

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With this proposed 25% share I'm sure it will come down to my wife and her sister to cover all costs...
I doubt it. My wife is going through some estate stuff right now, and so far, the court has allowed any expense incurred by any sibling to become an expense to the estate. Get this cleared up with your court, or at least spend on an hour with an estate attorney to determine how it's handled in your area.

Your wife and her sis may spend in cash up front, but if they submit adequate documentation to the court, then the court will adjust the payout to each sibling appropriately.

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The one who moved to Idaho hasn't....(gone back for this things)
Give him a choice: abandon his stuff, go get it himself, or one of the siblings will engage a professional packer and shipper to pack and ship - and the brother will have this amount of money deducted from his proceeds when the house is sold.

Check with the court also on this - after some time with stuff left in a house that's not his, it's possible to get brother's stuff declared legally abandoned, and then the sibs can do what they wish with it. My soft heart tells me I'd ship what appears to have sentimental value and yard-sale the rest to pay for the shipping.

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Mom is getting involved
Tell her "thanks for trying to help, but it's between us and the court. We'll let you know if the court has asked for your participation."

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...point out to my wife...afford to keep the house...
Did I miss something? Did you keep the most important aspect of the dispute for last?

It's hard to lose a parent. The courts understand nostalgia, but unless the house was built bit-by-bit by the hands of the parent who died, it's just a purchased item. Cherished pieces of art, furniture, kids' finger-painting from grade school, the courts will generally see through to letting people keep. But unless dad was good with his money, the house represents the largest dollar value in the estate, and the court will insist that it be treated exactly that way.

If your wife wants the house, the court will probably allow it, but only by having her purchase it from the other three siblings. The rest of the costs you indicated are true enough, but unless she's willing to sacrifice a large chunk of your life's savings, it's going to require a mortgage - and you're going to have to qualify for it, too. And...if you're not going to live in it, the qualification criteria are much higher, and if it's 17 hours away, the criteria get even worse, and the interest rate is higher on "non owner occupied" homes, and because it's not your principle residence, the interest on that mortgage is not deductible. Expect some of these factors to get worse if you cannot demonstrate that you have successful past history of being an absentee landlord.

I'd say a few sessions with a therapist would help - the question being, why is she so attached to the house? Unresolved problems with Dad, and the house is a tangible way of believing they might still be resolved? Just a thought...

Good luck.

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-20-2016, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Advice please - different views

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How is the rental market in the area? If the siblings won't sell, it might be worth keeping as a rental property, but that would still involve a hefty financial investment.
I had this thought but its a very small town where it wouldn't make sense to try and rent it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
The first thing you have to figure out is who owns the house?

If Dad had a will, and he did not specify an individual to whom he was giving the house, then most courts will deem it split 25/25/25/25 between the siblings. The siblings may petition the court to have exactly one person own it, but only if that person compensates the other three by giving up other valuable items in the estate.
The will only states split equally between the kids so the oldest brother has absolutely no ground in what he's saying


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Did they file this with the court? Did the court approve? If not, then the oldest brother is not the owner of the house, it is still owned by "the estate" and thus, jointly by all four.
They only said the oldest could have the house when they were discussing what to do while we were all together at the funeral. But behind the brothers back none of them wanted him to have the house to himself which has finally came out.

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Someone else asked about who the executor is. The court will have appointed one. Only one. All four will not be splitting executor duties. This executor is charged with distributing the estate as Dad would have wanted it. Not "according to which child is in the greatest financial need", unless you can demonstrate, through a history of Dad's actions, that he usually did things that way.
This is their grandmother who has dragged her feet on all the court proceedings (part of why this simple estate was not closed out in 6 months as it should have been). She shares the views of the others that he cannot be trusted in many ways with the house. But this comes back to my stance that I don't want any part of it due to the money pit it will be; If I was going to spend 10k on something it would be a Harley, not a house I go work at maybe once a year.

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The executor may recommend to the court that "person C should take title". If big brother has already gotten his name on the title, the court may very well order that the title be transferred to whoever has now been designated. The court will want to see either financial compensation from Person C to the other three, or a written agreement to something alternative - such as "no immediate compensation. When Person C sells the house, which must be accomplished in six months, proceeds will be distributed so as to equalize each person's portion." Again, variations can be accepted.
Big brother is not on the title at all, he just moved in when he got evicted for not paying his rent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
It will make a difference if there are other assets, too - the estate is considered to be all assets taken as a single dollar value.

Nothing you've said has indicated that this is a complex estate, and in such cases, closure is normal in 3-6 months. Two years is probably setting a record in the court, and putting all the siblings in a highly visible position in that family law court...and if someone, ten years from now, is sued for a domestic issue, this will be held against them. Get this case closed...for everybody's future, this is more important when whether the house stays in the family or whatever it is that they're arguing about.
Yes very simple. The other "high" dollar items valued at $1,500, $3,000 and maybe $5,000 (all generous estimates) were assigned to each of the other kids; So I told them just buy the oldest out of his quarter of that value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
Check with the court also on this - after some time with stuff left in a house that's not his, it's possible to get brother's stuff declared legally abandoned, and then the sibs can do what they wish with it. My soft heart tells me I'd ship what appears to have sentimental value and yard-sale the rest to pay for the shipping.

It's hard to lose a parent. The courts understand nostalgia, but unless the house was built bit-by-bit by the hands of the parent who died, it's just a purchased item. Cherished pieces of art, furniture, kids' finger-painting from grade school, the courts will generally see through to letting people keep. But unless dad was good with his money, the house represents the largest dollar value in the estate, and the court will insist that it be treated exactly that way.

If your wife wants the house, the court will probably allow it, but only by having her purchase it from the other three siblings. The rest of the costs you indicated are true enough, but unless she's willing to sacrifice a large chunk of your life's savings, it's going to require a mortgage - and you're going to have to qualify for it, too. And...if you're not going to live in it, the qualification criteria are much higher, and if it's 17 hours away, the criteria get even worse, and the interest rate is higher on "non owner occupied" homes, and because it's not your principle residence, the interest on that mortgage is not deductible. Expect some of these factors to get worse if you cannot demonstrate that you have successful past history of being an absentee landlord.

I'd say a few sessions with a therapist would help - the question being, why is she so attached to the house? Unresolved problems with Dad, and the house is a tangible way of believing they might still be resolved? Just a thought...

Good luck.
Thank you for all the advice I have read and re-read everything you've shared to soak it in. I totally agree that is is just a physical house all the memories and sentiment is just that it is not bound to the physical. My wife wants the house in whole or in part but I have no desire to take this up; if we lived closer and could more easily get there for a weekend here and there sure it may be worth it but its not.

Thank you again everyone; It is a blessing to have this online community available to everyone.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Advice please - different views

well she submitted her documents to the courts that she wants a 25% stake in the house. Not sure where everything sits with her siblings. This sucks, I am so tired of working my ass off and feeling guilty every time I spend 10$ or the fact that I am very successful for my age but still can't buy the vehicle I want (hurts when my younger brother goes out and buys a brand new $50k) truck and I can't even afford payments on a 6 year old truck.
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