credamdóchasgra

Ok, my friends...

So many of you have been SO helpful to me in navigating the frustrating conflicts of my marriage. I really am so grateful.

Last night's episode is kind of a paradigm of our fundamental problems.

He came home, "read" my behaviors and attitude, perceived that I was still bugged about the previous days' issues, and struck before he could be "attacked" with a request to "talk." He lashed out in an "I'll get you before you can get me" way.

As offensive as this may sound to some of you, in some ways my H is like either a young, frightened child, or a frightened puppy who needs to be TRAINED to TRUST the person who is closest to him and to receive love from that person.

(Don't get me wrong. I know I have my emotional hijacks--"Good God, woman!"--but the truth is, I'm the one who looks at a raging spouse and feels sorry for the tantruming child inside instead of joining in to match his volume. I'm the one who's going to put on my big girl panties instead of getting them in a bunch.)

ANYWAY, my point is...I know that his anger covers up deep fears. I'm hoping my knowledge of that helps guide me how to, yes, "handle" him in a way that we both grow.

I know that an angry, raging person is a weak person. No, I'm not triumphant over his "weakness." I just know it doesn't need to scare or hurt me. And I trust that if my responses are guided by my understanding of that, instead of being vulnerable to it, I can disarm those attacks.

I've "tried" different strategies from some of you--THANK YOU!!! And what I'm learning is that whatever I "try," sometimes I have a "good" feeling of peace, strength and self-confidence about it--regardless of what HE is doing or not doing--and if that feeling is there, I trust that I'm doing the right thing.

I have a deep-seated gut instinct that some of the things I need to "train" my H in, and/or "show' him are that closeness, intimacy, and communication don't have to equal attacks, fights, competition. Conflict doesn't have to equal enmity.

Yes, there's a part of me who wants to take him to task for acting a nutty fool last night, demand a sincere apology, TELL him "your verbal tirades are UNACCEPTABLE so get used to it!"
....but I do not believe that will be effective.

So I'm seeking a balance between "owning" his issues, and stepping back so that he can own them.

If last night's tantrum was a paradigm of our problems, I HOPE that the way it was handled can represent a solution:

The second I let him know I *understood* why he'd gotten upset, he softened.

The moment I asked him what he needed from me, he got nicer.

And then I told him what I needed from him, and showed him I could reciprocate what HE needed.

I guess my purpose here is "blog-like." I need to get these thoughts out because I have some clarity and peace, and I know it'll help if I can come back and read this sometimes.

If anyone has any thoughts, feedback, or can relate to ANY of this, please know how much you are helping me and will continue to help me whatever you say.

I cannot thank you enough for supporting me, kicking me in the a**, challenging me, talking me down, and/or relating to me every time I post. Keep it comin', if you can!!!

credamdóchasgra

Oh, and lest I come across as if I have it all figured out, I do not.

I still have this nagging question/battle in my mind:
"Am I sending the message that he 'won,' can get away with a yelling verbal tirade and have me come home and be sweet like nothing happened?"
Because I think he wanted to "show me" that he CAN get away with that, and he wanted to bully me into accepting it.
--"You can't tell me what to do!!! I'll do exactly what you told me not to do! HA!!" :/
Then I have to remind myself that I DID say:
"Look, you were very angry and got nasty. I can't go on like nothing happened without acknowledging that. I need an apology." This "demand" did NOT work.
What worked?-->"What do you need from me?"
...THEN, "Ok, will do. I need a sincere apology from you."

If anyone wants to tell me that it wasn't a sincere apology, I shouldn't have stepped in to "fix," I totally hear you.

But I chose to bite the bullet and step in on this one, extend the "what do you need from me?" olive branch first...and in this case, it worked, and I felt lighter and better.

And lest I come across as if I arrogantly believe I don't have my own issues and fears, I do.

Am I sufficiently redundant by now? Good God, woman!

reachingshore

I think you should tell him that you did not appreciate his screaming yesterday. Phrase it NOT as if you are looking for an apology. Just communicate to him that this is not something acceptable. And leave it at that.

Also try to find a way to "disarm" his lashing out. When my husband starts screaming during a fight, I go in a totally deliberate calm quiet voice "Why are you screaming? I don't understand why you are screaming". It bloody works , he looks dumbfounded and immediately tones it down (even says in a calm voice "I wasn't screaming" , I leave it at that, and he continues saying whatever he was trying to say).

__________________
If you must say yes, say it with an open heart. If you must say no, say it without fear. - Paulo Coelho

credamdóchasgra

Reachingshore, I already told him I don't like his screaming yesterday.

He knows. Returning to yesterday's issue would be SO counterproductive at this point.
It would be more "you're telling me what to do!! You're not moving past it!!"

he's more likely to NOT scream in the future if I show him that I can give him what he needed: to drop it after he acknowledged and owned his poor behavior.

Gotta move forward.
Verbally correcting what already happened, won't change future actions.

We have counseling on Thursday...whatever needs to come up, will come up then and there.
I 100% believe that counseling will be more productive if there's little to no "relationship talk" before then.
He may even own last night's tantrum more readily if it's the worst we see all week (counselor always asks each of us "what do you wish you'd done differently in the past week?")

Reachingshore, thank you for your help and feedback!!
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Hicks

I think you have hit on a few things that will help you. 1. You want to train your H. Obviously it's a bit of a degrading analogy but a very good one. If you were training a dog do will you be successful in explaining your point of view so your dog really understands you? No you either bop him on the nose when he is doing something wrong or give him a treat when he is doing something right. And before the sexual structure degrades in your marriage as you build up resentment to your husband, you have to train your husband into how to keep you emotionally happy and keep in operating in an attractive manner after the newness wears off. So I think you should keep this analogy however degrading you think it is in your mind.

Second key point. Your husband is not going to be good at reading your emotional state. IF you want to use body language and mood to communcate with your husband, you will make things more difficult to him. He'd rather hear, Honey I"m too tired / sick to go out tonight but how about going out tomorrow night? Then hear the words "yes I will go out" and then see you acting like you don't want to go out.

Third, sincerity... Do you sincerly want a happy marriage? Do you sincerely want to take actions and make efforts to improve it? That's the kind of sincerity to think about.

credamdóchasgra

Hicks, thank you. To answer your third question: absolutely.

In the big picture and over time, absolutely all this makes sense. Here's my current struggle though:

he was really nasty the other night. I mean really nasty.
Yes, like I said above, after I set the tone by asking him what *he* needed, he said he was sorry.
But I had to ask for that apology, so it wasn't inspired in himself.

Before I sound whiny and stubborn, here's my point:
am I supposed to just jump right back into my sweet, loving, affectionate, cheerful self with him?
When he unloads a loud bullying verbal tirade on me----however I "understand" it-----how am I supposed to cozy right back up to him?
(now if he had initiated a "hey I'm sorry about that", I'd be able to)

do you see my dilemma?
Big picture: yes. Train through actions, ask what he needs, send loving energy, have sex...
But how am I supposed to treat him *right now,* without sending either of these two messages:
1. "it's perfectly fine to explode on me in a loud blaming cursing rage. Another blow job with your dinner, darling?"
2. "i'm still not over it, still mad at you, still holding a grudge."

no, i'm not still "mad." but stuff like that is not okay and it affects our relationship.
How do I send *that* message?

I'm not being cold or b****y, but I'm not being cozy sweet cutesy.
I'm also trying to show him I'm not needy so I'm a little more detached.
---not hanging on every word he says, not clinging to him initiating every contact.

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credamdóchasgra

oh, and btw... The training you mention started yesterday morning:

I asked him to make me a sandwich because I was in a hurry to get out of the house on time, and after he did I made a big "thank you honey that's so helpful to me" deal out of it.

I know at the heart of his lashing out is a feeling of helplessness: "i can't do anything about this!!"

but damned if I'm not swallowing s*** down to make fanfare over a sandwich the day after getting verbally lambasted.
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AFEH

A codependent who's trying to "fix" their partner?

credamdóchasgra

Bob,
I'm figuring it out as I go and of course don't want to be co-dependent and "fix" his issues.
Between putting his needs first for awhile, and drawing boundaries for myself, where do I put myself and what do I do?
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credamdóchasgra

My self-therapeutic "blogging" continues.

Here is how I disarmed/defused the kind of remark from my H that mightve led to escalation.
In other words, the soda machine is broken:

H goes to get his ipad and sees the battery is dead because I forgot to turn it off after I used it.
He gets all cranky and critical about it:
"you NEED to turn it OFF when you're done, or it loses battery."
me: "ok. So what I hear you saying is that if I turn it off the battery will last longer. Got it."
him: "this is the third time you've done it this week. The other day you did ut with your phone then used the netbook, then---"
I interrupted him and did the full 3 parts of the "imago dialogue" we're learning at counseling:
"so what I hear you saying is that if I turn it off, the battery will last longer. Did I get that? Is there more? I can see how having to wait for it is a source of aggravation. It must make you feel irritated, annoyed, and impatient at having to wait."
conversation done.
soda machine broken.
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Hicks

You should not just take anything and should always defend your boundaries. The question is how to get your husband to understand your feelings and make changes in himself. Is it accomplished by you moping around? Is it accomplished by having a relationship talk? Is it accomplished by an argument? Or is it enlightening him to how his actions will affect his life negatively.

The best thing I think you could say in my opinion is this: Honey, it's very hard for me to get horny for a man who yells at me.

credamdóchasgra

I'll be honest. I may have been working against the goal (peace, love, happiness, respect).

I said some version of all the following statements to him in the past week:

"Honey, you have to control your temper. YOU'RE the only person who can control that."

"I've been making changes, you need to do the same."

"Be nicer to your mom. Just smile and pretend if you have to." (she was laid up in the hospital after surgery.)

"Stop telling your brother how to live his life, get off his case."

Telling. Instructing. blah blah blah
He shuts it off.
I may be perfectly valid and truthful in what I say, but he ain't hearing it, and it's counterproductive for me to talk at him.

He has accumulated an overriding sense of being "the bad guy" in my eyes.
That's not entirely my fault, but it is what it is right now.
It's not about fault, it's about understanding.

So...how to get him to understand MY feelings and make changes in himself...(without me telling, nagging, instructing, blah blah blah-ing)

Deep down he knows. He knows some of his actions affect my feelings, my responses, AND our relationship, thus HIS life, negatively.

He gets overtaken by a rant of "I'm not the bad guy and I'm sick of being called the bad guy!!!"

It's not just "horny" that I can't do, and that he wants.
It's positive feedback from me: affection, smiles, sweetness, humor, cuteness, all that nice stuff.
He loves that stuff, and when I don't jump right back into it after he rants, he *doesn't* like it.
But at THIS stage, he still pretends that it's all MY problem.

He knows better.
I can only hope that over time, and with me controlling MY reactivity and being honest about how I'M contributing good or bad, he can come around.

Hicks

Your husband is perfectly valid in telling you to keep is ipod charged also. But you don't like the disapproval expressed. Neither does he. You're in a vicous cycle.

Don't do things to him (criticize) that you don't like him doing to you. Allow him to make mistakes for example in how he treats his mother, brother... Just don't go there but be supportive of his decisions to do what he does.


If you say to your husband... Honey if you yell at me I don't want to give you positive feedback, sweetness, affection, smiles... He will think "I just don't understand women". If you relate his actions to your sexual desire he will get that connection immediately.

I still stand by this advice: Use your motivation to have a happier life and marriage to change how you yourself act towards him. If after a period of time he is not responding or changing it is then that you tell him that it can only work if both parties are willing to make the effort and the changes you expect are ABCD.

credamdóchasgra

I think he knows that sex decreases, along with other happy things, when yelling rages increase.
He knows I don't like it.
Guess I need to keep doing my best, and be patient.