Help I'm stuck trying to reconcile my marriage

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

I'll try to summarize the last year of my life:

It started last year. My wife says she no longer loves me and reveals an EA (co-worker). Devastated I react like any other man in this situation and try to fix everything and go overboard. I check her emails and phone and as far as I can tell the EA is one sided and not physical. The next few months I try my best to address her needs. I educate my self (5 Love Languages, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Love Must be Tough, forums etc.). She feels awful about the EA and actively avoids talking to him.
Overall everything seems normal, we spend time as a family 2 kids (3 and 5 yrs.), we hold hands, hug, talk, complement each other, but no sex. Every time sex comes up she reminds me that there is no love and wants to separate. She leaves a few days here and few days there and comes back. We went to marriage counselling and started to see improvements, more intimacy, one sided, her touching me, but eventually broke down and stopped going.
She feels like she has no control over her life. I've tried a combination of Plan A (marriagebuilders) and 180 but every time I start seeing results we run into the intimacy issue again. This last break down I told her that I would like her to be there for me physically and that she can't just have me around as a friend. I've told her more than once that she is free to do whatever she wants. I won't stop her from leaving. But at the same time I've told that I believe in marriage and want us to be a family.

I can't find many resources on men in the situation I'm in. I keep trying these 180s but I keep falling every time she starts coming back to me.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or feedback on what to do next. I am completely lost. Every time I think I know what to do I falter.

survivorwife · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience said:
I'll try to summarize the last year of my life:

It started last year. My wife says she no longer loves me and reveals an EA (co-worker). Devastated I react like any other man in this situation and try to fix everything and go overboard. I check her emails and phone and as far as I can tell the EA is one sided and not physical. The next few months I try my best to address her needs. I educate my self (5 Love Languages, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Love Must be Tough, forums etc.). She feels awful about the EA and actively avoids talking to him.
Overall everything seems normal, we spend time as a family 2 kids (3 and 5 yrs.), we hold hands, hug, talk, complement each other, but no sex. Every time sex comes up she reminds me that there is no love and wants to separate. She leaves a few days here and few days there and comes back. We went to marriage counselling and started to see improvements, more intimacy, one sided, her touching me, but eventually broke down and stopped going.
She feels like she has no control over her life. I've tried a combination of Plan A (marriagebuilders) and 180 but every time I start seeing results we run into the intimacy issue again. This last break down I told her that I would like her to be there for me physically and that she can't just have me around as a friend. I've told her more than once that she is free to do whatever she wants. I won't stop her from leaving. But at the same time I've told that I believe in marriage and want us to be a family.

I can't find many resources on men in the situation I'm in. I keep trying these 180s but I keep falling every time she starts coming back to me.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or feedback on what to do next. I am completely lost. Every time I think I know what to do I falter.

Where does she go and what does she do when she leaves?

Maybe the next time, you should take her up on her offer. When she leaves, let her know that the marriage is over if she does so. Call her bluff. Ask if she she has seen an attorney - and consider seeing one yourself. When she leaves, does she take the children or leave them with you?

Since you say that you have tried everything, it might be time for her to consider the consequences and file for divorce. You can always reconsider later since a divorce takes time before it is finalized, but filing for divorce might be the wake up call she needs.

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

She usually goes to a hotel on her own and leaves the kids. Comes back miserable because she misses them. She's also stayed with a friend of ours once. We still live together. If I file for divorce, I'll have to follow through if she calls the bluff. I'm not ready to do that yet. But I guess I have to do something don't I?

survivorwife · May 7, 2014

And who is she staying with at the hotel without her children? And if she is so "miserable", why does she keep doing it?

It sounds like you are afraid that she will call your bluff, however, your marriage can't continue as it stands now can it? And what about her filing for divorce, since she is the one who wants to end it (at her convenience).

Yes, unless you are enjoying the situation now (and clearly you are not), you just may have to end the charade. The marriage as you knew it is over. You can ride this out, but you will end up divorced eventually. Your other option is to end this marriage, and maybe in the process she will realize that she is losing you for good. This might clear her head, or it might not, but you really have no choice and the sooner the better.

Good luck to you. I feel your pain. But sometimes you have to look out for yourself and your children, with or without her.

EasyPartner · May 7, 2014

Seems like your approach worked to a certain degree, a few times even... but then you push for sex and you're back to square one...

Maybe you expect major results too fast... different women are wired differently so it could be that for your wife (LD anyway?), sex is not on the menu before you guys connect emotionally in a larger degree than you got to achieve yet...

So I would stay the course and not push for sex anymore, for the time being... she knows you want sex, let her initiate when she's ready.

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

Yes, that is the dilemma. File for divorce or continue. Have any other men here been through anything similar? Did your partner come back to connect with you again intimately after being apart for a long time?

syhoybenden · May 7, 2014

You can't combine the two.

Plan A and the 180 are two distinct and incompatible tactics.

Either one standing alone has its pros and cons. They will conflict with one another should you attempt them simultaneously and you will end up with a big handful of regret.

jorgegene · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience:

Was she ever in love with you? What were the early days like?
Describe the evolution of the marriage.

Was it a case of 'she was never really in love with you, just got married' or was it a slow devolving decent into the present state?

Does she really think the grass is greener in another pasture?
You sound like a pretty good husband. what is your self critique?
Where do you think you went wrong, or did you?

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

syhoybenden:
Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology. Basically what I've been doing was addressing her complaints (wrongly labelled Plan A) i.e. doing more house work, spending more time at home etc. and at the same time not chasing, not begging, trying to be happy on my own (180).

jorgegene:
In counselling she said the last time she felt love was after our first born. After the EA was addressed she did say she loved me but quickly back tracked. We are really good friends, she says that I am her best friend, and we've known and dated each other for a long time, since high school. After our second was born I did not meet all her needs but I wouldn't say I was really neglectful. I have address those issues these last couple of months. There was a time after our first that we were having a lot of sex and that resulted in our second. The sex was part of what she said she never had control over. She had a hard time saying 'no' to me because she was always afraid to disappoint me. I had no idea that she felt this way until our initial marriage break down. I haven't been pushing for sex this past couple of months. I've been giving her space. But it does come up once in a while when I can hold it in any longer.

turnera · May 9, 2014

tryingpatience said:
We are really good friends, she says that I am her best friend, and we've known and dated each other for a long time, since high school. After our second was born I did not meet all her needs but I wouldn't say I was really neglectful. I have address those issues these last couple of months. There was a time after our first that we were having a lot of sex and that resulted in our second. The sex was part of what she said she never had control over. She had a hard time saying 'no' to me because she was always afraid to disappoint me. I had no idea that she felt this way until our initial marriage break down. I haven't been pushing for sex this past couple of months. I've been giving her space. But it does come up once in a while when I can hold it in any longer.

She's mature enough now that she needs 'desire' to have sex. That means YOU have to become alpha enough to turn her on. Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? I'll bet she has. You might want to. Gives good insight into what some women want.

In addition, have you read MMSLP? This is far more important for you than NMMNG at this point. Women often have to feel 'swept away' by their man and, as she has pointed out, you're a good FRIEND.

6301 · May 7, 2014

The only resource you need is for a lawyer for your divorce and a locksmith to retool your doors on your house.

For Gods sake man, she's walking all over you and your letting her.

Maybe you believe in marriage but in order for that to happen, you have to have one.

Next time she skips out for a few days tell her not to come back. That will give you the time to find an attorney and be done with this mess.

naiveonedave · May 7, 2014

I don't buy plan A. She needs to be doing more, not you.

I also don't buy that she isn't having fun nights at the hotel, either.

justtryin · May 7, 2014

From your brief description, sounds like she's lost her attraction to you, and when you change your behavior to become more attractive and it starts to draw her in, you display non-attractive behaviors again...i.e. neediness for sex. Along the lines of what EasyPartner said above.

You also may "think" you are fully meeting her needs...but it doesn't sound like it to me. If you were, she may not necessarily be wanting to have sex with you still, but she definitely wouldn't be running off all the time. She'd feel too good to want to risk being away from you. That's the first step. The second step is focusing on you behaving more attractively again, once you KNOW you're meeting her needs. And you will KNOW. She'll tell you, and her actions will back it up.

Obviously you can work on those two steps simultaneously, but she needs to have that emotional connection first, her emotional needs fully met before she can allow herself to display her attraction to you, to be safe and comfortable enough. Did she ever say why she was drawn to the OM? It doesn't matter a great deal, but it could help shed some light. My guess is that it was "needs" related way more than attraction. Again highlighting that you were not anywhere near meeting her needs in the right ways.

Calle Zorro has a great program on how to properly meet your wife's needs and how to become attractive to your wife again, including shut down and blocked wives. If you really get into it, it can be a little costly, but so is divorce and counseling etc. The subscribers forum there is a critical component too, full of guys who have been through all kinds of situations and understand all the material, and successfully came through. Some of the advice is going to be similar to what you've already seen here and in other materials, but far more comprehensive and a very clear "blueprint". Some of it will be an entirely new perspective to you too. It's all centered around strong values - character, integrity, responsibility, respect, love, etc.

In my opinion it's your best bet. It's no quick fix, and it requires a lot of work from YOU. But it's also work ON you, FOR you. The beauty of it is that it helps you become the kind of man who can move forward in your life, positively, one way or the other. You'll be a far better man with or without her. Hopefully with her of course, that's the goal.

It also requires -zero- effort or input from her. She doesn't even need to know you're doing it. But she WILL notice and she WILL respond. So long as you ruthlessly stick to the principles, you will become the man of her dreams again. It will then be up to her to decide to embrace that or not.

my two cents, good luck.
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DoF · May 7, 2014

Your wife clearly told you she doesn't love you.
She already cheated on you.
And is unwilling to have sex with you.

And you STILL think you can reconcile?

You clearly gave it your all, your wife is done....what she has done or how she did it is now irrelevent. It's time to move on, close this chapter of your life and find someone that will treat you better.

You don't deserve this.

PS. Keep children COMPLETELY out of this. You being in an unhealthy relationship is as bad on them as no marriage. And to your advantage they are still too young to really understand.....so it should be easier.

Last advice, I would gather as much evidence as possible before pressing any buttons, and of course try to reach a mutual agreement with your wife/with no lawyers involved (cause the second that happens expect 5-15k going to them....from EACH of you).

Good luck

A Bit Much · May 7, 2014

Was her withdrawing from you regarding sex mentioned in counseling? If so, what did the counselor say about it?

Marriage and sex go together. She is denying you and herself a whole relationship.

DoF · May 7, 2014

To be honest, I'm not sure if I would want sex if I was OP right now.

I would probably ask for STD test first......

There is a GOOD reason why she is not sexual with him.

Probably just in it for the kids at this point.....while doing her own thing on the side.

Think about this for a second OP. She had an emotional relationship with her co worker. Someone that she works with and sees EVERY DAY.

One would have to be REALLY naive to think that nothing physical happened yet......I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Put yourself in her shoes. If you don't love your wife and your co worker lady already showed you that she is ready to bang......how long can you keep it in your pants?

yeah

If she ever offers it, this usually means her other relationship is going sour.

If you do choose to be sexual with her again, protect yourself......and ask her for STD test (this is nothing to play around with).

I stand by my original advice, time for divorce!

A Bit Much · May 7, 2014

I don't buy into the whole it's final in her mind yet. I do think she's confused, but I don't think that has been thoroughly dealt with in counseling. They need to work through that. She's affectionate in all other ways except actual sex.

He's willing to work past whatever was going on with the co-worker to get on the same page as his wife. That's should be validated.

Hicks · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience said:
She feels like she has no control over her life. .

What do you think this means?
This means that she still wants another man, but for whatever reason she cannot have him. IT could be impractical. It could be he doesn't want her.

You don't have to go straight to a divorce. But, you do have to act differently then you are currently acting.

The current situation is this. She cheated. You took the blame and started acting better. Now, how many women are sexually attracted to men who bend over backwards to fix themself after she cheats on him? Do you think your wife feels you are really attracted to her versus wanting the kids not to suffer or yourself not to suffer with a divorce? How could she feel that you love HER as opposed to loving simply your marital status? It's hard for her to wrap herself around that.

You should no longer GIVE more than you are receiving. And embrace it. Welcome it. Isn't there a big upside not having to worry about meeting your wife's needs? You get to do what YOU feel like doing. You get to call the shots as it suits you. You get to construct a world where you and your kids are the center, and she is not really welcome other than to look after your kids when you have something better to do.

A free man, an independent man, a man who expects people to earn a place in his life... When she is on the outside looking in, she will want to earn a place back into her family. That is the man your wife will find sexually desirable.

DoF · May 7, 2014

Although this is all good advice, fact remains, she doesn't love him.

No matter what OP does or how different he is.......without love, it doesn't matter.

She will not gain love or love you again even if he changes his way.

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

Thank you for all the responses. I've been reading and listening. I do like what you are saying Hicks. A_Bit_Much we never really got to the bottom of her crisis before we stopped counselling. DoF, yes when you put things that way I feel stupid because it becomes obvious.
I'm trying to see if we can get past whatever she is going through. I completely believe that the problem is with her not me. I acknowledged my faults early. I made it clear that her affair was unacceptable and that it was disrespectful to me and our marriage. That is where my head is right now. It took me a while to get there but I do realize that divorce is an option. Just not convinced yet that it is the only option.
She shows me that she cares in many other ways. Can't it grow from there? Or is it all or nothing in your experience?

DoF · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience said:
I'm trying to see if we can get past whatever she is going through. I completely believe that the problem is with her not me. I acknowledged my faults early. I made it clear that her affair was unacceptable and that it was disrespectful to me and our marriage. That is where my head is right now. It took me a while to get there but I do realize that divorce is an option. Just not convinced yet that it is the only option.
She shows me that she cares in many other ways. Can't it grow from there? Or is it all or nothing in your experience?

Understandable and possibly, it CAN but if she shows you no affection, no love and no sex.....that simply means "I don't care if you get it elsewhere". She know what's at risk, you are a man and you have needs, if those are not met......well, you go elsewhere (unless you can live without sex, your call).

To me, you did everything you can......she did NOTHING (or very little) and is still negligent to you in some important areas (sex for example).

And the whole "no love" thing. I mean we are talking about a FEELING here.

If you lost love for your wife, do you think it can grow back up? Personally I don't think so.

Did she even bother to apologize for it? Any guilt or sorrow?

Does she still work there? Least she could've done is find another job and distance herself.....but I have a feeling their relationship has only progressed (vs died down).

It's her responsibility to gain your trust again, and it seems like she doesn't even care if she builds it back up again AT ALL.

Divorce is not just an option, it's reality. UNLESS you accept status quo for the rest of your life.

Your choice.

A Bit Much · May 7, 2014

A person that doesn't care isn't there. That's been my experience.

If she's showing you in other ways, there is hope. You have to get to the bottom of it, and you can't do it IMO without the help of a counselor. Draw your line in the sand. Counseling continues or she has to move out.

Marduk · May 7, 2014

Next time she leaves, change the locks and serve her papers.

She's in an EA and has every availability to be in a PA. She says she doesn't love you.

You say you are doing a 180 and then you roll out the red carpet for her to return.

Cold truth is she gets a few day's playtime with her boyfriend before coming back to the man that is taking care of her kids and supporting her, and you are tolerating this.

Lawyers, paperwork, go for an amicable settlement if possible.

You get what you tolerate. You deserve better.

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

The reality, yes it really sucks. But humour me for a moment (I'm on the fence here). What if the EA is over like she says and she is truly just confused about our marriage. Don't people question their marriages? Having kids changes people. Combine that with the control issues she's brought up. Would your advice still be the same? She still tries to do things together with me. Believe me everything I've read makes me want to do another check on her movements but she can't do much when she has to pick up the kids everyday after work and she's busy running a class as a teacher. She hasn't been going out much on the weekends and I'm not seeing anything on her phone, no secretive calls or texts.

DoF · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience said:
The reality, yes it really sucks. But humour me for a moment (I'm on the fence here). What if the EA is over like she says and she is truly just confused about our marriage.

We can play what if game all day and night.

What if she left you for the other guy already?

Tell us, did she feel bad for what she did. Did she apologize? Did she take steps to build trust again (find new job/put distance between them, take steps to fix marriage etc)?

You are dreaming, while ignoring reality (I think)

tryingpatience said:
Don't people question their marriages? Having kids changes people. Combine that with the control issues she's brought up. Would your advice still be the same? She still tries to do things together with me. Believe me everything I've read makes me want to do another check on her movements but she can't do much when she has to pick up the kids everyday after work and she's busy running a class as a gr8 teacher. She hasn't been going out much on the weekends and I'm not seeing anything on her phone, no secretive calls or texts.

You are the best judge of the situation. We can only go by what you tell us.

All of the above sounds good. BUT, reality is:
- she doesn't love you

- she doesn't care enough for you to make sure you are satisfied (risk = you getting it elsewhere). I don't care how strong you might be, in time you WILL cave (and if you do, divorce first).

- she hasn't taken steps to discuss what went wrong or lead
her to EA/cheating > thus, she can't possibly know the triggers or how to prevent it next time > thus you don't know what you might have done wrong

- she hasn't taken steps to build/earn your trust back

As far as I'm concerned, she could be banging him on the lunch break or still have an EA with him without you knowing. Why should YOU be Sherlock Holmes here?

It's HER job to work on this stuff.

When it comes to feeling love for someone though, NOTHING you or she can do to fix that (I'm afraid). You either have it for the person, or you don't.

I don't believe in "building love" or "building it back up".

Besides, why would you want to be with a person that doesn't love you anyway?

And yes, reality does suck for you right now, it should feel exactly the way it feels. It's going to take time and pain for you to recover (if you decide to move on).

I wish you good luck, I really do hope you and your wife can get past this and continue your marriage (I always like to be optimistic about that).

I just don't see it happening based on everything you told us here.

It would also help to hear both sides of the story, but I will warn you, that can be rather dangerous and our opinion CAN change if your wife gave us her side of the story.

DoF · May 7, 2014

I thought the post below would fit in nicely here. BTW, you might want to check out that thread as well (another guy with wife that doesn't love him)

Lon said:
I'm not talking about manipulation or game playing. But when someone says they don't love you, you need to pay attention. She will not be looking out for your interests, she has resigned herself from that responsibility. She will not be attempting to fulfill your needs. You are on your own, so whatever your next move is has to be in your own best interest. That is for you to decide and if you struggle identifying that then try to find a counsellor to help you do so.

And you can be perfectly clear with her about this, no manipulation. If you want to continue to cohabitate, then do so but don't expect that giving things to her is going to influence her feelings. If you want her trust then just be honest and live up to your words. If she is not all in, then you are in limbo and the longer you are there the most disappointment you will experience. If you decide that it is in your best interest to detach then that is what the 180 is for.

So ask her what she wants to do, don't take "I don't know" for an answer, then help her get what she wants so that you are not in limbo anymore.

1st paragraph is spot on IMO.

tryingpatience · May 7, 2014

For the last couple of months I've taken the path of not bringing up anything, not creating any pressure, I thought that this would be the best tactic based on what I've read. I truly believed that she was going through a midlife crisis of sorts.
After the last break down she wants a separation. Should I initiate it with a divorce? What would be the stronger position here. Other advice I've received says to let her do it. Yes, we are in limbo and I am accepting that either you love someone or not. I don't want to move out because I don't think I should. I would want her to move out. I will let everyone know how this plays out tonight.

survivorwife · May 7, 2014

tryingpatience said:
For the last couple of months I've taken the path of not bringing up anything, not creating any pressure, I thought that this would be the best tactic based on what I've read. I truly believed that she was going through a midlife crisis of sorts.
After the last break down she wants a separation. Should I initiate it with a divorce? What would be the stronger position here. Other advice I've received says to let her do it. Yes, we are in limbo and I am accepting that either you love someone or not. I don't want to move out because I don't think I should. I would want her to move out. I will let everyone know how this plays out tonight.

Yes. A separation is not going to be a mini-vacation from marriage. A separation is a prelude to divorce. Make sure she understands the consequences. Stay in the marriage and fix it - or separation and divorce. No vacation.

While separated, you can see an attorney, get your financial situation set up, move on without her and get used to life without her. If that's what she wants, then separate. If she expects you to be waiting for her should she want to come back, let her know that option may not be available. You will be moving forward.

Then see how she responds to the new reality.

tryingpatience · May 8, 2014

So last night I basically told her that a separation will mean a divorce for me. She asked me if I wanted her out of the house and I said yes. I gave her 2 weeks to find a place. I told her that her EA destroyed this marriage and there will be no reconciliation because there is no love. I told her that I've been trying for the past year and it has all been one-sided. She waited for me to come to bed but instead I slept in a separate room last night.

I don't feel good right now. She's already asked me in a text if she can take the kids on Sunday to her grandmothers house for mothers day. To address everyone who is convinced that she is having a party every time she leaves. I know for a fact that she was alone when she left. Once she stayed with her parents. She was miserable every time she left and came home. The last time I put my foot down she came back wanting to try MC. That improved things for a while but ended. How do I prevent this from happening again? How do you know if someone is truly remorseful? I don't want to fall into the same patterns again. I'm trying to find ways to stay strong here.

Hicks · May 8, 2014

What you need to do is keep moving toward divorce. Stay in your home and in your bed. Encourage her to be the one to leave (which you did, good!). Let her know that she for now is welcome in your life as a loving wife and that the choice is completely hers. You should be documenting your case for primary child custody by maintaining a log of watching your children more than your wife does (easy if she is out of the house). You should separate finances. You should hire a lawyer.

The idea is your wife will become remorseful (perhaps) when she loses the gifts you are giving her. The gift of an intact family, money, a house, a helper, a coparent, a friend. She will be remorseful eventually if her post divorce life sucks. But rather than debate and discuss, you merely have do define the conditions for you to welcome her back (she needs to be a loving wife, working with you on creating a fulfilling marriage).

I would read a bunch of threads here in "Coping with Infidelity" and you will see examples of what works and what does not. The problem up to now is she has not faced a negative consequence that will make her remorseful. All her affair did was make you act better. That causes the opposite of remorse.

tryingpatience · May 8, 2014

Thanks Hicks. Looking for some advise on how to handle the transition with the kids. I know she's fishing to see how I feel by asking me to take the kids on Sunday. Do we still do things as a family? I feel strong enough to deal with her. But the second the kids are involved I feel horrible.

Hicks · May 8, 2014

Of course you let her take them for Mother's day. I would avoid doing family things with your wife until your wife indicates she wants to have a family. I don't know if it's posted, but did you expose her affair?

tryingpatience · May 8, 2014

No, I did not expose the affair. I was just reading about that here Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. Question, should I call up the OP? From what I know it was one sided and he is single. Does this kind of action go against the 180 rules? Seems vindictive or angry to me. Also, should I still wear my ring during all this? Or do I make a point not to?

Help I'm stuck trying to reconcile my marriage

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