Financial Problems in MarriageWhen financial times are tough, it adds to the stress we deal with on a daily basis. This section is for talking about how financial problems affect our relationships and ways to cope.
She gets in the manic phase and the spending starts, in her mind she's going to be in a successful business and all that unsold inventory is nothing more than a figment of her imagination.
she's reckless, irresponsible, badly treated with meds, and past the point of being rational.
You're in a financial war. Cut up her cards, close accounts with her name on it and tell her you are taking over.
To be fair, yes she does suffer from severe depression. Recently the topic of bipolar disorder was brought up, however the therapist does not think this is the case based on meeting with the both of us. She is on medication, but does not feel comfortable talking to me and had a bad experience talking to a counselor and is afraid to trust a new one.
The second thing is that you set a way forward. Set some common sense rules. If she needs an income (and that may become a must), she needs a regular job. Any situation where you need to invest your own money to make money is at best a business (with all the attendant risks) and at worst a scam.
I'm sorry if I misled you or did not give enough information. We both already work full-time jobs. She is looking at this as a means of adding income, except that in the past it was for "us" as a family unit and now it feels more like it's for "her" individually. I bring in about 60% and she about 40%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTO
You need to work to instill a sense of accountability and duty to the family in her. It is wrong for her, as your partner, to ignore her responsibility to do for her family. It is wrong to put her own comfort first at a time like this. It would be wrong for her to use any future income from you as an opportunity to resume old spending habits without coming to a joint plan for the future.
Totally agree. Now to work on getting that done...
Where to begin...it's such a long story, and I feel like leaving any tiny bit out is not properly representing the situation. But, because I actually want help and not to put people to sleep, let me try and put together a shortened version of events.
My wife and I have been together for 12 years, married for almost 10. Money was pretty good early on, but over time, moving, changing jobs, marriage, kids, debt, etc., things at this point in time are pretty dismal.
We are living paycheck to paycheck. We make it look like we are doing ok, but we are not. Together we make just over $70,000 a year, but after all our bills we pretty much don't have anything. Buying groceries can sometimes be tricky. Over the course of our relationship, my wife has on occaision tried to help out by doing side work. The first time she tried to do an online marketing deal that didn't work out, and we got scammed out of $3,000. I knew she was just trying to help, so I stood by her and we worked through it. The second time she wanted to help was going to be the same kind of situation, and I put a stop to it before it got too far. The third time she decided to do something more legit and be a seller of cosmetics (won't name names).
Between her full-time job and this one she never really seemed to have enough time to devote much to the second. It was a lot of start-up cost and we didn't make a whole lot from it during the time she was selling. A combination of a bad market, her not being able to really devote the necessary resources to it, and a family member that decided she would also sell cosmetics, interfering with the business my wife had been able to get.
She quit for a couple of years and a mountain of inventory stayed in our posession. She had told me up until recently she was done and so I had been pressing her to sell off her inventory so we could just be done with it. Recently we had an argument about money and she was upset because "she" didn't have any money and couldn't spend any for herself. Apparently she forgot that I am in the same boat she is, but it was very centered around her.
I reminded her that we are in bad shape and that I also cannot just go buy something. I also do side work but all of my extra money goes back into the family account, which is another source of tension for us. We started with a joint account, and somewhere along the line she decided she just had to have a split account, so we split our paychecks into separate accounts and laid out the bills we each would pay. She liked it because she had "her" money and could spend it how she wanted, and did sometimes, causing problems she covered up with balance transfers. I too had problems and would need to balance transfer, but my main issue was that I had no idea where a good chunk of our money was.
After a time, we switched banks and put everything back into a single account. I like it because I know exactly how much money we have (or don't have), but she feels like she has to ask me to spend any money. I told her that was not true, but if it were a sizeable amount of money, (probably over $100), that it needed to be discussed.
So now all of a sudden she has decided she wants to sell cosmetics on the side again, but didn't really come out and tell me. It was all done kinda hush hush. Not hidden, but not directly stated either. We discuss getting back into this and I remind her that we still have lots of inventory that is just sitting and needs to be sold before we attempt to spend any more money. She said she wouldn't have to buy anything she could jus sell what she had. I told her that after she had a party and sold some of it we would see if it was worthwhile to continue.
After she went to bed the other night on a hunch I checked her credit card and found that she had spent almost $500 on startup items and more inventory. I was so angry with her that I couldn't think straight. It wasn't just that she spent the money, it was that she lied about it. Also, I had worked hard to get her balance on that card down, and this put it right back up to the limit. As an aside, there were also also frequent purchases for ebooks on her account that were getting out of hand.
I spent the next hour or so writing her a letter about my feelings and frustrations and also stating that I needed her to turn over her card to me, and left it open but minimized on my computer (we both use it). After that I went for a drive and eventually about 2 AM I went to bed. Sunday came and went and she never made mention of the letter, so I can only assume she never saw it.
So...what do I do? I am not looking to start WWIII, or get divorced, but I cannot let this go on. Both of us have been pretty liberal with spending in our time but we are out of options as I see it. We refinanced, moved loans around, got loans to pay off other loans, etc. We are hanging on by a thread and all she can worry it about is not having any money "she" can spend. I agree it's depressing and I hate it too, but with 3 kids depending on us I think we are headed in the wrong direction.
Additionally, I would like input on how to handle this in a manner consistent with being more Alpha, as suggested at MarriedManSexLife. I am a long-time Beta trying to break out of it and I feel this could be a good opportunity, but I want to do it right. As I said, I'm not looking to become single or anything like that.
Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
The way to respond alpha style is to not write those letters, confront her face to face, in a very firm manner. All important issues should not be addressed in e-mails or letters, it should be done in contact situations.
She lied to you, you have to inform her that this is totally not acceptable and you are not going to bail her out of her poor decisions. Make her liable for this, take her credit card away from her, and with the allowence she gets to spend on a person level, take x-amount out of it for her credit card installments until that balance is clear. You now have to be the dominant "bread winner" and when you know finances are an issue, act accordingly and let her know you have a plan for getting the family out of this situation and she must support you in that regard.
It has been some time since I've updated this topic. Since all of that happened, we had started to do better with regard to financial discussions. It wasn't really what it should be, but better.
~~Skipping a lot of back story~~
In an effort to be spiteful of what had happened, she ended up changing her password on that credit account so that I could no longer view its activity. Each time I would confront her about having it she brought up the whole deal about it being illegal for me to be in her accounts and be messing around, which although she has a point, because no one else was paying attention to it, I thought I didn't have a choice.
Anyway, fast forward a ways and we come to this past Friday. I had noticed that the minimum payment on the card was steady at a particular level, until last month when it went up again. I found this strange but did not say anything at the time. Then again this month it went up, and I found myself wondering what she had been buying, especially with the card being withing a couple hundred dollars of the limit. Of course without being able to see the account I could only assume she had used the card information stored on a website somewhere because I physically still had the card.
(This is the part where I must admit that I am not very good at starting these kinds of conversations. Usually I come off very accusing tone even when I don't mean to.)
I confronted her about the issue and she blew up all over me about it, but then said that she had changed the minimum payment to pay more so it would be cleared faster.
(Fast forward through some back and forth about me being accused of hiding financial things from her and me giving back specific examples of her hiding financial stuff from me.)
She also happened to be ill over the weekend and barely spoke to me the rest of Friday and all of Saturday. On Sunday morning we got back into it.
I had been patient and calm but decided I had sat there in stalemate long enough. It was at this point that I told her I was sick of having this same discussion/argument/fight every few months and that I wanted it to stop. I told her that I was going to give her back her card and that I expected her to give me access to the account again. I also told her that if she did not I would have no choice but to lock her out of a secondary checking account she has been using for her Mary Kay operating money, as the account happened to be in my name.
There was a lot more to the argument than this, and from her viewpoint she is loosing control and privacy, but what I am trying to explain is that with shared/family money, there is no control or privacy, and that all I am wanting is to know where we sit so I can make decisions based on that. All she hears is that I am "taking away the keys", sort to speak.
I also told her that she knew all of my passwords and could easily get into any of my accounts. In fact I invited her to so we both would know what was going on. I told her that all she had to do was ask me and I would give her the information.
Even beyond all of that, I told her that I didn't want to know what was going on in her business account, as long as it didn't affect the family finances, and that she was free to do what she wanted there.
Anyway, I put an end to the conversation with my ultimatum. I wasn't wanting to take it that far, but she would not hear reason. I know she is trying to find a way to make a power grab because I stated my expectations and what I would do if they were not met. Consequently, I found her password written down this evening when I got home.
Two completely different options:
1. You handle this directly but calmly - and make it about the kids - setting a good example and stability. I am going to warn you in advance - you are operating from a place of weakness. What I mean, is that many/most women are pretty hard-wired about male provider expectations. At some level she is really wishing you would somehow "make enough more" to solve the problem. Not saying that is fair - saying that is common and it is difficult to directly resolve. It is possible - by pressing her to think about the future: A future where you have little to no savings/net worth for retirement, can't help the kids with college/weddings. And haven't set the best example for them in terms of money management. Not good.
2. Sign up for "financial peace university" Dave Ramsey - supposed to be good. That way she hears it from a third party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne81
Where to begin...it's such a long story, and I feel like leaving any tiny bit out is not properly representing the situation. But, because I actually want help and not to put people to sleep, let me try and put together a shortened version of events.
My wife and I have been together for 12 years, married for almost 10. Money was pretty good early on, but over time, moving, changing jobs, marriage, kids, debt, etc., things at this point in time are pretty dismal.
We are living paycheck to paycheck. We make it look like we are doing ok, but we are not. Together we make just over $70,000 a year, but after all our bills we pretty much don't have anything. Buying groceries can sometimes be tricky. Over the course of our relationship, my wife has on occaision tried to help out by doing side work. The first time she tried to do an online marketing deal that didn't work out, and we got scammed out of $3,000. I knew she was just trying to help, so I stood by her and we worked through it. The second time she wanted to help was going to be the same kind of situation, and I put a stop to it before it got too far. The third time she decided to do something more legit and be a seller of cosmetics (won't name names).
Between her full-time job and this one she never really seemed to have enough time to devote much to the second. It was a lot of start-up cost and we didn't make a whole lot from it during the time she was selling. A combination of a bad market, her not being able to really devote the necessary resources to it, and a family member that decided she would also sell cosmetics, interfering with the business my wife had been able to get.
She quit for a couple of years and a mountain of inventory stayed in our posession. She had told me up until recently she was done and so I had been pressing her to sell off her inventory so we could just be done with it. Recently we had an argument about money and she was upset because "she" didn't have any money and couldn't spend any for herself. Apparently she forgot that I am in the same boat she is, but it was very centered around her.
I reminded her that we are in bad shape and that I also cannot just go buy something. I also do side work but all of my extra money goes back into the family account, which is another source of tension for us. We started with a joint account, and somewhere along the line she decided she just had to have a split account, so we split our paychecks into separate accounts and laid out the bills we each would pay. She liked it because she had "her" money and could spend it how she wanted, and did sometimes, causing problems she covered up with balance transfers. I too had problems and would need to balance transfer, but my main issue was that I had no idea where a good chunk of our money was.
After a time, we switched banks and put everything back into a single account. I like it because I know exactly how much money we have (or don't have), but she feels like she has to ask me to spend any money. I told her that was not true, but if it were a sizeable amount of money, (probably over $100), that it needed to be discussed.
So now all of a sudden she has decided she wants to sell cosmetics on the side again, but didn't really come out and tell me. It was all done kinda hush hush. Not hidden, but not directly stated either. We discuss getting back into this and I remind her that we still have lots of inventory that is just sitting and needs to be sold before we attempt to spend any more money. She said she wouldn't have to buy anything she could jus sell what she had. I told her that after she had a party and sold some of it we would see if it was worthwhile to continue.
After she went to bed the other night on a hunch I checked her credit card and found that she had spent almost $500 on startup items and more inventory. I was so angry with her that I couldn't think straight. It wasn't just that she spent the money, it was that she lied about it. Also, I had worked hard to get her balance on that card down, and this put it right back up to the limit. As an aside, there were also also frequent purchases for ebooks on her account that were getting out of hand.
I spent the next hour or so writing her a letter about my feelings and frustrations and also stating that I needed her to turn over her card to me, and left it open but minimized on my computer (we both use it). After that I went for a drive and eventually about 2 AM I went to bed. Sunday came and went and she never made mention of the letter, so I can only assume she never saw it.
So...what do I do? I am not looking to start WWIII, or get divorced, but I cannot let this go on. Both of us have been pretty liberal with spending in our time but we are out of options as I see it. We refinanced, moved loans around, got loans to pay off other loans, etc. We are hanging on by a thread and all she can worry it about is not having any money "she" can spend. I agree it's depressing and I hate it too, but with 3 kids depending on us I think we are headed in the wrong direction.
Additionally, I would like input on how to handle this in a manner consistent with being more Alpha, as suggested at MarriedManSexLife. I am a long-time Beta trying to break out of it and I feel this could be a good opportunity, but I want to do it right. As I said, I'm not looking to become single or anything like that.
My husband is the alpha /captain etc. and I am.....his wife lol. I approached him early on in our relationship with my desire to have it that way. He handles all bills finances etc. I do, however, manage my stock portfolio that I brought to our marriage. But it's ours nonetheless. He has a cc under my name to build credit for me but he takes care of that too. We went thru a period of time where things were tight for various reasons and he told me exactly where we were $ wise so I knew what we were really dealing with. That was enough motivation for me not to spend. The book..the surrended wife...talks about the financial stuff in depth. We already decided he would handle finances when we were engaged but reading that book helped me understand why this works well and what is does for my husbands self esteem and our marriage in general.
I agree with posts above, if you are making $70,000 a year and are having severe money troubles - you are likely living beyond your means or have in the past. Your past posts show a bit of resentment in that area, and I think, you still hold a desire to still live beyond those means yourself. (Mentioning that you wanted a new car when you can't pay your bills. Unless your car is dangerous and falling apart, that's not really a need that should be considered right now.)
Do you "stockpile" groceries on sale? Or just buy them as you need them, regardless of the price? Do you use coupons? Do you read flyers and smart shop? You could save a lot of money there if you look into it. (I average about 25%-50% off each grocery bill, including diapers.)
How much money are you spending on daycare? At that point, is you wife actually making enough money to have the daycare, plus the other associated costs of her working (gas, clothes, etc) worth it?
Have you thought about refinancing your student loans under a term like Income Based that takes into account how many children you have and your income?
When you mention "side money" and how you put 80-90% into the account, that means there is 10-20% that doesn't go into that account, so - I'm assuming you use that for your own means? Do you ask the wife's permission to use that money? Or - because she isn't the "breadwinner" she has to ask but you don't. That could be the reason she resents not having any of her "own" money. Begging a spouse for money is demeaning, it's like having to beg a parent.
Perhaps that was the reason for wanting to get back into the Mary Kay thing again, that should could make some side money, and keep a percentage (like you said you do) so she wouldn't have to beg.
I'd consider getting some counseling at this point.
I agree with posts above, if you are making $70,000 a year and are having severe money troubles - you are likely living beyond your means or have in the past. Your past posts show a bit of resentment in that area, and I think, you still hold a desire to still live beyond those means yourself. (Mentioning that you wanted a new car when you can't pay your bills. Unless your car is dangerous and falling apart, that's not really a need that should be considered right now.)
Do you "stockpile" groceries on sale? Or just buy them as you need them, regardless of the price? Do you use coupons? Do you read flyers and smart shop? You could save a lot of money there if you look into it. (I average about 25%-50% off each grocery bill, including diapers.)
How much money are you spending on daycare? At that point, is you wife actually making enough money to have the daycare, plus the other associated costs of her working (gas, clothes, etc) worth it?
Have you thought about refinancing your student loans under a term like Income Based that takes into account how many children you have and your income?
When you mention "side money" and how you put 80-90% into the account, that means there is 10-20% that doesn't go into that account, so - I'm assuming you use that for your own means? Do you ask the wife's permission to use that money? Or - because she isn't the "breadwinner" she has to ask but you don't. That could be the reason she resents not having any of her "own" money. Begging a spouse for money is demeaning, it's like having to beg a parent.
Perhaps that was the reason for wanting to get back into the Mary Kay thing again, that should could make some side money, and keep a percentage (like you said you do) so she wouldn't have to beg.
I'd consider getting some counselin
g at this point.
70k is not a lot in most major cities. Just want to mention that. We make over 100k together and don't live a lavish lifestyle by any means. We have money issues too. Posted via Mobile Device
Wayne81, it seems like you are getting a lot of advice to share financial decison making so that the power struggles are kept to a minimum. Listen to your wife when she says she feels like she has no control. Feeling powerless leads to resentment.
I can empathize with a lot of what you're experiencing. Hubby and I have had some financial issues, this recession has hit us hard. We did have to adjust our living style, and we're both bitter and turn that into motivation to go back to the way things were. $60-70k isnt what it used to be, especially with exploitative student loans and regular medical expenses.
I can share with you the road we've been on, and I hope our experiences could give you some insight. So, I have a degree and he doesn't... My income has been increasing incrementally while his got knocked down from position to position (mostly retail) to eventual unemployment. Since he doesn't have a degree, his options have been limited and he's tried some of those *invest first and earn your money back later* positions :insurance sales, barbering, musical artist promotions, tobacco sales, municipal political campaigning, restaurant consultant. Mind you, he is a multi-talented individual, and all these different things had potential but they relied too heavily on unreliable individuals. I was supportive of him even though he did little more than break even with these investments. But after each one we would discuss what went on, what went wrong and the ills of the "pay money to get money" which really only works for rich people. After the last one, we'd had it. He enrolled in university, which is yet another investment, but will allow him to work his connections. He knows a lot of architects, lawyers, doctors, civil administrators etc. but they can't get him an interview to any lucrative position bc they say "no" to anyone w/o a degree. He's still trying to get retail management, but those are scarce these days (but had an interview last week!)
As for the finances, it used to be just me taking care of the bills, but when money got tight, he was a lot better at figuring out who to pay when you couldnt pay everybody. Now, every friday, and sometimes in between, we sit down and tabulate our expenses together. Anything over $70 we feel the need to confer with each other. And, we have only ever had 1 bank acct
Then again, it's been the little things that get us too... eating out a little too much and other things that run about $20-30. It's taken us awhile to get to this point (2 yrs), vascillating between one person or the other taking charge of the account, until eventually we got to the point where we can clearly communicate and work together without arguing
Also, one of our cars got stolen (the nicer one unfortunately) and we've been down to one car since, thank god we've got good public transport here. Beyond that, all our credit accts are closed. they have been since that law got passed and all the companies doubled the interest rates just before it went into effect. We've just been doing payment plan after payment plan to get those down, and sometimes they take a back seat to the more pressing needs. Depending on the company, they can be pretty understanding. We would never take out a home equity loan to pay interest on money also accruing interest. I've seen my parents do it twice to no effect (then again their finances are another story)
Now for the alpha v beta, I don't think everyone falls into those categories (but some clearly do) Hubby and I each have our ways and moments of being "alpha" or being dominant. I'm not sure exactly if you and your wife fall into those dynamics or not. I don't think there's one way to settle argumentative patterns for everybody. Some people respond to written or face to face. Then too there are different people that respond to conversation and force. Hubby and I converse, but in my intereactions with some other less intelligent persons, they don't.
"Divorce" can be a powerful word. IMO, it shouldn't be used as just a powerplay, it can convey to your spouse that you're not as committed to the relationship. If it's not just a power play and you really are considering it, I think go all in or go all out.
I don't know if I or anyone on here can help you figure out the best method for conflict resolution in your marriage, but I bet MC would be helpful.
I've received some pretty interesting and I think helpful advice, particularly from Jimena. I'd like to thank all of you for your thoughts. In general, she does feel like she has to "ask" for permission to spend. She says she feels guilty if she spends money without asking. This is typically because I am the one that keeps an eye on the finances, however I have never told her she has to ask for permission to spend money, only that we check with each other before spending over a certain amount, say $100. She doesn't have to ask me for permission, but she makes herself feel guilty about it and therefore feels like she has to ask, creating the resentment of not having any money or power over it.
I've tried to help her understand that if she would just keep an eye on it like I do she would know where things were at and would not have to "ask". The issue is this (I think):
Her mom has always bent over backwards to get her and her sister whatever they wanted when they wanted it, and to an extent her mom has treated me the same way. My wife's parents are by no means wealthy, but they parented under the model of "sacrifice all for the good of the child". There is a design flaw here in that her mom (and her grandmother before her) would use this as a means of control to get you to do things the way they wanted. My wife has always resented this control mechanism, and I think projects that on to me even though she's basically creating it herself by not staying informed on the financial situation. I certainly don't want her coming to me every 5 seconds asking to spend money, like she's some sort of child, but I do want her to be responsible with the spending.
Her problem is that she will spend without checking, or will spend on purpose when she is angry at me. Spite is her primary weapon of choice and it is powerful.
In general, I think we have explored all of our loan options short of bankruptcy and the necessary bills are as low as I can get them. On an interesting note, she did admit to me the other day that she just wants extra money to spend on things we want, and that saying she wanted her own money was just because she was mad at me at the time.
I guess at the moment I want to see if we can discuss the finances weekly and see where it takes us. We have been able to start communicating about other things in our relationship, I see no reason why we can't also include money.
New to this site and read through your posts. Any update? I'm trying to learn more about others' situations to try to help me with my own. One day I may be brave enough to share my story.
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Re: Just Whose Money is It? 
