General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Being intimate is more than sex. It's knowing each other inside and out. I know this because I am in your wife's position. My husband is not a very intimate person. I'd love for him to make me feel like I'm the only woman in the world. Call me at work and check on me or take me out for coffee. Sometimes it's as simple as shutting up and listening to her every word. Make her feel like you can't get close enough to her. One well placed comment can ignite an entire evening of passion. When's the last time you said something like "yea, she's nice looking, but she doesn't hold a candle to you!" Now I come home and initiate everything. He's perfectly content to sit in his lazy-boy and sleep. Add some excitement. It doesn't have to be extravagant. She will appreciate the gesture. And let me also point this out...One good turn deserves another. It's like dominoes; once the first deed is done, she'll might try to do something back for you.
OMG,
Have you considered sending the letter you wrote to your personal therapist to your wife as an email? Once you send it, she might read it some day, if not right away. The letter reads very intimate to me. You were tuned with your innermost thoughts and naked with your feelings. It was touching. If she's been feeling frustrated and sad that you two have not been connecting emotionally, this letter at least will give her a glimpse into your own struggles and vulnerability.
Based on what you shared here, I get the impression that she may perceive you as controlling, dominant, and insensitive. She will get to see different side of you: insightful, tuned with own feelings, aware of own shortcomings and struggling to address them, etc. I know that it's much more difficult to be that naked and insightful with our own feelings when we're having face to face conversations, especially if there's a long history of friction and misunderstandings between two parties. That's when the writing can really help. You could be open and vulnerable with your own demons, fears, joy and love in your writing. Share the side of you that she rarely gets to see/hear though writing.
It also seems that she is very reluctant to share her own feelings and thoughts with you, and that could feel very lonely to her. She might feel that there's no point in sharing those since you wouldn't understand her anyway. Once someone is in that mode, it's very difficult to feel anything for the spouse. I've been there. She'll need to see hope that it could work, and that you could really understand her. I think that your writing can do just that. Give her a hope and opening that the relationship could work. Another advantage of writing could be that you have time to respond, taking the impulse and habitual reactions out of the interaction. If she feels safe in writing, she could actually share with you her own feelings, thoughts, insights, etc.
I think that you have what it takes to rebuild the intimacy with her and to restore love that flows out of you. Not too many men are so tuned with both their alpha and beta sides , but you seem to have both.
Hello MT, have been working through your article tonight. I will take things in sections if you don't mind. If you do... quick say something be ore I write the rest of this post.
OK, I have read your responses.
I was thrown slightly in the beginning becuase you seemed to be a bit too understanding and easy going about the lack of sex, the lack of intimacy, the lack of respect and compliments. However, I am thinking some of that could be due to your being on an antidepressant. Without it, you would probably be as edgy as hell and more motivated to DO SOMETHING.
So yes, by what you say, your faults seem to be on the side of lacking sensitivity to others, and over-controlling.
If you put these two things right, then if she still does not want any form of intimacy, the ball shifts to her court, as far as working on things.
The fact that you are both on the same antidepressant just stinks. I think your wife's sex drive is low and probably made lower by the drug. Things could improve, but I don't hold out a lot of hope as far as having a blissful marriage goes. That takes two people actively giving 110 percent.
If you work on yourself, you can have a goal of being the best YOU you can be. Life might recognise that and reward you with a better wife. That could be her or a new model.
I must declare my hand here. I hate the way drugs are dished out like sweets. I had a client last year who was put on an antidepressant for a short term external crisis. The crisis passed, but six years later, the guy was still on the pills. Why? because his doctor did not even to check to see if the crisis had passed.
His marriage collapsed, due in part I believe, to his personality change on the drug. Antidepressants can do many things, but making people more exciting is not one of them.
Drugs are great when they are needed. Unfortunately, a lot of money is made from foisting them on a dumbed-down public, so whereas excellent clinical research lies behind many drugs, the reality is that they are dished out indiscriminately and, as in the case of my client, there effects and duration are often not monitored.
Thus the way that they are applied in practice bears little relation to the regime employed during the highly monitored clinical testing prior to their licensing. IMHO.
Sorry I got behind responding to people....I will try to catch main questions/points now.
WantsHappiness
I'm really never sure about her self perception. She is a complicated little lady. It goes up and down I'd guess. While in the past I'm sure my actions had a help in a downswing for her, as of late I'd guess it is mostly just related to herself, not really me or the kids, I'd imagine her store not being successful and on the verge of being closed due to that can't help - it is really a huge thing to her.
As far as things she is working on as a result of counseling. This would of course be better answered by her. We are now much better communicators, she is now able to 'sometimes' bring things up when they bother her instead of burying them - I rather believe she thinks she shouldn't have to though, that I should never error again. Counseling, not counseling, not sure but in the last month she has been doing a remarkable job of being an initiator...actually saying "I love you", instead of just responding "I love you too". Prior to this she had done that only one time, the day after I mentioned that it doesn't happen. Even lately she has called me at work to share some joy. To be short, no we've never gone into her bad behaviors in counseling. It may come in time... we are still going.
Me, through counseling and a better understanding of how I became the person I'd been and how to avoid becoming that person again, I'm feeling much better. You may not get this but I have replaced my self label of undesirable with undesired. That took a lot of work. While in general it is better it still leaves me with a sadness, being as the one I wish to be desired by is the one that does not. Lets face it though, you can't really make yourself desire somebody you don't desire, if somebody doesn't click your switch, the electricity doesn't flow.
So that is rather where I'm at. In general I've pretty happy, yet the thought of my marriage dissolving whenever we can get my wife solvent and missing her and the kids is a cloud looming in my mind. Yes, I've pretty much gone to the "I love her, I want her to be happy, so ...set her free to go find her happiness"
That being said, their is that time between now and whenever then is (could be quite a considerable amount of time) and I am trying to love her the best way i can and as the original intent of this thread indicates - trying to find a way to help make her to open some of her castle walls to me.
Yes still going to marriage counseling. As per her getting counseling for the mental, physical and likely sexual abuse. I think she has touched on it in a meeting or so but never ridden it out. It would be painful and she tries to avoid that sort of conflict at all cost. As per her "low sex drive" she pretty much made comment from our second year of marriage onward that she "should probably go and have that checked out". Never did and I became rather resentful at hearing it again and again.
I went to my own counselor for a while, she mentioned it would probably be good for her to do so as well, but never has acted on it. Quite frankly, if I didn't make the marriage counselor appointments, I don't think she'd ever make one of those for us either. She complained we never went out enough in those 9 years but never once made a date for us during that same period. Yes i get that she wanted me to want to do it. But I was working 60+ hours a week to support us and she was a stay at home mom. Likewise I mentioned in my letter that she said she felt the only reason I wanted her around was to be a "hole and a maid". What I didn't say is those would be the absolute last things I would have wanted to keep her around for. You saw my numbers posted for sex, the greatest percentage of which were dead fish. Well divide those in about 2 or 3 and you will get the number of times she vacuumed the floors or wiped off a dining table in those same number of years. She was pretty non-existent in both fields. To be fair I knew she was a pitiful housekeeper when I married her, i just mistakenly thought it was a being single living on your own thing.
Yes, I've pretty much gone to the "I love her, I want her to be happy, so ...set her free to go find her happiness"
I agree with that sentiment except for one thing. By saying that "I will set her free", instead of "I will set myself free", there is an element of guilt showing, and thus a little bit of the "people pleaser".
Thus, to use a metaphor based on what you said above, You have gone from speaking the language of "I am undesirable" to "I am undesired by her", but you still speak with an accent...
How do you become more intimate with your spouse? Not sexually. My wife has said that is a major barrier of ours. I'm pretty sure she is doing nothing to help it but maybe she is and I'm not catching her signals. It is also very likely she wants "it" but has no idea how to go about achieving "it" either...or maybe even what "it" is.
So help me if you have some ideas...how do we go about leading into this? And maybe even "What is your definition of it"
Thanks
Tell her all yer secrets. ALL of them.
That means thoughts, fantasies, all of it. Then you'll be more intimate.
Intimacy is about "sharing" things that you only share with her.
Most people have a certain amount of thought that they keep to themselves... even with spouse as they are worried about the reaction.
OMG, she hasn't left, right? Not physically, anyway. So there is still hope. Do not give up--you are doing a lot of things right. Do not go too far in the other direction (letting her walk all over you), but it never, ever hurts to err on the side of caution and let her know you are considering her p.o.v. but you are also feeling "threatened," as in, at risk of losing too much that is important to you, so sometimes you will take a stand out of respect for yourself. The problem, of course, is that you took that stand all the time, out of some need to be in control, or thrill of being in control, or whatever. So it's harder for you to find the balance, since you were uncomfortable with the vulnerability of giving up some control.
From one woman's point of view, I will say that if she was "done," you'd know it. There would be no "giving it a try." Something is keeping her attached. At some point, you two will have to decide if it is too little to make the marriage work for each of you--a sad but honest outcome. Are you there yet? If not, be patient--very patient. Years of negative interactions (from her p.o.v.) cannot and will not be overcome quickly, that's why this is a trust issue now. But a trust issue is very different from "I have no spark of desire for you and cannot stand the thought of you touching me." Right now, she may not want you to touch her, but she still "wants to want" it. A vast gulf between the two things, so yeah, there is still hope and I think you are doing a lot that is right. If you reach your threshold of waiting, that's ok. You may reach your threshold before she can get where you need her to get. Do not blame each other for this. You are both human and can only move as fast/slow as you can.
Susan
Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know
Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.
Mem, my point is that it was NOT the incident 6 years ago--it is something that happens routinely and the vent that sticks in her mind is memorable b/c of the way it resonated emotionally.
As it turns out, I was right--he was routinely disregarding her (among a lot of other disrespectful behaviors). If he had rarely disregarded her wishes, needs, etc., the incident years ago would not have been remembered.
I distinctly remember certain events that really triggered a strong, visceral response in my even if I couldn't explain it at the time--I knew my reaction and my memory of the event wasn't as important as what underlay that reaction--and it took me a long time to find the words to articulate the underlying issues.
In this particular case, the "Back Room" complaint is short-hand for "You disrespect me by ignoring or brushing aside my expressed wishes as though they are not important." The OP has already said that he did this frequently.
Again, if those events were isolated and not part of a pattern, they wouldn't be important or memorable (unless they were particularly painful, breaking trust for example, like one incident of emotional cheating might be pretty darn memorable).
I'm not saying anyone has a right to hold a grudge for a single, minor marital infraction. I'm saying that considering the complaint of an "old" wrong as nothing MORE than a single, minor marital infraction is often quite misguided. It may well be a clue to the pattern of behaviors that are upsetting but difficult for the person to articulate clearly.
"As to your modified question, my answer remains the same. If she can’t connect she may never be in-love with you or anyone else. She cannot get intimacy without the emotions and bonding that goes into it."
I agree with you here, just looking for possible ways to get drips of water into the cracks so that they may have a chance of freezing and making the cracks larger
While I agree with you here, what I'm working on is the next step. What you have mentioned has already been covered.
Thanks
As per the SSRIs well to be sure they are doing one job. I have reduced my dosage by a bit. My wife back July or August of last year tried unsuccessfully to slowly reduce hers.
On my part I can truly say that they have no real effect on me not being PISSED about the lack of sex. I've just gotten myself to the reality of it and do not believe acting like a child not getting what they want is the best answer.
Does she KNOW this is a huge need of mine going unmet? yes
Do I wish she wold at least show an interest in find a way? yes
Do I think my demanding and anger will help? no
It's funny but the thing that does seem to be making a difference (just a tiny bit) is that while I do still give her hugs or hugs with kisses on the neck, I don't hope it will go anywhere...I just walk away. I've seen this before that the "indifference" thing would be an attractor. Wouldn't try it though because it would have been fake, a trick as such. Now it is real, I expect nothing. Heck I'm to the point i 'm not sure what I would do if she got turned on enough to want me.
Reality is though I just don't fake stuff, I don't threaten, not the kids not my wife. I don't ell my kids that they will be grounded for life if they don't do something, I don't try to be somebody I'm not to my wife. I couldn't act indifferent to her when I wasn't.
So I am trying to find what i can do. It sounds like keep doing more of the same and don't give up is pretty much the answer, but I think there are some things in here to listen to a bit harder than I was. Many good thoughts by many people kind enough to take their time to read my long posts and respond with their good thoughts.
I maintain what I said after reading your letter, I think you have an amazingly clear view of the situation and are doing what you need to in order to rectify your past offenses, others in this world have been doing much worse for much longer. I agree with the other posters that if your wife were to read the letter she might have a different perspective. I understand her refusal to do so but it’s more of the avoidance tactic which she needs to get out of the habit of.
It’s good that she’s making some improvements in that area. Do you know if she feels a difference when she communicates?
OMG (did you do that on purpose, lol), I want to tell you something that happened with my husband and I recently. I previously mentioned that I am/was an avoider. I personally think that the abuse your wife endured has a LOT to do with the way she copes and maybe her sex drive so it’s a little different but bear with me. We had a heated argument that got out of control. In the past I would shut down, ignore, avoid and just wait until I didn’t feel mad anymore and whenever that happened (usually a day or less) we would resume as normal never dealing with the problems. Fast forward to this incident in April, I’ve been working on my communication and I know the right thing to do is talk this out but my husband’s defenses were up and I just didn’t know how to get through. Well I forced the issue. I forced myself out of the norm and the rewards were truly astonishing. It took a couple tries but once we talked out what had happened and the whys and hows it was like a giant weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I can't remember feeling this kind of resolution before and who knew it could come from simply talking? The bond I felt to my husband was strengthened and I can’t express how wonderful that felt. We got through it on our own without attacking one another and had really worked through it for the first time probably since we got married and maybe even before. My problem now is tempering that because I don’t seem to have a governor.
Your wife can realize these things too. She has set awfully high standards for you (you’re never supposed to make a mistake again?) and what keeps coming through to me is that you might be tipping in the direction doing/giving too much. Don’t get me wrong, you can’t get enough self-improvement but be careful that you’re not the only one working on this thing and that you don't smother her. Make sure you maintain your well-deserved self-respect. She had two EA’s here, she is not innocent in any way, shape or form. I really think she needs to make just as big of an effort as you are and it doesn’t sound like she’s gone all the way in those efforts.
How can you help her get to that point? Stay the course. She wants it, that’s huge. Share your thoughts and feelings with her, not in a burdensome way but show her you can open up to her and lead by example. If she feels the resulting bond like I did she might be more open to doing so herself.
You could skip Fireproof and go right to the Love Dare, nothing wrong with that and the Dare (I believe) is something you do on your own.
Oh, do I understand correctly when you say you’ve never gone into her bad behaviors in counseling to mean that the counselor is not aware of the EAs?
lonelyone
I'm going to pretty much tell you where things have been for the last year (I'm not discounting that there are many years of hurt in the past for her to recover from, just letting you know where things have been for a while) relating to some of the things you mention.
Every morning I leave for work and she is not yet awake she is left a flower in our bed - she knows this is my kiss and hug to her. Yes, even throughout the winter.
If ever another women is in the mix, actress whatever, she gets something to the effect of "She's OK, but not smokin' like you." Even if we see a dress we both like, instead of complimenting the dress I give a "That would look rockin on you". She has said she looks this way or that (now good things) and I have told her that she must be seeing things odd 'cause I don't see that. She argued back and I said maybe I have "(her name) goggles" then because I couldn't see what she was talking about.
Used to call her most every day from work to sometimes just say hello and let her know I was thinking of her. Don't do often anymore unless I need to. Her choice, says she doesn't like to talk on phone and I was irritating her. Oddly in the past month she has
me here and there for little things...
I try as often as possible to listen to her attentively. The kids not know they cannot just interrupt , I often stop even when she starts talking when I'm on my way from one place to another and listen to her. I make a point to look at her new creations, to ask about her day, to get up and go to her when she has something on the computer she wants to show me even when I really just want to rest a few minutes on the sofa. She absolutely LOVES talking about herself and her projects
My wife and I have come to know her as the kitty cat and me as the puppy dog. Puppy dog nearly always likes to get and give hugs, snuggles, playfulness. Kittycat has her moments but more often wants her space. So yeah kitty cat has as much attention from me as she can take.
I open doors and car doors for her, I talk her up in front of friends and family, I make a big effort to hep with chores, dishes, cooking, cleanup etc. She appreciates the effort here. The door thing is a bit hard for her because she has the "I can do this on my own" thing in her head but she does make the effort and allows it
Yesterday, when she called that her vehicle would not start I left work immediately to go get her and then went and purchased and installed the new starter that night. She did make a big point of saying THANK YOU.
We used to be going out twice a month or so and that has deeply dropped off due to the financial rut. I know I need to work on thinking up free/cheap date stuff a bit harder... The other issue is she has headaches SO often we have lost a few to those and it is hard to actually make plans in a sense. I guess I need to get a bit better at having well laid plans broken and juts do it and get over it if need be.
OMG,
Based on your description of the beginning of the relationship, do you think she ever had much desire for you? '
I only ask because it sure seems like as soon as you committed to marrying her, your sex life totally crashed. There seems no basis for ceasing sex between the ceremony and the reception - well other than she didn't want to have sex. And twice on a 10 day holiday - for young people - that is a huge red flag.
I only raise this because IME you can't change someones raw desire for you that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMarriedGuy
Susan
Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know
Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.
Agreed, been working on the for a year now. Seem to be at a bit of an impasse though. Maybe that impasse is simply the need for more time to affirm a real change not just a temporary one, maybe it needs a shot of adrenaline though so I'm searching a bit.
I used to have the letter printed out and laying on the dresser for her to read if she so chose. She knew it was there and avoided it. Eventually I cleaned of the dresser and ditched it (mostly out of frustration than cleanliness unfortunately). I think it may be a good idea to print it out and put it back again... for when she becomes ready.
Yes, I have to pretty much beg to find out the smallest information about anything deep within her - the REAL stuff. The surface stuff loves to talk about herself...
Re: How to become more intimate? 
Re: How to become more intimate? 
, but you seem to have both.
