General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
I'm glad I found this site. The tone is helpful and supportive. I've been through a few posts and even tried to make a couple of helpful responses, although I'm the last one to claim success in marriage.
My story: I've been married for over 20 years. My wife is a singer, and has made money on it, certainly not enough to live on though. It's very part-timish. She likes it - who wouldn't? Music and make your own hours. I work full time as a software developer and make quite reasonable money, although the career itself is more for younger guys, and I'm now 53.
The job is demanding and vacation days precious few. Our daughter is in a state college, third year.
I'm starting to look at retirement. We don't have much of a nest-egg, although we do have a good deal of equity in the house. We do have a good emergency day fund going on.
We've had a lot of problems throughout our marriage. We're at different levels culturally, sexually and temperamentally. I'm low-key, she's quick to the trigger. I like to joke around, she's serious. She's a perfectionist, I'm not so much. etc. I like sex...etc. She's never agreed to go to a marriage counselor.
I kept it going for the daughter. Now I'm keeping it going because if I get divorced, I will get killed on alimony (in my state, alimony means you essentially become a slave to your ex).
So, at least I'm trying to get her to be self-sufficient, in case I fly the coop. I basically told her, you can't depend on me. As always, she clammed up and then got p*ss*d off.
I know she won't do anything. She never has, it's not about to change now. She'll stick it out.
Well, in all honesty, if my boyfriend told me I couldn't depend on him after 20 years of a relationship in which I was depending on him, I'd be p*ssed too. The pattern was set, and now you're trying to change things on her, seemingly out of nowhere.
Now, I'm not saying you're wrong here, either. If you're not happy, you're not happy. It does seem very unfair that you're ready to think about retiring, and you can't because you don't really have the money for it. But, you do have to acknowledge your role in this part of the situation. You've had 20 years in which to make her take fiscal responsibility in the marriage, and you didn't. So it's not entirely her fault that you are now in this situation.
Even though you think she'll never agree to marriage counseling, I think you need to require it. Tell her either you two get counseling and some changes get made or you're filing for divorce.
You're worried about alimony, but the fact is, you're already carrying her, so I don't really see how it makes much difference. Yes you'd pay more in alimony, but it seems whether you stay or go, you'd still be stuck working anyway.
This is unfortunately why men shouldn't support stay at home wives in an alimony state. It's basically like you adopted her rather than got an equal partner.
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Astruck, I suppose I wasn't clear, in the interests of keeping things brief. Just as I've tried to get her to work countless times, I've tried to get her to come to marriage counseling countless times. It's far from out of nowhere. Telling her not to depend on me was a fair warning to her that I'm getting fed up and could disappear on her. I don't want to leave her high and dry with no means of support. I want her to be able to fend for herself, if I do take off.
And if I didn't do it more often than I did (and I did, a lot), it's because she gets p*ss*d off and blows up and makes life miserable, each and every time.
As far as "requiring" her to go to marriage counseling, I'm not sure I follow. How do you propose I achieve that? I have been unable to influence her in virtually any area. Except one, which was to convince her to stop her buying sprees after many years of being unable to save. This took effect a few years ago and at least she's got her spending side under control, allowing us to start to put away a few bucks for later.
You may not be aware of how draconian alimony laws are, particularly my state of MA which has the lowest divorce rate in the nation. If we divorce, I'm effectively required to support her at our current standard of living for the rest of her life. It means I need support two households instead of one, and lose my house to her. If I lose my job, I still have to pay, or end up in jail. I would have to pay the lawyers every time we go to court. The formula is 1/3 wife, 1/3 uncle sam, and 1/3 yourself. I don't make enough to split it 3 ways like that. I would be virtually impoverished and with no hope of any kind of life, unless she remarried, which she would never be stupid enough to do.
If things are bad now, it would be horrific then. At least now I can contemplate retirement at age 70.
i wouldnt see anything wrong with you flying the coop on her. i think its sad that after working your entire life you cant retire and enjoy your money. If she has allowed herself to become dependent on you then she has no one but herself to blame. A nice reality check is exactly what she needs. Women have equal rights for a reason. no more excuses.
As far as "requiring" her to go to marriage counseling, I'm not sure I follow. How do you propose I achieve that? I have been unable to influence her in virtually any area. Except one, which was to convince her to stop her buying sprees after many years of being unable to save. This took effect a few years ago and at least she's got her spending side under control, allowing us to start to put away a few bucks for later.
As I said, you tell her that either she goes with you or you're leaving, and then you follow through if she won't go. I understand that you are concerned with how alimony may make it hard for you to survive, and you're right, I'm not familiar with alimony laws. I didn't ask for it from my ex, I just wanted to be rid of him, so I never bothered to learn anything about it. But, you have to figure out what you want from life, and what's more important.
As for the out of nowhere, I didn't mean that this was out of nowhere, but that it's probably how she sees it. The fact that you have brought this up numerous times, and then let it drop when she gets so upset...it's probably led her to believe that you're all talk, no action. So, if/when you do finally leave she will think it's out of nowhere. Or she will at least act that way.
Maybe instead of just waiting until you're thoroughly fed up and then just leaving, perhaps you should try to talk to her again. But instead of letting it go when she gets angry, force the discussion. Even if it leads to an argument, it's better than what you've been doing. If you're willing to fight about it, that might be what opens her eyes to the fact that you really mean what you keep saying and that she finally needs to sit up and take notice.
I can relate to some of the factors in your situation. I guess I would be described also as all talk and not action also, but I think there's a reason I'm called a Bulldog at work. Its just that marriage presents some of us with these unwinnable issues. Basically, my wife only works because I will not accept no as an answer.
I started as a software designer, but the skills learned in project management suited me also to move into corporate management. Have you ever considered taking a sideways path (for less stress to yourself)?
Most would disagree and say I'm heartless for suggesting, but is it an option to begin planning to move to another state if you feel that divorce might be an option? We're talking about alot of money here. Yeah, I know the idea is way out there.
For a real suggestion, I think you're going to have to push this in small increments. Don't let up until you get some objective agreed upon. Maybe start with looking and filling out a few applications. Next might be a one day a week low stress job. She's likely just afraid since the absence has been so long.
Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony.
She's nervous because of language (English isn't her native language, but she's better than a lot of non-native speakers) and also has a medical condition which I can't get too specific about, but it's not serious enough to prevent her from working.
Takris, I actually have thought about moving, and have suggested several options. But again it's a huge deal to her and I meet a ton of resistance. Which reminds me, maybe I should move before she gets a job.
Project management is something I have considered, but I actually find that more stressful than programming. You don't mind it, huh?
Astuckgirl - I can't really threaten to, or actually leave her unless I do it in a really drastic way, i.e. disappear. The reason is if she ever figures out how easy it is to turn me into her own personal lottery ticket just by filing, I'm screwed. I have to be really careful. I also want to be around for my daughter.
Go talk to a lawyer - she is literally living off you like a parasite. He will tell you if the strategy below will work.
Change jobs. Don't tell her. Take a serious pay cut for 1 year and then file. Your alimony will likely be reduced/drastically reduced by that amount.
I also believe that if she is able to work, refuses to that could factor into alimony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack99
Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony.
She's nervous because of language (English isn't her native language, but she's better than a lot of non-native speakers) and also has a medical condition which I can't get too specific about, but it's not serious enough to prevent her from working.
Takris, I actually have thought about moving, and have suggested several options. But again it's a huge deal to her and I meet a ton of resistance. Which reminds me, maybe I should move before she gets a job.
Project management is something I have considered, but I actually find that more stressful than programming. You don't mind it, huh?
Astuckgirl - I can't really threaten to, or actually leave her unless I do it in a really drastic way, i.e. disappear. The reason is if she ever figures out how easy it is to turn me into her own personal lottery ticket just by filing, I'm screwed. I have to be really careful. I also want to be around for my daughter.
[QUOTE=Jack99;211361]Thanks for all your input. The basic message I'm getting is to stick with it, and not drop it for the sake of harmony.
Takris, I actually have thought about moving, and have suggested several options. But again it's a huge deal to her and I meet a ton of resistance. Which reminds me, maybe I should move before she gets a job.
Project management is something I have considered, but I actually find that more stressful than programming. You don't mind it, huh? QUOTE]
I only referred to project management as a skill that could help with another job. I've worked as a 6 Sigma Black belt, manufacturing engineering supervisor, and am currently a quality professional in the develpment of new products. Work for a company that has a culture of treating each other fairly. Never once heard of a manager being fired, etc.
In a subtle way, I was trying to suggest slowly, deliberately redefining yourself. Along the way, she might put her foot down and say "I'm outta here". To me, location is an option. If I divorce, your state would cost me over a million dollars. Like you, maybe, I thought we could grow together because there were aspects that I really loved. But time made it obvious that my wife, with BPD, can only think in the context of herself. I'm just suggesting that you grow to be the person you dreamed of being and don't let her be an anchor.
Is there any way that selling the house could help the situation? If it turns into a big chunk of cash, then maybe that could be factored into the monthly alimony payments--or, at the very least, it would be divided in half, and you could use your half to pay off alimony while you continued working. This would give you some time to get your feet on the ground with a new apartment, while making sure that she has enough money in savings to support herself for awhile. Dividing money up is always easier than dividing property; afterall, if you don't sell then she could get the whole house AND you'd have to pay the same in alimony.
Out of curiosity, is your wife the type of person to take you for all you're worth in a divorce? Or will she be upset, but make reasonable demands?
If you do divorce soon, there is one good thing that will come out of it--you will get loads more financial aid from your daughter's school!
Lime, I'm not keen on the idea of selling the house so I can pay her alimony. I bought it with money I earned. I don't want to burn it all off on alimony if I can avoid it.
What type of person is my wife? I would like to say she wouldn't take me to the cleaners - but I'm not sure. She will need the money, since she frankly doesn't have very much earning power. Why would she choose to be poor? In her position, I would want to max out.
Mem11363 - Thanks for also for the suggestion - but don't want to take a pay cut. It took me a long time to get to where I'm at - I'm almost in a "golden handcuff" situation, given my age and certain skills I have which are more valuable at my company at most others. I also I understand that the courts look at what you *could* be earning, not what you are earning - the "imputed income" Conrad was talking about. Her imputed income will be very low.
Financial aid for my daughter is a not a huge concern. She's goes to a state school, so the tuition/fees are about 1/2 a private school. Plus, she's an RA so room and board is paid, and she is picking up a certain amount in college loans and other small scholarships. She only has one year to go - she will almost certainly be out of school before anything happens.
Takris, I believe you are correct. We *are* talking about a lot of money. Not millions in my case, but still plenty. And for a lifetime. (side note: an attempt was made to reform mass alimony laws last year - however the politician in charge of putting the legislation through is a divorce lawyer, so obviously it has gone nowhere after two years). These draconion laws are like having the sword of Democles hanging over your head. It makes it impossible to negotiate from a position of strength. It helps enormously to hear this location coming from someone else. I also like your self-improvement suggestion. I have a Master's in IT, just graduated this year. I believe it's never too late.
I feel for your situation with your wife (or is it ex-wife?). It's an awful thing to have to go through. What is your current situation?
Thank you so much. Thanks to everyone who has replied. You are all *great*.
Jack,
Have you actually spoken to a lawyer? Until you do that - you won't have the facts as they apply to 'your' situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack99
This is really, really helpful. Thank you all.
Lime, I'm not keen on the idea of selling the house so I can pay her alimony. I bought it with money I earned. I don't want to burn it all off on alimony if I can avoid it.
What type of person is my wife? I would like to say she wouldn't take me to the cleaners - but I'm not sure. She will need the money, since she frankly doesn't have very much earning power. Why would she choose to be poor? In her position, I would want to max out.
Mem11363 - Thanks for also for the suggestion - but don't want to take a pay cut. It took me a long time to get to where I'm at - I'm almost in a "golden handcuff" situation, given my age and certain skills I have which are more valuable at my company at most others. I also I understand that the courts look at what you *could* be earning, not what you are earning - the "imputed income" Conrad was talking about. Her imputed income will be very low.
Financial aid for my daughter is a not a huge concern. She's goes to a state school, so the tuition/fees are about 1/2 a private school. Plus, she's an RA so room and board is paid, and she is picking up a certain amount in college loans and other small scholarships. She only has one year to go - she will almost certainly be out of school before anything happens.
Takris, I believe you are correct. We *are* talking about a lot of money. Not millions in my case, but still plenty. And for a lifetime. (side note: an attempt was made to reform mass alimony laws last year - however the politician in charge of putting the legislation through is a divorce lawyer, so obviously it has gone nowhere after two years). These draconion laws are like having the sword of Democles hanging over your head. It makes it impossible to negotiate from a position of strength. It helps enormously to hear this location coming from someone else. I also like your self-improvement suggestion. I have a Master's in IT, just graduated this year. I believe it's never too late.
I feel for your situation with your wife (or is it ex-wife?). It's an awful thing to have to go through. What is your current situation?
Thank you so much. Thanks to everyone who has replied. You are all *great*.
Mem11363 - yes, I did speak to a lawyer. She agreed on the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule - and suggested to start the paperwork immediately. I thought that was kind of rushing things. Shouldn't there be mandatory counseling, or something, in non-violent situations? How many marriages could've been saved?
But, I believe you are correct - it's time to talk again. A different one.
Wife won't work, moody 
