General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Hi OMG,
I’ve just read the complete post. Why aren’t you focusing on the EAs? My understanding with those things is that you will not get anywhere with your wife while they’re going on. Not only that but she is also having orgasms with the men she knows. Ok, it’s “over the internet” and not in a bedroom, but she is being both emotionally and physically intimate with them. It’s no wonder you don’t get any of those things, she’s exhausting herself giving them to other men. Neither her mind or her body is with you, they are both with other men. And there you are, providing her with financial things that enable her abusive behavior to continue.
For what it’s worth I reckon you’re being way too tolerant, you’re way over the top with tolerance. I was the same, way too tolerant, patient and understanding, I had way too much empathy and always looked to myself to be the one to change.
First time ever I told my wife what I would no longer tolerate, what my emotional barriers were to stop any further emotional abuse she more or less instantly "mentally checked out" of the relationship. Of course, not before showing zero respect for my emotional barriers.
Bob
Edited to add …
I don’t know if I’m correct with this but you seem to be giving your wife “unconditional love”. That sort of love is usually reserved for our children and I think is mostly given by mothers. But love without barriers means they can do anything and get away with it. But unconditional love for our partner? I did that, I gave my wife unconditional love. I didn’t have any emotional barriers which lead to a lot of abuse of who I am and what I stand for.
If you see sense in this then maybe you can learn from my experience. In my case the abuse just got too much for me and I flipped. It took a very long time and a lot of abuse but I just flipped. That’s the time I told my wife what my emotional barriers are as I needed to protect myself emotionally. I didn’t do it right, I didn’t give her time to digest and think about “the change in me”, I just put the barriers up and she was off. Heartbreaking for both of us.
What I should have done is given myself more time to think about my barriers and how to introduce them to my wife. What I’ve come to recognise is that the introduction of emotional barriers very strongly indicates a huge change in the person and therefore a huge change in the relationship. I didn’t give myself or my wife time to digest that change.
For me emotional barriers were a new thing even after being 40 years with my wife. Since then I’ve done a lot of reading about emotional barriers. The ones I like best is where they are “negotiated” between the partners.
Don't feel sad, get happy! Thank you for your empathy though. Truly I thin we are both happier now than we've been in a long time. I just really want to see it get even better and I believe it can. At least I believe all reasonable efforts and time have not yet been exhausted.
Yesterday was a bit depressing for me because I was listing so much that was/is not good. I imagine reading it felt that way too. Remember though, that things between us now are actually pretty happy. I look forward to going home and seeing her, talking with her, snuggling with her and believe she feels the same way with me!
It's funny to hear "mostly me" though...as a woman I figured (if you read my letter) that I'd have moved to dirt status with most ladies here.
I can't say I don't at times have pity parties for me but I think really I've had a pretty charmed life and that in the grand scheme of things it is my wife that has been short suited.
I guess I really took a bad turn with my writing and apologize for the impression it has left. I really feel lucky for the turn my life has taken in the past year - no not 100% lucky, in some areas i obviously ain't gettin' lucky at all - but overall, yeah, my life is definitely going in a much better direction.
I for one was just digesting and trying to temper (ha) my response
It sounds like you feel that you have both made a good amount of progress and that’s a good thing. You know the distance you’ve traveled better than anyone else.
Once again the abuse stands out as well as the fact that she more or less refuses to get help in that area. To me it is clearly impacting the way she relates to others.
I also have to agree with MEM on a couple counts. She may not be doing these things on purpose, consciously, but where do her complaints end? All of your posts after the response to mine illustrate an extreme control issue on her end. Frankly, she probably focused on your controlling behavior because she herself is soo controlling. imo she needs to get into individual therapy (or maybe sex therapy for both of you) as well and finally deal with this issue. If you are meeting her needs it is only fair that she meet yours. You cannot bend this statement. As long as hers are the only needs getting met, you are the only one in this marriage.
On the one hand we have “she knows she did things wrong” but on the other it’s “anything she did out of line was due to me causing it.”
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You cannot MAKE her act in any way whatsoever. She could have talked to you about the problems but instead turned to other men. Until she accepts responsibility for her actions and ends the EAs I don’t think anything you do is going to have a lasting impact. You might very well be keeping things happy and livable until she decides she’s ready to move on. I understand that you want to put everything into it and that is honorable. However, just as she is closing herself off from you emotionally I think you’re closing yourself off from the impact of the EAs.
I’m sorry that you lost your counselor, it has to be hard to start all over again. I get that the counselor saw that starting with you was the right choice, but when to begin dealing with the rest? Our counselor sort of attacked all of the areas in general and then took time to address each specifically. I know they’re all different and you can only do so much at once but without looking at the big picture you’re doing yourself a disservice.
To be honest I think the EAs were relatively borderline in the first place. Not sure if that says it really either. She definitely confided in them more that me and was sexually flirting. If there she were not married I think she would have been dating them or at least trying them out.
I did not meant to imply she was having orgasms with them but rather that she was talking about her shower time results with them after the fact - yes I would be stupid not to see that they well could have been the subject of her shower time fantasies along with Rupert Grint (a known) and others actors, musicians etc...who knows maybe she was even on her phone with them at the time and sharing in that manner...don't know. I believe that has stopped, whatever extent it was.
At any rate while she still has a huge crush on Rupert (btw - I realize girls crushes on hollywood peops should not bug me and reality has never to the extent of this one who she accredits "The most intense experience I have ever had in my life" in relation to- well that and him being just another that push that I play second fiddle to with her) I believe it has gone down and am pretty sure she has greatly reduced contact and the type of contact with the local guy. While we both know her contact with the other forum mod has not ceased nor has the sexual flirting ceased, I do believe it has greatly dropped as well.
Yes, I agree the EAs need to be ended completely...but I believe that is better approached as a component of counseling in our case as with just the two of us it gets turned on me being jealous and controlling and I don't want her to have any friends. Yes I know ...typical. And yet just because chickens "typically" cross the street doesn't mean that a ducks do not sometimes cross the street as well.
Both counselors have asked us to discuss and come up with a acceptable behaviors with members of the opposite sex kind of thing on our own. She doesn't want to on our own but may be willing with the counselor in attendance. Yet to my surprise both have treated this more like a side item that needs to be addressed relative to me having a jealousy issue (Just my take...who knows). To be fair to the both of them, the original was concentrating on communication and putting out some fires and the new one has really just got started with us.
Please don't think I am not listening or unappreciative. I guess I believe it is still worth effort and the line in the sand may not yet be needed. fwiw - I have asked our joint counselor to look at this thread.
I know for a fact that what quacks like a duck, smells like a duck etc etc may not be a duck let me give you a real example.
On morning (some time in late 2008 I think) my wife moves my jeans before I'm out of bed and a condom falls to the floor.
So lets add this up
-Condom in pants pocket
-Often works late (often arriving home at 6, 7 or 8, sometimes even later like 9 or on extreme occasions 10 instead of the possible 5:30 or so)
- Wife has not been sexually attentive since practically premarital (I'm sure in her head it wasn't that long ago but...)
So quacks like a duck,, etc etc right?
Reality is this
Jan 1st of 2008 my wife wakes and is surprisingly horny in the morning (I suspect from chatting OGs the night before but I was totally clueless back then) Very out of character she wants to be on top. She is loving it and a second condom was required...
So at the time the OG thing was not even a consideration for me, I was hoping maybe she was deciding to start the year off in a new direction with me. Well...if you look at number ans figure I counted this as 2, you know that wasn't the case.
But now I actually had kind of a thing about masturbating with condoms due to the excitement she gave me that one morning. Heck they even made for easy cleanup and ... I used to use them and watch porn after everyone was in bed.
At any rate one morning she is moving my pants and a condom falls out on the floor. (I had it ready but did not use it the night before).
She id question me immediately and I answered her immediately. Even told her if she looked in the trash cans she would find other wrappers. She did not look in the trash can but went on line and told her OGs who of course said I was a lying sack of ****. (Recently she told me she didn't look in the trash can becasue she "trusted me" OK so then why ask your OGs their opinions? - but I digress)
Quite frankly I'm pretty certain if she had come on this board and told just her "facts" many of you on here would have told her the same thing... FOR CERTAIN, there IS no other possibility, your husband without a doubt is having a sexual affair, what a load of BS he fed you. And you, like the OGs would be 100% wrong.
I will accept your forewarning, despite my diatribe I really DO appreciate it, I just ask that you are not offended if I do not appear to be listening. I am
Online bf/gf does not sound borderline to me. Neither here nor there, let’s throw out the term EA and say that it’s merely inappropriate behavior. You have found out about it, she agreed to limit contact and stop engaging in the activities you find to be inappropriate. Why go private (twitter and no more public posts on the forum) if she weren’t continuing this behavior to some extent? It might not be a duck but what else then? You previously mentioned that she may think if you don’t see it, it can’t hurt you. Trouble is that the behavior is harmful regardless of whether or not you see it. It’s harmful because she’s connecting with the OG(s) which is affecting her ability to connect with you, the one she married.
It’s very encouraging that the counselors started addressing boundaries with the opposite sex and I hope you make that conversation happen in your sessions. What I’m getting at in all of this is if she can disconnect from these other men and, more importantly, the attention they give her she might be able to connect (ignoring the abuse scenario where she is unable to do so) with and let you fulfill those needs thus giving the intimacy you both desire.
I get that you may not feel it’s time to draw a line in the sand and I might agree that it’s not until you address all issues in counseling but I think that once the boundaries are formed they need to be hard and fast boundaries, no more gray area.
I believe in her mind her excuse for going "underground" is that I had no business reading her posts on the forum or Twitter or her Myspace in the first place. I invaded her privacy by doing this.
She has called me a controlling private eye. Mind you, yes, I've did some PI work in the reacent past... but she had been on this forum since 2005 and I didn't check out her posts until my son brought something to my attention in our own home. Didn't even know she had a MySpace page at that point let alone two of them. Didn't know she had a secret email acount...didn't know she had a secter cell phone. Yet I truly would be not surprised if in her mind I am sitll a privacy invading controll freak...
No doubt the the boundary crossng and "OK behavior for her but not for me" things need addressed, counselling is still in progeress.
It is pretty clear that if she will not seek help in the sex realm tath it will probably never become better. Oddly enough, she complains we are like brother and sister not like bf/gf . The question is in 10 years I've not been important enough for her to be uncomfortable in order for this to be worked on despite her knowing and talking about it needing done for nearly the whole time. In fairness she can say she had been saying we needed to go to joint counsleing for nearly the same aount of time and I did not jump on that either...thought we could work it out on our own.
Also, I think there have been some very good suggestion about some things that make her uncomfortable ahppening a bit more often until they become more the "usual".
In the end though it will be comfortable to become more emotionally intimate to her without her taking a chance and opening up the walls abit. We are seperated by her castle walls the thickness of which is the closest we can get.
I will continue to try to fill her Emotional needs and be uplifteing and supportive despite some conjecture her. Not only is it the way I thihnk I should be and want to be but most likely the best way to help her feel safer.
Thank you everyone who has given of their time and hearts to read this novel,. And should anybody come up with any new thoughts, arguments whatever, feel free to add on.
You seem loyal, patient, tolerant (to the point of some might say bizarre) & so on... I'm wondering questions which could already have been aired. For those of us following the novel & keen to offer thoughts but with failing memory (senior, blonde, in my case!) could you provide links or let us know other threads your story's appeared in? Sorry if this sounds cynical or sarky or something, it's absolutely not meant to be. To explain, I was wondering why you got married in the first place. Why you did, why she did. Then I thought I probably could find that somewhere, if I only knew where to look!
Susan
Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know
Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.
Yes, I understand perfectly. But it's not for her to watch. It is for you. But I see you wouldn't be able to with her around, so just get the book that the movie is all about. The movie only introduces the principles in the book, but the book is the real deal.
The thing that is broken here is that you have been in a sexually impaired state from 1 year before your reception. First there was some religious reason for the 6 months prior to the ceremony and then some other unexplained reason for the next 6 months for your reception. And then technically sexless in frequency since then. THAT would make a normal man very tense and feel very unloved.
Why is it that the lions share of "fixing" the marriage is laying on you when she seems to have no desire to be honest with you about why your marriage is sexless.
I am NOT saying she should force herself to have sex with you. I AM saying she is obligated to honestly tell you WHY this marriage has been a sexual trainwreck from the moment you fully committed to her.
My guess is - the nicer/kinder/more committed you are, the more she will like you as a friend and the less desire she will feel for you. I think your ONLY hope of getting some honest answers and maybe creating some sparks is to define some boundaries along the lines of: I am glad we are making progress - soon - within 3 months we need to directly address the fact that this marriage has been sexless from the year before our engagement. Maybe you simply do not, and never really did find me attractive. If so, you need to tell me. What you cannot do is continue to construct an ever changing list of things I MUST do before you will discuss our non-sex life.
But - this all comes down to priorities. If you are comfortable meeting ALL her emotional, physical and financial needs and having her permanently ignore your sexual needs that is your choice. Not a situation I would tolerate for a short time - much less a decade - or a lifetime.
If she really is not attracted - she needs to tell you AND she needs to let you find playmates outside your marriage.
The marital commitment of sexual fidelity is directly linked to an equally great responsibility on the partners to please each other sexually. You cannot in good faith ignore your sexual responsibilities to your spouse and simultaneously demand fidelity from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMarriedGuy
WantsHappiness
I agree with you 100%.
I believe in her mind her excuse for going "underground" is that I had no business reading her posts on the forum or Twitter or her Myspace in the first place. I invaded her privacy by doing this.
She has called me a controlling private eye. Mind you, yes, I've did some PI work in the reacent past... but she had been on this forum since 2005 and I didn't check out her posts until my son brought something to my attention in our own home. Didn't even know she had a MySpace page at that point let alone two of them. Didn't know she had a secret email acount...didn't know she had a secter cell phone. Yet I truly would be not surprised if in her mind I am sitll a privacy invading controll freak...
No doubt the the boundary crossng and "OK behavior for her but not for me" things need addressed, counselling is still in progeress.
It is pretty clear that if she will not seek help in the sex realm tath it will probably never become better. Oddly enough, she complains we are like brother and sister not like bf/gf . The question is in 10 years I've not been important enough for her to be uncomfortable in order for this to be worked on despite her knowing and talking about it needing done for nearly the whole time. In fairness she can say she had been saying we needed to go to joint counsleing for nearly the same aount of time and I did not jump on that either...thought we could work it out on our own.
Also, I think there have been some very good suggestion about some things that make her uncomfortable ahppening a bit more often until they become more the "usual".
In the end though it will be comfortable to become more emotionally intimate to her without her taking a chance and opening up the walls abit. We are seperated by her castle walls the thickness of which is the closest we can get.
I will continue to try to fill her Emotional needs and be uplifteing and supportive despite some conjecture her. Not only is it the way I thihnk I should be and want to be but most likely the best way to help her feel safer.
Thank you everyone who has given of their time and hearts to read this novel,. And should anybody come up with any new thoughts, arguments whatever, feel free to add on.
No probs OMG. Emotional barriers are a bit like “house rules”. “No Smoking”, “No Drugs”, “No Stealing” that sort of thing. There are many rules for driving and so many other things but some of us don’t have rules for ourselves, emotional barriers. Without them we are at the mercy of others’ abusive behaviour.
People who’ve been abused often become abusers themselves and the only person who can change that is the abused. My wife just brought the emotionally abusive behaviour she’d learnt as a child into our marriage. It was a part of who she was at her very core, not an attitude but a trait. And the only person who can change a trait is the person who has it. To change a trait there has to be a massive need to change, there has to be a reason to change.
I’m a “big strong man” physically, it took a hell of a lot for me to accept that I was being emotionally abused. Maybe you are the same, maybe you cannot, as yet, accept that you are being emotionally abused. Our emotionally barriers are in a way how we get to know ourselves better. Unfortunately we get to know ourselves after we’ve been abused by declaring what behaviour we will no longer tolerate. “I will not tolerate lies” for example. Says a lot about ourselves that. “I need complete authenticity and fidelity in my marriage, without it I’m finished with our relationship” etc.
To understand how difficult it is to change a trait, all you need do is take a look at yourself. You’ve analysed yourself, discovered what you’d like to change and you’re going ahead with it. Not easy is it! Your wife doesn’t have a reason to change. Why? Because her life is working for her right now, she is getting what she wants out of her life, out of being alive, living.
It is easy for me to talk. I was in a somewhat similar situation to you, different reasons but it was “in my face”. At the time our two sons were under ten years old so I got through it. It’s massively different now both sons are adults, no mortgage or debt that type of thing so it’s “easy for me to talk”.
Looking back though I really wish I’d known about emotional barriers and put them up a long time ago, would have saved a lot of heartache and so much else.
Here’s a thought for you. Your wife could well be bringing up things from the past, her “resentment”, to attack you and keep you on the defensive. While you are on the defensive you are looking at your behaviour and it takes the focus off of hers. You are giving so much and getting very little back.
Here’s a question for you. Have you considered “failure” as an option? Failure in that you are never going to get what you need from your wife. If you haven’t maybe it’ll be a good thing to spend some time thinking on. What happens if you never get what you need let alone want? Do you stay? If you do what does your life look like in the future? If you leave, what does your life look like in the future?
WantsHappiness
She has called me a controlling private eye. Mind you, yes, I've did some PI work in the reacent past... but she had been on this forum since 2005 and I didn't check out her posts until my son brought something to my attention in our own home. Didn't even know she had a MySpace page at that point let alone two of them. Didn't know she had a secret email acount...didn't know she had a secter cell phone. Yet I truly would be not surprised if in her mind I am sitll a privacy invading controll freak...
I was watching a film. The husband suspected his wife was having an affair so he put a video recorder in the bedroom. Sure enough it’s all captured on tape. When his wife saw the tape she said something like “How dare you put a video recorder in the bedroom and invade my privacy!”. My jaw dropped, even more so when the husband apologised and went on the defensive.
But think about it. The way the wife handled the situation was very clever because it totally took the focus off of her adulterous behaviour. She saw nothing wrong in her behaviour, there was no guilt, no remorse and no apology. She did though see wrong in her husband’s behaviour and classified his behaviour as worse than hers. Crazy making.
Instead of changing her behaviour, your wife very cleverly has you on the defensive.
Making alist of things that are wrong nad compiling them into a very short paragraphe and read in all a bunch makes things seem much worse than they currently are.
For instance, I do fully beleive I am the number one guy in her life at this point, not really totaly on blind faith, just by the way she has been treating me on the whole. Yes there are things to refute it as well but even they may be more of a result of desiring strongly to avoid conflict (don't telling the OG agin to END the sex talk and inuendoes but simply ask him not to post them where I could see them and be offended/hurt/etc by them). I'm not saying this is OK with me, I'm not saying it will not need to be addressed, just saying 10 years of poor communication between us, really bad habits and poor assumptions of the other's intentions has left quite a bundle of garbage and poor habits that need worked through.
WE have made HUGE strides- Rome cannot be rebuilt in a day yet I agree with many of you. That these things do need handle prior to Rome being able to sparkle again. otoh if you are constantly in a state of repaitng Rome you take the chance of being sick of working on your renovation project so a nice balance of just realxing and enjoying the Rome in it's much repaired state without paying attention to the columns that you each knocked down and need fixed is a good thing.
I am much more prepared to go at problems more often, but she shutsdown, kind phases out...escapes in her head when "too much" hits her at once. Yes, THIS IS REAL not just an avoidance trick. So we need to keep maybe pace with a bit more time in between getting blisters on our hands from working than possible some other coules may.
Re: How to become more intimate? 
- but overall, yeah, my life is definitely going in a much better direction.
) & so on... I'm wondering questions which could already have been aired. For those of us following the novel & keen to offer thoughts but with failing memory (senior, blonde, in my case!) could you provide links or let us know other threads your story's appeared in? Sorry if this sounds cynical or sarky or something, it's absolutely not meant to be. To explain, I was wondering why you got married in the first place. Why you did, why she did. Then I thought I probably could find that somewhere, if I only knew where to look!
