Justin123

Some of the reasons you mention most people would probably NOT admit to anyway (e.g. "I want to spend your money")... I truly think her reasons are the following based on earlier conversations:
- "That's just the way it's done. Our parents did it this way. Everyone I know did it this way."
- "It's our money together. Not yours or mine."
- she has personal experience with combining money with someone and they supported each other at different times as needed
- she wants to stay home with kids for some time (don't know exactly how long). I am fine with this one and can work longer for it.

Some of your other questions:
- yes, kids would be good
- pre-nup was not discussed - what's the point if she feels everything has to be combined anyway? I don't think we are at the point of discussing pre-nups for "bad futures" if we can't agree yet on the "good future"
- rules for managing money - she believes we will just decide together on what's reasonable to spend and go with that adapting as needed.

greeneyeddolphin

What I meant by not considering them valid options was...well, I guess I was trying to say that if you truly loved her and really wanted to marry her and had no doubts, you would consider working longer, or other options, as options because you love her and you want to be with her. Or you would feel that you could tell her you wanted separate finances without fear or her anger or whatever. If that makes sense.

It's kind of like...well, my boyfriend is the only one who works in our relationship. I stay home with the kids. Although this was not necessarily what I was looking for, I love the situation as it is, as does he. But, if he came to me and told me that he didn't want to be the sole income anymore and wanted me to work, although I would be somewhat disappointed, I would go back to work because it would make him happy, instead of going looking for someone else who might let me stay home with the kids. And I'd rather be with him in a less than ideal situation than with anyone else in an perfect circumstance.

I don't know if I'm making sense or not here. I've been up with the kids very early the last couple of days, and I stay up way too late at night. So my brain may have gone on vacation and I'm speaking gibberish here. Please don't hold it against me.

__________________
Wendy

www.wendymillerwrites.com

lime

It's interesting that you're ok with her staying at home with the kids, but not ok with sharing money? How will she have enough to retire if she's home with the kids, not working? How will she buy groceries--will you just have a separate checking account for her that you put a little money in each week? I'm just confused as to how that situation would work.

Also I'm interested in your attitude towards working--do you enjoy your job? Or do you view it as simply a way to make money so that you can do other things you enjoy? Do you find it fulfilling? Like atruckersgirl said, you would consider other options if you had no doubts about wanting to marry her. To me, it seems like you are happy with the relationship, but perhaps you hate working more than you love her? If you are so keen on retiring early, it feels like your job must be pretty stressful or demanding or just downright awful. Can you not cut back to part-time?

lime

Oh yea--and if you want one parent home with the kids, couldn't you stay home if you're going to be retired? Or does she want to be the one to stay home?

Ironsides

I feel like a lot of comments in these kinds of forums tend to get off topic, so I will just try to directly answer your question as you asked it.

My advice is that you quit your current job and find another that you find more bearable, and maybe even enjoy.

This will keep you out of the house, preventing some of the "I work all day and all you do is golf" resentment that you might otherwise face.

This job will keep you occupied 20-30 hours per week so you continue to appreciate your hobbies and leisure as much as you do now. Full-time leisure sounds great, and it sounds like you've done your share of hard work in your life, but I know at least for me my free time is all the sweeter if I have some work to compare it to.

The job will also provide you with an income. You mentioned that your interest income stream will be small, so presumably a part-time, mostly-for-fun job will give you enough income to match that interest income and thus cover your expenses.

You can then either allow your savings to compound or use the interest to make worthy investments or purchases, like saving for your kids' college education, supporting your wife when she stays at home, or subsidizing your wife's retirement savings so you can both retire a little earlier.

Since you are clearly a smart guy and have planned well financially so far, I assume you are making responsible and smart choices about what your "expenses" include. Hopefully they include your share of the mortgage, utilities, kids' college savings, etc. Make sure you discuss these with your partner and that you both have realistic expectations.

You mentioned that your hobbies are not employable, but I'm sure there are some professions that you could get something in related fields. Like cars? Sell them or write freelance for a car magazine. Like reading? Work in a book shop. Just be creative. Now is the time to look at all those jobs you thought were stupid in high school because you wouldn't make any money, even if they were fun. You can even start your own business in a field you love, but this is obviously financially riskier and more stressful.

If you don't hate the content of your current job, just its rat race aspect, consider doing the same kind of work as a consultant or for a smaller, lower pressure company. If you are an accountant, for instance, consider doing accounting for a local start up part-time. This will get you near-career hourly wage rates with much lower stress.

You could even work for a charity, trading lower pay for more good feelings, less resentment from partner about working part-time, and very low stress levels.

You could even work for a company involved in a hobby of yours, or even a charity involved in a hobby of yours for the best of all worlds.

But the most important thing is to be clear, honest, and open with your partner. You are perfectly justified in wanting to enjoy the fruits of your labor, but marriage is in large part about compromise. In contrast to what some people will want you to believe, "compromise" does not mean "give up your financially-oriented hopes and dreams for an idealized version of a 1950s style touchy-feely family." You should want to have a happy family and to make your partner feel loved and truly a partner, but it's okay to want to not have to work so darn hard anymore. I think the solution I put above will let you accomplish both, but you need to make sure you two are both okay with it. Think about what truly makes you both happy, and do your best to achieve that for each other.

MEM11363

J,
This "can" work but only if BOTH of you are willing to change your mindsets a LOT. While its true opposites attract, they often make each other miserable.

Does she expect her standard of living to change once you two are married? If so, how? How would she feel about a budget that creates a high savings rate?

By the way the whole "we should do it because everyone else does" is a totally flawed argument.
1. Prior generations had lower divorce rates and frankly the "modern" woman has MUCH higher relationship expectations than her mother did.
2. People very often make specific financial agreements prior to marriage when one of them has much more money.

Do NOT underestimate the fact that she may "love you" but not be "in love with you". Some women can really make that work. My mother did. She loved Dad and so she made the effort to be a good wife. And vice versa. In todays world many many women see sex as totally optional in their marriage. Are you going to be ok with that? Meaning a scenario where she turns into a massively expensive roommate.

BTW - I would say the exact same thing were you a woman and she a man. Women sometimes marry the "financially safe" guy, proceed to get bored and restless and ....no sex....well at least not for you - and a marked lack of respect in general.

By the way if you don't understand the clear link between sex and money you should think about it for a while.

My W and I are together 21 years. We had some tough situations that got resolved nicely - but the glue during those times was largely "money that I provided" and "sex that she provided". We were both generous with what we gave.

Justin123

@lime: let me clarify about me being OK with her staying with the kids (say for a year?) - what I meant was I would be ok to pay to the joint account 100% during that time. After that, I could clearly take on more of baby-sitting responsibilities, e.g. while she is at work... Maybe if baby-sitting turns out too hard, I'll be happy to have a job? :-) Or, we could hire a baby-sitter just like any other family, depending on how things are going by that time. As for groceries and other shared expenses, that's easy - joint account for shared expenses will be used for any such payments.

@Ironsides: thank you for your thorough response. I feel I may have to think hard about it, even though I'd rather not look for this kind of work (well, I don't mind looking, I just could not think of a satisfying job so far, which could come close to me enjoying my hobbies)... 2 comments:
- it's not that easy to find a job related to the hobbies - e.g. in your reading example - yes, one of my hobbies is to read, but realistically, noone will pay me to sit at the bookstore to read, I'd rather read at home or outside and not in a bookstore, and finally, I am not interested in any other bookstore "job" aspects... So even though the two are related, one is job to get money and the other is really what I would have liked to do instead... I come to the same kind of comparison for my other hobbies.
- even if I did find some part-time enjoyable work, same question remains with her potentially feeling / thinking "why he is working few hours a week for this small-pay job and having fun, while I work my butt off at this hard job"?... assuming the money is combined / all ours / etc...

@MEM11363: If I were shopping just for sex, I could find it much cheaper than 10-15 years worth of work. So, if I follow what you are saying, no, I don't believe sex is the main reason to get married. At least not for me.

lime

This makes sense to me now. The only thing would be that if she wanted to stay home for more than 1 year, she would be sacrificing the ability to put money into her retirement account (and any employer match programs) so that might be something else you would need to help with--or she would have to work that much longer before retiring. If you were to stay at home with the kids--and we already know you're not a traditionalist --there wouldn't be this weird issue.

You didn't answer my other questions about your happiness with your current job--do you really hate it? Or do you just really value your free time? Do you view your job as fulfilling, or just a way to make money to fund other fulfilling things that you enjoy? Also, out of curiosity, what are your hobbies?

Like others have said, you're not following the typical "man provides" kind of scenario and I think that's ok. But what I really just don't know after looking over this stuff again is whether or not you've talked to your partner about this? Have you mentioned you want to retire early and live off of your interest and not work? Is she ok with that? So far it just seems like you're worried that she will feel jealous of you sitting around all day. But you need to actually talk to her if you haven't already--she could feel this way, OR she might be 100% on board with you not working. If she's ok with the setup (you contribute whatever interest you earn, while she contributes her income minus her own retirement savings), then I don't see what's so wrong with having joint everything. As long as she respects the budget you have set up for yourself, everything should work out. It should work out too if you have separate everything, but I feel like sharing engenders more trust and more responsibility--that's just a personal opinion though.

Have you planned for college for potential kids? How would you be paying for that--do you have enough savings or would you rely on your future wife to save for them? Or make them pay on their own? Unfortunately, not working means that you'll either need savings, or you'll have to dip into your retirement which will really hurt the interest.

MEM11363

J,
I have no desire to offend you - simply suggest you ask yourself a question. Do you have some idea how much she is into you - separate from the financial security you offer.

As for sex - well it is strikingly similar in many regards to money. When there is a plentiful supply of it and when your higher income partner is generous in how they share, it is a non-issue. When in tight supply or when you feel your partner is being "controlling/cheap" it becomes a constant source of friction. Which is why financial issues are the largest single cause of divorce.

Same thing with sex. There is a reason for the saying: "when it is good, sex is 10% of the relationship - when it is bad it becomes 90% of the relationship.

One thing is almost a certainty. Unless a woman is totally in love with you - just you - not you as a provider - there is no chance in hell of a marriage surviving where the operating model is you are mostly/totally retired and she is working full time for a decade or two. She will resent you and it will eat away at the marriage like acid.

While it may be possible for you to find someone who is so crazy about you that they will be happy supporting your "plan"
she clearly doesn't fall into that category based on her comments to date.

In fact she may secretly hope that after having a child or two she can persuade you to work full time while she raises them full time and does not work outside the home.

As for how she treats you - be very, very observant. She is in the process of negotiating the rest of her life. If she is a very direct person - like my W is - what you get now will be what you get after the wedding. If however she is not so direct you may find that her post wedding behavior slowly and steadily changes in a manner that you are surprised by. A lot of that may be driven by how her parents interact/ed and how she believes a marriage "should" work.

If her parents have a happy, mutually respectful marriage that is a good sign.

Justin123

I am not sure I follow this, and I would really like to understand the sentence above! If everything is combined, then there is no longer interest that "I" earn, it's only interest that "WE" earn. It would be impossible to separate interest coming from my money vs hers because it would all be mixed. So, I don't see how I could then claim or view which part of interest is attributed to me, thus allowing me to not work.... ???

I realize I did not answer some of your questions - it's because I don't want to get off topic here, which would be too easy to do. That's why I don't go into what my hobbies are or whether I hate my job or just like not having it that much more - either way, I clearly have a strong preference for not working over working :-) (plus it is possible that it would be harder for me to even have work later on due to my kind of work potentially going overseas - but again, I'd rather not get side-tracked)

I talked to her about my plans to a degree, but I don't think she believed me I could do this, and in any case she is kind of stuck on the concept of NOT combining everything.

And yes, I also understand that the plan assumes I will take care of my half of all expenses, including kids college, etc.

@MEM11363: You did not offend me. Yes, I think she is into me, but I suppose there is a chance I could be wrong too, given these latest discussions.

lime

Right, I think what I meant was, YES the interest is what the both of you will earn if you put the account under two names. And that gets thrown into the pot along with the income from her job, which also is shared completely between the two of you. She won't marry you and all of a sudden think, "Hey! Now I'm contributing half of that interest, because half of those savings are mine!" (at least I hope she won't think that way! She didn't earn all that money in the first place, and she will remember that you contributed all those savings to the marriage). The more logical line of thought is, "Hey! Now my husband is sharing his hard-earned savings with me, and the interest earned helps us support ourselves. I am so appreciative that he worked so hard!" Obviously you will need to talk to her to see what she actually thinks. If you're hung up on the fact that they will be her savings too, just remember that each of you makes a contribution to the marriage: she brings money in every month (that becomes money for the BOTH of you immediately!) while you brought in a lot of money right at the beginning of the marriage, whose interest is technically still "your" contribution each month.

chillymorn

Very interesting thread.
If it were me I would stick to my plan of retireing early and if she was a ***** about it then I would look for someone else that was like minded in regards to finanical security.

Time is the most valuable asset we have and if you can retire early and have more time for family and hobbies then I say go for it.

sounds like she will be resentfull if you do.

It seems to me that she might have an idea that she should stay home and you should continue to work and suport a family. some women have the idea of whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine.

I'd look for someone else this sound like a warning flag to me.

If it walks like a duck then most likley it a duck!!!!!!!!!!

I think she should be happy for you and maybe come up with a game plan to save really hard so you both could retier early.You might have to work a little longer but it would be worth it if she balks at that idea then you to are not a very good match in regards to money