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Am I Being Out of Line?

7K views 81 replies 25 participants last post by  nuclearnightmare 
#1 ·
My wife is a writer. As such she is involved with various writer groups... One led to a short EA that she got into and out of on her own (to her credit) when she realized it was wrong and what was happening. She's short, thin and very good looking for a woman of 52 and terribly naive when it comes to men and their intentions (another subject for another day). We are totally open about email and fb accounts and even our private journals are open to each other as we have no secrets between us.

So she has a male, married/retired (early 60's) writer compatriot and they have run a weekend writer's conference for the last few years together (with help from several other people). But after this last one they decided it was too much work for her as she just finished a novel and has a book contract.... His emails and the like seem to getting more "friendly" lately (but not over the top) and they will be at the same writer's conference about 100 miles away the weekend of the 15th/16th.

When the conference ends he wants to take her to dinner (and pay for it). Usually she goes out in a group of about 8 other writers at that time. He states he wants to go over some seminar ideas as she is teaching one in his place this summer.

For some reason this just strikes me wrong. Why can't they go out with the group, sit at the end of the table and discuss it? Why can't someone else tag along? Why is he paying for it? I have told her I'd rather not see her have this dinner, and why, the way it's set up but am not sure what she will choose (if he puts pressure on her I think she will probably go with him to dinner as they are working friends).

Am I being paranoid? Part of me tells me to have a little faith in her and part of me has heart pain over this.
 
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#2 ·
My wife is a writer. As such she is involved with various writer groups... One led to a short EA that she got into and out of on her own (to her credit) when she realized it was wrong and what was happening. She's short, thin and very good looking for a woman of 52 and terribly naive when it comes to men and their intentions (another subject for another day). We are totally open about email and fb accounts and even our private journals are open to each other as we have no secrets between us.

So she has a male, married/retired (early 60's) writer compatriot and they have run a weekend writer's conference for the last few years together (with help from several other people). But after this last one they decided it was too much work for her as she just finished a novel and has a book contract.... His emails and the like seem to getting more "friendly" lately (but not over the top) and they will be at the same writer's conference about 100 miles away the weekend of the 15th/16th.

When the conference ends he wants to take her to dinner (and pay for it). Usually she goes out in a group of about 8 other writers at that time. He states he wants to go over some seminar ideas as she is teaching one in his place this summer.

For some reason this just strikes me wrong. Why can't they go out with the group, sit at the end of the table and discuss it? Why can't someone else tag along? Why is he paying for it? I have told her I'd rather not see her have this dinner, and why, the way it's set up but am not sure what she will choose (if he puts pressure on her I think she will probably go with him to dinner as they are working friends).

Am I being paranoid? Part of me tells me to have a little faith in her and part of me has heart pain over this.
This speaks volumes.
 
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#3 ·
Sounds like a business dinner to me. If he wants her to teach one of his seminars a certain way, I can appreciate his wanting to talk to her in a private setting where they can focus and not be distracted. And since this is at his request, why would he not pay?

At the same time, if you are not comfortable, tell her. Ask if you can go along. Then you will know exactly what goes down.
 
#8 ·
When the conference ends he wants to take her to dinner (and pay for it). Usually she goes out in a group of about 8 other writers at that time. He states he wants to go over some seminar ideas as she is teaching one in his place this summer.
LOL!

Come on...
 
#10 ·
Well, not quite as bad as it sounds.

He was scheduled to teach on a specific topic and its in the program now. Now he cannot make it (going to buy some dog or something like that- he's a bit flaky) ad he asked her to teach the same seminar. As it's his subject and expertise, he has some specific ideas for it and so forth.

I just fail to see the need for a private dinner. He lives in the Seattle area and I don't know if he's making the 5+ hour drive home that night or has a motel for the evening. That's another concern.

See what my first betraying wife has done to me????? I now see everything thru a betrayed's glasses. I hate it.
 
#9 ·
This is a tough one. Since she admitted to an EA, I would be questioning her just as you are. But as a woman (also a novel writer) it would annoy me if my husband tried to meddle like this. Also, I am the "too nice" kind of woman who would have a hard time backing out of an engagement like the one your wife has agreed to. If I were her I would have asked you if it was ok before agreeing to it, but she probably assumed it would add fuel to a minor fire.

I would tell her exactly what you wrote in your post: "Part of me tells me to have faith in you, and part of me has heart pain over this." Then be silent. See what she says. Writers tend to be able to put themselves in others' shoes very easily. I wish you the best!
 
#13 ·
Boundary violation

Spouses with a history of EA, that are naive, that are unable to put their foot down, that succumb to pressure from opposite gender friends that are either equally oblivious to boundaries or evil to the core with an agenda to wreck your marriage and boff your wife are not welcome to take said spouse out to dinner no matter what the bogus excuse for an unnecessary evening dinner.

There is no need nor wisdom in having evening hour one on one meals with the opposite gender when married especially under said circumstances.

Wake up
 
#14 ·
You are in a rock and a hard place. But really it's your past lack of actions that brought you here. At this point you should tell her that in your opinion the main reason he wants to have dinner with you alone is to get into your pants, and that you are not comfortable with it or her close friendships with men in general, and that she has to decide what is most important to her in life.

Then let her choose and don't act any certain way. Don't negotiate with her.
 
#15 ·
The thing here that worries me is that your wife isn't someone who is comfortable standing up for herself.

It makes sense to me that they would schedule some time to review the course that she is taking over from him- sure, of course.

However, for any woman in business working with men, it is important that she also is able to realize when a guy is working a non-professional game and that she is comfortable shutting that down firmly, professionally, quickly. (BTW men should be able to do this too, but I think most men have the inner confidence and it's not an issue, generally speaking.)

So, if she goes and he puts on some moves, will she see it? Will she be able to shut it down? She has a history of EA- I can absolutely see what you're uncomfortable, BP.

Also, just personally, I would not let a man pay for a business meeting unless he was the business owner. Otherwise it would either be a business expense or we'd split the bill. That is just a clear-cut boundary to ensure that all parties realize that it would be a business dinner, not a personal get-together.

I'd look for a win-win here. She needs to be able to do what is required for professional success, and you need to be comfortable.

My recommendation would be to remind her that she only sees his writer group rarely and it might be more advantageous to go with her group of 8. That opportunity for networking is rare. It would not be wise to sacrifice that yearly event for something that could happen at any time. The social/professional networking is Part 1 of her win.

She could then meet up with the guy via Skype or Facetime, pretty much at any time. So she would still get the meeting she needs, Part 2 of her Win.

Your win: no dinner with just her and another guy. You are comfortable, Big Win.

That's just one idea. If you try to approach it as a Win-Win she will probably be more willing to work with you. My husband approached me, saying "I have no reason not to trust you, you have always been honest and have done nothing wrong. This is my issue because of my past (he was also a BS.) I need your help here" and we mapped out strategies/agreements for my business travel. It was the total opposite of "controlling."
 
#16 ·
After an affair of any kind, a WS can't engage in behaviors that risk trust again.

She had an affair in this exact environment and should never place her marriage at risk by taking chances in this area.

Private dinners should be out. Your marriage should be the priority if she wants to keep it, especially after she already seriously damaged it.

Being too "nice" is not nice at all when it gets you into crappy situations.
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#17 ·
IMO, once a spouse has cheated, which your spouse has (EA), they lose certain privileges that otherwise they would have in a relationship, and this situation would be one of them.

Private dinner with a guy who isn't her Dad or brother ? Nope, try again.

Her being naive is not an excuse.
 
#21 ·
She and I have had a couple of discussions about this and I will make it a bit more pointed when I get home tonight.

As any BS knows, when one has been betrayed it is so hard to establish trust for anyone. It makes me feel guilty sometimes as I 'spot check' up on her at times whenever I'm feeling something isn't right. Every little thing that looks suspicious makes me concerned- and I used to be "Mr. Trusting" until my first wife had her betrayals.

Some funny stories I could tell about how some of my suspicions were "right" but ended up being "wrong".
 
#22 ·
It's 2015... We live in a modern world with many modern methods of communication that do not necessitate an evening dinner alone. Phone calls, e-mail, Skype/Facetime, etc. He can accomplish what he needs to with your wife professionally in a variety of ways. He chose to invite her to dinner alone. Maybe his intentions are pure, maybe they're not. Regardless, if it makes you uncomfortable, there should be no debate. If she values you as her husband, she will respect that and address the situation accordingly.

There is no reason for her to share any of the intricacies of your marriage or it's ups and downs with this person. She can simply inform him that something came up and she is no longer available for dinner, but she can suggest to him any one of the above mentioned means of communication to accomplish what needs to be done. It really should be that simple.
 
#23 ·
I would agree with this in general, but when you're over 50 you tend to not adopt the new way of doing things. Some do, but most don't. I don't Skype and rarely text. If I want to communicate with someone I call or go see them. Heck, I even still send letters.
 
#24 ·
My H had an EA and dinners alone with females is now on the no-fly list. That contributed to the start of his A, so it's off the table. That was agreed upon by both of us during R. Dinner meetings hold a perception that other types of meetings do not. And he's paying! In my world, that sounds awfully lot like a date.

If she's already had an EA in this exact environment, and has trouble standing up for herself, she has no reason to go alone to a dinner with a man who you say has already sent borderline questionable communications.

You have already received some good suggestions for alternatives. Go with one of them. Be honest with your wife.

Here's the thing, it's no longer all about her. Sure, she may now be trustworthy and nothing will happen. However, it is 100% certain that you will be tense, nervous and upset the whole time she's away. When she comes back, you will wonder what may have happened. That's what happens to a BS. The FWS should want to limit that. It's called a consequence to having an affair.
 
#25 ·
Dinner meetings hold a perception that other types of meetings do not. And he's paying! In my world, that sounds awfully lot like a date.

If she's already had an EA in this exact environment, and has trouble standing up for herself, she has no reason to go alone to a dinner with a man who you say has already sent borderline questionable communications.
Agreed 100%.
 
#30 ·
For that I am taking her word for it. But I have my doubts.

Short version- fellow writer knew she also had good skills setting up a blog as not only has she done a few for herself but also wrote a book for setting up blogs for schools. He had been sending her some flattering emails and then wanted her to come to his place for a day to help him set up a blog. To that I forbid her to go. So they met at a coffee place and spent the afternoon setting up his blog. After that nothing. No 'thank you' emails… nothing. That really concerned me and I started monitoring but it is so easy to avoid being monitored… I found out they had met for some lunches and dinners and I was convinced they had a weekend together at the coast (but later confirmed they had not and my info was an incredible coincidence- and I went to great lengths to confirm that). But along the way she really felt things were going wrong with their "friendship and went to speak with a close friend of ours who counsels people at church and he told her to stop having any contact with this guy immediately- and she did. On the one hand I know she feels poorly about it all, but she has an incredible ability to compartmentalize and move forward. I think she developed it from a very abusive first husband.
 
#36 ·
Personally, I'd just let her decide. And expect full accountability of that.

If she thinks that making you worried after the admitted EA is worth it, I would find that very telling for you. Especially because there's little in it for her, and a lot in it for the other guy even if it's on the up and up.

I would also be curious why, after going through all the work extracting herself from an EA, she would even approach that kind of thing ever again. Even for just her own sake.

Very telling, this.
 
#41 ·
It's not about a wife being ordered around or restricted. Nor is it about someone who just can't find it in her to say "no." You mentioned you're both in your 50s? Mousy or not, she's a grown adult. A married, grown adult. Time to start behaving like one. Stop making excuses for her. People do want they want to do. If someone told her to jump off a cliff, would she be able to say no to that? I would assume so. So why can't she say no to a male colleague out of respect for her husband?

People want to throw theories and tactics around, but it's much more simplistic than that. The old adage, "actions speak louder than words" applies here. Tell her this meeting makes you uncomfortable. You can't chain her up in the basement. She has her own free will. If she chooses to go despite your feelings, then it's time to re-evaluate things.

Perhaps I missed this, but have you two been through marriage counseling? Especially after the EA? It seems that would be a benefit to you both. For you to have a safe environment to convey your levels of distrust given past indiscretions, for her to learn effective methods to set boundaries, and for the two of you to strengthen your bond as husband and wife. If she had an EA, and possibly a PA (though not confirmed), perhaps it's time to give this some thought.
 
#44 ·
I don't know your wife, but I do know women. There's no such thing as a naive woman. I mean that in principle not in raw numbers. Once you start thinking a woman is naive, you put her on a pedastal, and you turn a blind eye to situations where they should be open. Women are much more emotionally intelligent then men. Their intuition is much better. They can usually tell when a guy has interest in them. beyond the levels of friendship.
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#47 ·
You are her spouse. You are uncomfortable. That's it!
No if's ands or buts.
You are uncomfortable. She should strive to make you comfortable.
She had an EA? She has no say. You can be as controlling as you like.
It's your right. She doesn't like it? She can leave the marriage.
She wants to be resentful? You can leave the marriage.
A boundary is a boundary. Cross it and you get consequences.
 
#49 ·
So after we discussed things again last night I did lay down the law- if there is more then just the 2 of you, fine. Otherwise, it's a date and unacceptable. I will have her phone VAR set and I have a fair amount of confidence she will do as I request.
 
#66 ·
but what was her response back to you? e.g. did she say "OK. absolutely, I won't go if its just him." or was she more vague noncommital?

from what you said it doesn't sound like there's much stopping you from going with her. surely she knows you still have trust issues with her - justifiably. but you should focus on the chance you guys will have to be together, have a little fun, stay over a couple extra days....whatever. secondly you might be able to assess, to some degree, how she is acting around her male colleagues. get a feel for just how sincere her efforts to regain your trust are.....
 
#50 ·
You came here for advice. Let the record show I still think you are way too passive.

She should have told her friend a firm "no I wont be able to buy the book written by my EA partner as that might be misinterpreted by him as an excuse to encourage him to resume pursuit."

"Fair amount of confidence" shouldn't cut it.

It is your choice, but I would gather up all your buddies and intervene on you to put your foot down more firmly and agree to some OBVIOUS boundaries, no more ignoring the possibility of unsavory motives of other men, no more no contact violations and no one on one dates with the opposite gender. Business with the opposite gender needs to be conducting in a setting that is not able to be misinterpreted by anyone under any circumstances.
 
#54 ·
You came here for advice. Let the record show I still think you are way too passive...
I have heard that loud and clear from a few.

But I might remind you that this passive person beat one of my first wife's bf's and was going to to bf #3 but let him off the hook for a technical reason. I have also called this Sam guy and offered to come down and explain my position with my fists to his face.

I am not a passive person.

That said, this is a relationship and my wife is damaged goods from a very abusive first husband. Kicking her around is counter-productive. She is intelligent and we discuss and converse very well together. I get far more traction for communicating with her than otherwise (unlike my first wife).

I've laid my case out to her. She gets it. Now, it's up to her. But as I am also damaged goods from a betraying spouse that was the true love of my life so now this stuff always works me up. As such I have resorted to a VAR in her purse.

My other options are to go with her (I think a poor idea as it screams to her I have zero trust and have to babysit you) or do absolutely nothing (after being betrayed, this isn't an option as I will go nuts-o wondering. Also, if Sam or John get out of line she will be very hesitant to tell me). So this is, to me, my best option.
 
#51 ·
I think the var is a sneaky move. If you don't trust her, the honorable thing would be to come right out and tell her.
 
#52 ·
This is a very fair point.

But my response is this...

I do "trust" her, but I don't trust her ability to not be swayed by people she thinks are safe. What she thinks is safe I see red flags. So I remind her marriage may be about trust, and she is asking for some from me, but I have seen the other side and I know men angling in far better than she can.
 
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