General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Hi folks, I am in a serious (but quite possibly breaking-down) relationship where we cannot agree about how to handle finances. I am thinking of "early retiring" in 5 years since I will have saved enough money to do so, but this will realistically only cover my expenses, not both of ours. I've worked on this goal for a long time and can't wait to quit the rat race. Her financial situation is very different - she is a giver (one of the reasons I love her), but this also means she has only small savings and if she stayed alone, she would have to continue working for at least the next 30-40 years before thinking about retiring.
She wants to combine everything and can't imagine world otherwise. Everything is "ours" in her world. I like the idea but...
In my mind, if we combine everything, how can I possibly stop working in 5 years when the combined amount won't be nearly enough for the two of us? I feel like I have to make a choice between marriage and working for 10-15 extra years OR a break up... If everything were "ours", I can just imagine her thinking why is he not working and just relaxing while I have work?
My savings are an asset that will generate an income stream, which might be small, but definitely enough to cover my expenses. I've earned and saved enough for this goal... So do you think it's fair and reasonable of her to expect me to work for another decade or two?
What if I were already retired and was already living off of my investments? Should I then start working in order to marry her?
I can't come up with a good way of combining money in this situation in such a way that she would not feel resentful that I am not working and I would not feel guilty for enjoying the product of my labor, which I certainly plan on doing if I remain single...
Let's just say something happens to you. Accident, disease or something life changing. You're okay with her tossing you away when you can't take care of yourself?
Or she decides one day that she wants to spend time in Italy, this year, France the next, and so on, and has grown her career to support it. Maybe if you can't afford it, would you be willing to let her go with someone who can?
Seriously, you should probably look for someone financially independent.
Some people marry for intangibles, like partnership and growing together, which add up to offset quite a few tangible assets.
Not trying to be sarcastic, but if you take your idea to its logical conclusion, you'll possibly find yourself at odds with a large majority of women.
You're probably just not compatible enough. I'm all about the early retirement. Luckily, so is my husband and we're both savers.
But, I agree with you - wouldn't be comfortable carrying someone along after all that saving. There are certainly couples where one is retired and one continues to work. How far apart are your ages? I think this quite a different situation than the typical of both being young and broke and combine everything then.
But I don't think like the average person.
You might want to check out this forum too, for the financial and retirement side of things more.
I'm kinda getting a sense the reason you don't want to combine everything is because she is a giver(not really sure what that means since it has caused her to have a smaller savings) and will deplete your savings faster, whether you were supporting her or not.
The main confusion though is being caused by you not only trying to plan a retirement for her but by trying to intertwine the plan with yours. It almost never works, there are too many variables.
In the long run I believe you are over-thinking this, you two love each other I say go for it.
You obviously have a handle on your finances and have full intentions of setting limitations on spending. So set them and stick to them as you have planned and enjoy your lives together.
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"Cooking is like love. It should be entered into with abandon or not at all." -Harriet Van Horne
I'm kinda getting a sense the reason you don't want to combine everything is because she is a giver(not really sure what that means since it has caused her to have a smaller savings) and will deplete your savings faster, whether you were supporting her or not.
The main confusion though is being caused by you not only trying to plan a retirement for her but by trying to intertwine the plan with yours. It almost never works, there are too many variables.
In the long run I believe you are over-thinking this, you two love each other I say go for it.
You obviously have a handle on your finances and have full intentions of setting limitations on spending. So set them and stick to them as you have planned and enjoy your lives together.
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"Cooking is like love. It should be entered into with abandon or not at all." -Harriet Van Horne
I agree....if you love each other....stay together but make sure that she gets a handle on the "giving"....
Kinda have a similar situation with my husband....he is a saver and I'm a "giver" and he decided to divorce me
Thank you for the responses so far. Please keep them coming. My responses are below.
@chefmaster: Sorry, I don't subscribe to your philosophy about men who are "supposed to" provide for their women. I understand that many people do however, and that's OK with me. In many societies there is no other way in fact due to the (lack of) rights / opportunities and cultural pressures on the women. You did not offend me. I am just not looking for a housewife though. To answer your other questions, I am indeed happy with her when it comes to most other things, just like she is happy with me in most other things.
@takris: No, I would not be OK with her tossing me out, just like if something happened to her I would not toss her out either, but would then try to find a way around it - and indeed go back to work if that's what it takes. But it's one thing when your spouse gets disabled, and another when you are expected to carry both just in order to be in a relationship.
For your other example, if she wants to do something together that I cannot afford, then either she will sponsor it or I will not be able to go. Same applies in reverse. If I wanted to do something and she does not feel like she wants to spend the money for it, I would have to make the same choice. These choices are no different from whether I work or I don't. Either way, we may disagree on whether we can or cannot afford something, and at least if we have separate finances, one may decide to "sponsor" the other as another option.
You are absolutely right in that I will find myself at odds with a large majority of women.
@Dale&Alex: yes, I can see myself not working anymore at all. I have more than enough hobbies that entertain me and will keep me busy. Unfortunately, I could not get paid to do them.
@Chelhxi: thanks for understanding. I am hoping there is some solution though... :-\ We are not that far apart in our ages (I am about 4-5 years older). And yes, it's much easier to combine finances when two people are in similar situations and have similar financial approaches to life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefmaster
In the long run I believe you are over-thinking this, you two love each other I say go for it.
You obviously have a handle on your finances and have full intentions of setting limitations on spending. So set them and stick to them as you have planned and enjoy your lives together.
I think you are saying "go for it" meaning I should just forget about my financial goals (or at least set them aside for another 10-15 years)... ? Setting spending limits, or rather (painfully?) negotiating them under combined finances, would not make things happen faster than working another 10-15 years for me, since I would need to build up savings for her, even if she spent the same way I do.
The point I was trying to make without offending others is that if you read modern studies of women and marriage, you'll find that after about 15 to 20 years, many women will say that their life is made harder by having a man around. Some would not do it if they could have a choice. The only thing that keeps them there are the intangibles, the lifestyle available with merging incomes and financial security. You're removing a couple of these, in a sense. She might tell you one thing now, but will be highly likely to say another thing in a few years after her friends brag about their lifestyle.
She wants to combine everything and can't imagine world otherwise. Everything is "ours" in her world. I like the idea but...
I think this is a REASONABLE expectation when you marry and more so, IF she is good with money, frugal and a Saver. If she is NOT, then I understand your concern. Even some marraiges are fine with keeping it separate if they both work and dont agree on spending habits.
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Originally Posted by Justin123
I feel like I have to make a choice between marriage and working for 10-15 extra years OR a break up...
It really does come down to what YOU want MORE >> is retiring more important to you or this woman and your Love for her , a marraige ?? Money or companionship. If you can not do a compromise and this will eat at her, you may have to make this hard choice.
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Originally Posted by Justin123
... So do you think it's fair and reasonable of her to expect me to work for another decade or two?
You don't feel it is fair & reasonable (at this point anyway), and if you feel very very strongly about this, she needs to know. You don't want to go into a marraige having resentment that you MUST keep working.
If your love is SO much for her, you would not likely feel this. Some men would climb mountains for their women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin123
What if I were already retired and was already living off of my investments? Should I then start working in order to marry her??
I think you need to decide what you REALLY want here, the single carefree life or Marraige with this woman, as it sounds if you choose marraige, the working will likely need to continue. You have already admitted as much.
If you want to continue with the relationship then, you need some agreement in terms of money. It sounds like all money combined would not work for you, and completely separate would not work for her. There should be a compromise available. Personally, my husband and I do completely separate, but for various reasons that works for us very well right now, but is not for everyone, and probably won't continue to the end.
So, could you compromise on having joint and separate accounts? You both agree what $ or % you both contribute to the joint household and then do what you will with the remainder? Do you live together yet? I found that after marriage, splitting expenses 50/50 my personal expenses were a bit less than before marriage, so it helps with the early retirement. For husband, his are a bit higher, but he went from bachelor apartment to 2 bedroom, while I went from house to apartment.
So you might have to work a bit longer if you marry, but it shouldn't change things that much for you. The problems would be if she insisted on completely joint or had a big problem with you not working while she was. H and I agree that as long as the other person is still contributing their 50%, they can work or not work as they see fit. We're still in the accumulation phase though, both reasonably healthy and with similar income potentials, so that helps.
We have completely combined finances, it's what works for us, for various reasons, one of which being that he works over the road and this is easier than him trying to find time to transfer money to a joint account so I can make sure the bills get paid.
However, when we first began discussing living together and finances, a method he had used in the past was to have separate accounts as well as a joint account. Each person would contribute to the joint account based on what was needed to pay the bills and their income. I don't remember exactly how it worked exactly, but it was something along the lines of each person contributed X% of their income, to total up to the amount needed to pay the bills. That way, they had a joint account to pay for bills, groceries, household stuff, etc., and it made them each feel more secure in the financial aspect of the relationship, but they also still had their own accounts with their own money to spend or save as they saw fit.
We don't bother with that, because we both are pretty much the same when it comes to money, and given his job, it's easier for me to handle the money anyway, so it's just easier to have one account that we both access.
You might consider the combo of joint and separate accounts.
Another thing that you might consider is that you are using finances as an excuse. I'm not saying that your concerns aren't valid, but perhaps the truth is that you really aren't all that sure you want to marry her and so you are using the finances as your reason to hold off. For most people, if they really love someone and want to marry and spend their life with that person, this might be a concern but they would be eagerly making suggestions, even ridiculous ones, on how they might make it work. You're not exactly shooting down everyone's suggestions, but you don't seem to be looking at any of them as valid options, saying "You know, that might work...I need to think on that one a bit." So I would give some thought to the idea that although this is a valid concern, that maybe the reality is not so much that you are worried about combining finances but that you aren't all that confident in wanting to spend your life with her. Especially since you mention the relationship might be breaking down...if you're feeling that way, I'm guessing you're (even subconsciously) looking for excuses.
How long have you been together? I don't see where you mention that, and I have to wonder if perhaps that's a factor, too. Maybe you haven't been together too long and you're feeling pressured to make a commitment you're not ready to make. Or maybe you've been together long enough that you know you don't want to marry her but you don't want to leave because of comfort, familiarity, habit, etc. And so again...a valid concern becomes a seemingly impossible to overcome excuse.
The only thing that keeps them there are the intangibles, the lifestyle available with merging incomes and financial security. You're removing a couple of these, in a sense.
I am glad I would drive away such women. I certainly would not want a woman who primarily wants me for better lifestyle with merged incomes / financial security. (I believe the term is a gold-digger?) Having said that, clearly she would be better off with me financially in that her expenses would be lower due the many shared expenses, tax advantages, etc. plus if something did happen to her, she would have me worrying about her financially and non-financially as well. But while this is an "improvement" in her financial security, I'd rather stay alone than be with someone who wants me primarily for financial support...
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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
It really does come down to what YOU want MORE >> is retiring more important to you or this woman and your Love for her , a marraige ?? Money or companionship.
I am afraid most of what you said is correct (I picked just the main question in the quote). So far that's the choice - companionship + go off to work or the "care-free" single life (at least for now)
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Originally Posted by Chelhxi
So, could you compromise on having joint and separate accounts? You both agree what $ or % you both contribute to the joint household and then do what you will with the remainder?
Yes, that's exactly what I proposed and what she does not like - she wants everything combined rather than sharing the expenses for household and leaving the rest to each person. I am completely on board with what you and your H are doing. As you said though "the problems would be if she insisted on completely joint or had a big problem with you not working while she was", which is where I am. (To answer your other question, we are not living together.)
@atruckersgirl: Having separate accounts and a joint one for household expenses was my suggestion. As for this being an excuse, I don't know - things were going well until the issue was brought up. I don't know what you mean by me not looking at suggestions as valid options? So far there were suggestions to just go ahead and forget my financial goals or to do the separate account thing + joint for household expenses. I am having difficulty with the former, and she has difficulty with the latter... I am all ears for more suggestions :-)
The only pressure I feel regarding commitment is of my own making, not from her at all. I am trying to decide for myself if I need to move on and try to find someone more compatible (or even stay alone), or try to make this work in some way. Both options right now seem very hard to do...
I've still been thinking about this and I think you really need to know (if you don't already) the REASON she wants everything combined. This could take many not-so-fun conversions. She might not even know her own reasons and it could be hard to get to the bottom line.
Here are some examples of reasons she might want only combined money:
- "that's just the way it's done"
- parents did it that way
- she thinks combined = you less likely to divorce her
- she wants to keep her options open re: divorcing you and taking your money
- feels anything else isn't the level of commitment that she wants
- she wants to work less (no kids)
- she wants to stay home with kids while you work
- she wants to feel richer
- she wants to spend your money
Lots of other stuff, too I'm sure. There are just so many reasons, and some are red flags and some are just differences of opinion and emotional hot-points that everyone has. Sounds like you need lots of conversations.
Have you discussed other stuff like kids or not? What if there was an unplanned pregnancy? Who would manage the money if kept jointly and what type of rules? Pre-nup? Merging households?
It's a good thing that you are honest with yourself and know yourself. Prevents alot of heartache in the future. I could also retire soon, but choose a different path, yet still can understand and respect this.
I'm in a career program for people identified as future leaders of the company I work for, and its nice that my wife can care less about the financial prospects. Its probably one of the reasons we're still together.
Best way to manage money in this situation? 
