My wife and I started working on our marriage. We have set aside Wednesday nights for a relationship talk. Each week we give each other a topic that we want each other to delve a little deeper into. This week she has asked me to look at what she considers a double standard in our communication with other people, especially of the opposite sex. She says that she lets me talk to other women and does not say anything about it. If she talks to other men I don't like it. So I will give a little background, and would appreciate any advice or insight that others may have for us.
I cheated on her previously. We have since gotten married, and had our second child. In my eyes, I need to tell her everything that I talk about with other women to make her feel comfortable with that. I am very open about the things I talk about with other people.
Part of our problems is that my wife is not open to talk about things. There was one instance when she was spending a lot of time talking to another man that I had not met. I would inquire into the nature of the relationship and she offered nothing up. I started to snoop around, and found out that she was hiding how often she was talking to him. I told her that it made me uncomfortable, and that turned into a huge fight. She now takes me asking about what she talks about as a sign that I don't trust her.
After joining this site, I read a lot about emotional affairs. I didn't have any knowledge of that before. I now know that it was emotional affairs I was concerned with. She was introducing new male friends into her life while our marriage was rocky, and wouldn't talk about the nature of those relationships. The more I pressed for information, the more she withdrew.
She wants to feel comfortable talking to other men and not have me get angry about it. I will feel comfortable with her talking to new male friends if it was open, and they were friends for both of us. My women friends are our friends. Her male friends are her friends.
How do successful couples handle these kind of situations. We both want to have new friends, and branch out some.
This is a matter of trust. She should be able to have her friends too. However it needs to be an open communication in such a way that it breeds trust. Additionally, you need to drop the double standard/jealously. I think it is great that you are working on your communication, I hope this improves things.
This is a matter of trust. She should be able to have her friends too. However it needs to be an open communication in such a way that it breeds trust. Additionally, you need to drop the double standard/jealously. I think it is great that you are working on your communication, I hope this improves things.
draconis
While I appreciate your post, I was seeking some insight. We both know that we each should have friends and there should be more trust and communication. My questions were geared towards what others do.
I would say I have had ten years of a successful marriage. My wife has many male friends outside of my circle of friends. She also communicates with many guys on WOW through messaging and voice chat.
The point is that you either feel like you can trust her or you don't. If you feel like you can't then is it worth throwing away your marriage for jealousy and/or guilt?
I think it is less about what we do than how we feel towards each other. In the end communication is the most important thing. You need to set boundries you both feel comfortable with.
I would say I have had ten years of a successful marriage. My wife has many male friends outside of my circle of friends. She also communicates with many guys on WOW through messaging and voice chat.
The point is that you either feel like you can trust her or you don't. If you feel like you can't then is it worth throwing away your marriage for jealousy and/or guilt?
I think it is less about what we do than how we feel towards each other. In the end communication is the most important thing. You need to set boundries you both feel comfortable with.
draconis
The reason I made the post is because we are going to talk about this issue on Wednesday, and I would like to have a better understanding of what I need from her in relation to her outside friends.
I don't think I am bound by jealousy, and didn't use to be like this. Over time communication has slipped, and that is something we are working on.
What kind of boundries do you have in place for this?
Other then hugging any other physical contact is a no-no. Hugging is normally only after the spouce has met the person. I have asked her not to hug one of her male friends because I have seen how this guy is and he goes way beyond what I feel comfortable with (not with my wife but with other married or dating woman.) I asked her if woman ex did that with me how would she feel. She understood and has since distanced herself from that one guy although she still has many male friends she understood why I felt uncomfortable with just this one guy.
Further, We set a limit on flirting. Generally if you can't do it infront of the other then it isn't right. Also since I IM people a lot of people I save all my IMs and my accounts and passwords are saved on the computer, her IMs are within the game of WOW so without a keylogger on the computer she can't save hers.
By the way she is the flirt not me, but she isn't that bad. It took time for me to show her what she did that upset me, and reversed the question on her when girls flirted with me and she became jealous.
Anyways, No real touching other then hugs. No dancing without asking first and no slow dancing. Open computers. Limit flirting. An introduction to friends when possible.
Instead of focusing on a particular man in question, have you asked her what types of things she talks about with her male friends? I would think without her delving into the details of every conversation that it would be fair enough for you to ask in a general sense if that would give you some level of comfort that it's on the up and up and then just trust her from there. As far as boundaries, I think any conversation I have with a man that I would not have w/o my husband there is crossing a boundary. I know this is different for different people/reasons but maybe you just need to lay out what types of things would bother you and why (ie if you talk to a male friend about our marital problems I fear you may become emotionally attached to him and drive us further apart)...If you both open this up for discussion, you'll probably find a compromise that you are both comfortable with.
Instead of focusing on a particular man in question, have you asked her what types of things she talks about with her male friends? I would think without her delving into the details of every conversation that it would be fair enough for you to ask in a general sense if that would give you some level of comfort that it's on the up and up and then just trust her from there. As far as boundaries, I think any conversation I have with a man that I would not have w/o my husband there is crossing a boundary. I know this is different for different people/reasons but maybe you just need to lay out what types of things would bother you and why (ie if you talk to a male friend about our marital problems I fear you may become emotionally attached to him and drive us further apart)...If you both open this up for discussion, you'll probably find a compromise that you are both comfortable with.
The problem lies with delving for details on my end. I would try and get a sense of her new friends, and she would not give me any information. As time would go on, she would be willing to give me less and less. In turn I would press harder. I know this behavior was not good. I think I would react better if she were more forthcoming with some kind of an idea about what they talked about.
Other then hugging any other physical contact is a no-no. Hugging is normally only after the spouce has met the person. I have asked her not to hug one of her male friends because I have seen how this guy is and he goes way beyond what I feel comfortable with (not with my wife but with other married or dating woman.) I asked her if woman ex did that with me how would she feel. She understood and has since distanced herself from that one guy although she still has many male friends she understood why I felt uncomfortable with just this one guy.
This is ideally where we both hope to get.
Further, We set a limit on flirting. Generally if you can't do it infront of the other then it isn't right. Also since I IM people a lot of people I save all my IMs and my accounts and passwords are saved on the computer, her IMs are within the game of WOW so without a keylogger on the computer she can't save hers.
By the way she is the flirt not me, but she isn't that bad. It took time for me to show her what she did that upset me, and reversed the question on her when girls flirted with me and she became jealous.
I am more of a flirt than she is for sure. Without putting words in her mouth, I assume she is more accepting of me flirting than I am with her. My issue is that I really don't have any idea how she talks or acts around others because she wont give me any insight.
Anyways, No real touching other then hugs. No dancing without asking first and no slow dancing. Open computers. Limit flirting. An introduction to friends when possible.
Since this is your weekly task and Wednesday is sort of your review, you need to show her that you have really thought it through and understand where she is coming from. This is one of the first things she wants you to work on, so it is obviously very important to her. My gut tells me you have nothing to worry about with her and other men. You just need to back off a bit. That said, this is a HUGE issue for both of you. This is practically a deal blocker and I think both of you really need to come up with an agreement and understanding your are both comfortable with before moving on to the next things on your lists.
Tell her that you can be ok with her have friends that are men without you checking up on her. This shows her you recognize the magnitude of the issue with her and are resolved to meet this need and show her your trust. Also, and this is critical. Stop flirting. Period. Find out from her what she wants you to stop. And I mean everything including what she would prefer you not do, but puts up with. It's disrespectful to your wife and, I would at least hope, completely unnecessary for you. If it is necessary, I would like to know why.
But also let her know that for you to accept her having relationships with men you don't know, she has work to do as well. Postpone the thing you were thinking about asking her to work on next and make it this instead. I assume you've already explained the concept of EA to her. She needs understand that even the most innocent people can find themselves emotional attached to someone else almost without realizing it. Simply initiating conversations with you about what she does with them and what they talk about minimizes that risk. Also, explain to her that you are not jealous that she has friends who are men, but that it's only when she doesn't talk about them that your restless mind starts making up things. Perception can be as damaging as reality and even the closest and most trusting of couples can fear things they have no need to when there isn't communication.
In order for you being ok with her having male friends and not having you ask her about them all the time, what you need in turn is for her to talk about them herself without your prompting. If she is having a hard time talking about them for any reason, she should explain why, and you need to work on a plan together that gets her comfortable with it.
There is one other thing I would consider. Make your list of boundaries you require. Draconis has a pretty good one, but each individual has their own comfort level. Have her read over them with you and promise you that if for any reason she feels like one of them even might be in threat of being crossed, to come to you to talk about it first and give the two of you a chance to address the issue before it becomes one. If she can promise you that, promise her she has your trust. A brief example of mine would be:
No flirting (innocent or otherwise - YOU TOO)
No touching hands or each other - for me even a hello hug is beyond my comfort zone.
No talking about initimate things (like your love life)
No discussing anything personal that you have not or cannot talk about with each other.
That last is very similar to what Swedish pointed out, and it's a biggy. If there is something she feels she can talk about or enjoy with another man that she can't with you, that is crossing the line and is a strong basis for an EA and a major threat to your marriage. You need to find those things out from her in as much detail as you can. If there is something, work on it, right away, no matter how trivial the issue might seem.
You need to say: Treat me like a good friend (man or woman) who does not know your husband. Know that for the next half hour (or whatever) you can say anything and everything to me and I will never hold a single thing against you. I will not judge, I will not interrupt, and if it's about me, I will not defend myself. I am right now listening only, and I want you to start small and just tell me every single thing you can think of that you have or might say with someone else that you have not been able to say to me or are not sure you can.
Now...possible ideas for her to build your comfort:
Maybe ask her to just this one time to list all of the guys she considers friends that you don't personally know, have her give you a brief bio of who they are and what she talks to them about.
Maybe ask that she makes an effort to slowly find ways to introduce you to them somehow. Stress that you aren't not trying to always be around when they are, but that you just need to be given a chance to get to know them just a little and feel comfortable with what it's like between her and them when they talk.
Maybe you promise not bring up a single guy friend for a few weeks (or whatever) and ask in turn that every time she talks with any of them to just mention it to you and give you a brief recap on what they talked about. This gets her used to talking to you about them without your bothering her. Explain you're not expecting her to tell you about every conversation forever, but it's just as an exercise for her to learn how to be comfortable talking to you about them and show that you guys can do this without you getting angry.
Similarly, if she spends time emailing any of them, maybe she would be willing to forward you all or some of the emails she sends/receives from them for the next couple weeks. Tell her it's only for this specific time limit and not about invading her privacy, but just so that you can have a fair understanding of what they chat about. (I don't recommend bring this up with her right now, but personally, my wife and I have always had the same passwords for our emails. I don't think she ever goes into mine, and never read hers unless she needs me to, but emails are such an easy source for hidden secrets, negating that secrecy just in theory makes our trust and comfort with each other even stronger, not weaker.
Since this is your weekly task and Wednesday is sort of your review, you need to show her that you have really thought it through and understand where she is coming from. This is one of the first things she wants you to work on, so it is obviously very important to her. My gut tells me you have nothing to worry about with her and other men. You just need to back off a bit. That said, this is a HUGE issue for both of you. This is practically a deal blocker and I think both of you really need to come up with an agreement and understanding your are both comfortable with before moving on to the next things on your lists.First thank you for an amazing post. It was thoughtful and insightful. I don't think I have anything to worry about either. You are absolutely correct I need to back off a bit. This is a topic that has come up a few times but never resolved.
Tell her that you can be ok with her have friends that are men without you checking up on her. This shows her you recognize the magnitude of the issue with her and are resolved to meet this need and show her your trust. Also, and this is critical. Stop flirting. Period. Find out from her what she wants you to stop. And I mean everything including what she would prefer you not do, but puts up with. It's disrespectful to your wife and, I would at least hope, completely unnecessary for you. If it is necessary, I would like to know why. I didn't think I was a flirt. When I made the comment earlier, I was referring to a comment she made that I encouraged a certain female we know to flirt with me. I don't think that I flirt with other women, and this is something I will clairify with her on Wednesday. It is not something I need to do, or anything like that. I would put more effort into noticing those behaviors if she thinks that is what is happening.
But also let her know that for you to accept her having relationships with men you don't know, she has work to do as well. Postpone the thing you were thinking about asking her to work on next and make it this instead. I assume you've already explained the concept of EA to her. She needs understand that even the most innocent people can find themselves emotional attached to someone else almost without realizing it. Simply initiating conversations with you about what she does with them and what they talk about minimizes that risk. Also, explain to her that you are not jealous that she has friends who are men, but that it's only when she doesn't talk about them that your restless mind starts making up things. Perception can be as damaging as reality and even the closest and most trusting of couples can fear things they have no need to when there isn't communication. I think this is a very good idea. I haven't always been this way, and it is frustrating for me as well. You really hit my problem on the restless mind statement. When my mind is left to wonder, I always come up with the worst case senario. If I had some kind of knowledge, I don't think it would be like that.
In order for you being ok with her having male friends and not having you ask her about them all the time, what you need in turn is for her to talk about them herself without your prompting. If she is having a hard time talking about them for any reason, she should explain why, and you need to work on a plan together that gets her comfortable with it.
There is one other thing I would consider. Make your list of boundaries you require. Draconis has a pretty good one, but each individual has their own comfort level. Have her read over them with you and promise you that if for any reason she feels like one of them even might be in threat of being crossed, to come to you to talk about it first and give the two of you a chance to address the issue before it becomes one. If she can promise you that, promise her she has your trust. A brief example of mine would be: I am going to use the suggestion to make a list of what we are both uncomfortable with. I think that is only fair for each of us. Again, great suggestion. Thank you so much!
No flirting (innocent or otherwise - YOU TOO)
No touching hands or each other - for me even a hello hug is beyond my comfort zone.
No talking about initimate things (like your love life)
No discussing anything personal that you have not or cannot talk about with each other.
That last is very similar to what Swedish pointed out, and it's a biggy. If there is something she feels she can talk about or enjoy with another man that she can't with you, that is crossing the line and is a strong basis for an EA and a major threat to your marriage. You need to find those things out from her in as much detail as you can. If there is something, work on it, right away, no matter how trivial the issue might seem. Here I think that she wants to have friendships with other men, but doesn't want to rock the boat by doing so. Which is terribly unfair. I would be comfortable with that if we had a better foundation of communication. I think that as our marriage gets stronger, I will have no problem with this.
You need to say: Treat me like a good friend (man or woman) who does not know your husband. Know that for the next half hour (or whatever) you can say anything and everything to me and I will never hold a single thing against you. I will not judge, I will not interrupt, and if it's about me, I will not defend myself. I am right now listening only, and I want you to start small and just tell me every single thing you can think of that you have or might say with someone else that you have not been able to say to me or are not sure you can.
Now...possible ideas for her to build your comfort:
Maybe ask her to just this one time to list all of the guys she considers friends that you don't personally know, have her give you a brief bio of who they are and what she talks to them about.
Maybe ask that she makes an effort to slowly find ways to introduce you to them somehow. Stress that you aren't not trying to always be around when they are, but that you just need to be given a chance to get to know them just a little and feel comfortable with what it's like between her and them when they talk.
Maybe you promise not bring up a single guy friend for a few weeks (or whatever) and ask in turn that every time she talks with any of them to just mention it to you and give you a brief recap on what they talked about. This gets her used to talking to you about them without your bothering her. Explain you're not expecting her to tell you about every conversation forever, but it's just as an exercise for her to learn how to be comfortable talking to you about them and show that you guys can do this without you getting angry.
Similarly, if she spends time emailing any of them, maybe she would be willing to forward you all or some of the emails she sends/receives from them for the next couple weeks. Tell her it's only for this specific time limit and not about invading her privacy, but just so that you can have a fair understanding of what they chat about. (I don't recommend bring this up with her right now, but personally, my wife and I have always had the same passwords for our emails. I don't think she ever goes into mine, and never read hers unless she needs me to, but emails are such an easy source for hidden secrets, negating that secrecy just in theory makes our trust and comfort with each other even stronger, not weaker.
Again, thank you so much for your post. People like you make it so much easier to work through problems.
Just a little update here. After our conversation, I think we both understand a little more about this on both sides. She understands the need for her to communicate the nature of her new friendships to me, and I know that I can't push so hard for information about it. We are starting to see a lot more that one behavior encourages the other, and a terrible cycle has occurred. I think that understanding our own behaviors, and knowing what effect it's having is important on changing. We are also going to write down our expectations for each other on what we need to know from the other. I found out I give her too much info, which will be tough for me at first to hold back and not give.
Thanks for everyone's input!
Last edited by Dancing Nancie; 07-18-2008 at 12:27 PM.
New friends and jealousy
