General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
<rant>
I remember pulling out for my final cruise when I was in the Navy. I had a couple of cruises under my belt. My wife was pregnant. I did get to rotate off of sea duty just prior to my daughter being born.
Anyway, there were a couple guys in my shop that this was their first cruise. Both married with a couple of kids each. They had married their high school sweet hearts. Their wives had become close friends. Lovely ladies really. Very sweet and innocent. Certainly nice to look at. They were not drinkers or party girls. Their hubbys were definitely faithful nice guys.
So our wives saw us off at peir 12. Not a fun time. BUT, due to the tide or what not, we did not pull out on schedule. It was delayed two days. So I called my wife and she came and picked me up. We dropped these other guys home as well.
It was late in the evening when we got to their apartments in base housing.
Their apartments were dark. They checked with their neghbor and both their kids were there. The lady who lived there seemed strangley animated and really beside herself. My wife and I went on home. What I found out later was that the sweet little wives had decided to go out clubbing and drinking the very first night of thier hubbys cruise. I don;t know the real name of the club but it was referred to as the body exchange. Essentially they were not going to let thier husbands absence deter thier fun and sexual escapades. They each went for a Bigger, Better, Deal, BBD at their first opportunity.
It was painful for me during the cruise as they would come to me to help them interpret the mail they were getting from their wives. Not uncommon BTW for less experinced sailors to confide in others. Call it mentoring. It was much like this forum. A lot of BS coming from the wives about needing some fun ... Essentially the wives partied on for months living on their husbands benefits and needless to say these guys had to grow up fast and divorce them. They were nice guys. Loved thier wives and adored their children. They even stayed faithful. Go figure. Chumps I guess. I respected them.
I of course saw the other side of activities from other sailors who partied over seas like they were single. So this is not women bashing. Just all around sad from both genders. Men and women behaving badly.
When I was a younger sailor and before I was married I had plenty of married women hitting on me in clubs. Really. I guess I had game back then before I knew what game was. Talking mostly europe here. Women on vacation. Had more than one husband who wanted me to "date" their wives. Some of the posters here remind me of them quite frankly. UFB. And no. Too creepy for me.
Had fun with some party girls but essentially I was looking for a woman of substance. I eventually got lucky. I did not find her in bar.
I only post this because it probably shows some insight on why I am pretty discusted with girls ( or guys ) behaving badly. My personal makeup makes me notice the carnage that it does to others. I hate to see folks treat people who really care about them badly and yet turn their bodies and souls over to @$$holes and skanks. I am human so I understand we are not perfect. But I have made my share of mistakes for sure so I understand somewhat.
It just kills me though when folks play the trust card in these situations. It is very naive to think that even the strongest of us cannot be seduced when we are vulnerable. It usually takes a fall to realize that.
Ladies, I know many of you don't care but when you just disregard your husbands concerns about these meat market GNOs and rationalize it all away, the message you send to the person who cares about you the most in the world is that you value your urges to go after that BBD over them. Not about trust. It is about respect and yes love. I do hope it works out for your marriages, I really do.
I had a Friend whose wife had money as one of her five needs. No big deal. Some girls need that. So, manning up, he started his own business. Took a lot of his time. But his wife didn't like that so she went after the first mook who gave her some time. They ended up getting a divorce...he wasn't standing for that crap. Since his business didn't have a lot of equity when they divorced she didn't get much. Now, he's doing quite well for himself. Unfortunately, the WW is my wifes friend, so I still hear about how her ex is an a$$hole because he goes on vacations all the time and found himself a wonderful new woman. I have to bite my tongue when she's over because I feel like slapping her...but of course I would never do that.
Anyways, she's still with her new man, but I refuse to meet him (she's always trying to set up golf games with us. I actually told her I never want to meet him because, well, he's a douche bag for cheating on HIS wife with her).
I have no idea why your story reminded me of this story. Oh yeah! I remember. When it was happening, I told myself how fortunate I was that my wife wasn't like that. Boy, was I ever FKN wrong about that call! Posted via Mobile Device
One of my friends married the sweetest, nicest, shyest girl in the entire world. She was perfect, everyone was like wow you actually got her.
She finally found herself and became more outgoing. She found herself so much that she had 3 separate affairs and nobody was aware of it until she left with one of the guys.
The general reaction from everyone was, "She did what? Cheated on him and then left with some other guy, that can't be right."
Nobody ever saw it coming from her. Not saying your wife would do it but if she's not spending time with you, there's a reason she wants to be away from you as much as possible.
Unless you've got the plague there's no reason she can't do some of that stuff with you. Date nights!! Or maybe she doesn't have anytime for you her husband?
BTW this topic was beat to death in the ladies section and almost all guys said GNO at clubs was a no/no and the majority of women said GNO at a club was no big deal and guys were too controlling.
My H and I mutually decided that we would not go clubbing without each other. Neither really like dancing so we never go. No loss. If he went and didn't want me to go or vice versa, total double standard. But we actually have very strict 'guidelines' of acceptable behaviour and activities. We're very suited to each other that way as it doesn't feel like we are missing out. That said, we aren't joined at the hip. I do have girls nights out at a restaurant, coffee shop etc. And he golfs or goes to hockey games. We are do stuff together like golf, walks and things with kids...
I think you need to find someone who feels same way you do. Posted via Mobile Device
I had a Friend whose wife had money as one of her five needs. No big deal. Some girls need that. So, manning up, he started his own business. Took a lot of his time. But his wife didn't like that so she went after the first mook who gave her some time. They ended up getting a divorce...he wasn't standing for that crap. Since his business didn't have a lot of equity when they divorced she didn't get much. Now, he's doing quite well for himself. Unfortunately, the WW is my wifes friend, so I still hear about how her ex is an a$$hole because he goes on vacations all the time and found himself a wonderful new woman. I have to bite my tongue when she's over because I feel like slapping her...but of course I would never do that.
Anyways, she's still with her new man, but I refuse to meet him (she's always trying to set up golf games with us. I actually told her I never want to meet him because, well, he's a douche bag for cheating on HIS wife with her).
I have no idea why your story reminded me of this story. Oh yeah! I remember. When it was happening, I told myself how fortunate I was that my wife wasn't like that. Boy, was I ever FKN wrong about that call! Posted via Mobile Device
My H and I mutually decided that we would not go clubbing without each other. Neither really like dancing so we never go. No loss. If he went and didn't want me to go or vice versa, total double standard. But we actually have very strict 'guidelines' of acceptable behaviour and activities. We're very suited to each other that way as it doesn't feel like we are missing out. That said, we aren't joined at the hip. I do have girls nights out at a restaurant, coffee shop etc. And he golfs or goes to hockey games. We are do stuff together like golf, walks and things with kids...
I think you need to find someone who feels same way you do. Posted via Mobile Device
This is probably the best take away. Marrying someone with compatible values. You can still be your own person while being a partner.
Their apartments were dark. They checked with their neighbor and both their kids were there. The lady who lived there seemed strangely animated and really beside herself. My wife and I went on home. What I found out later was that the sweet little wives had decided to go out clubbing and drinking the very first night of their hubby's cruise. I don't know the real name of the club but it was referred to as the body exchange. Essentially they were not going to let their husbands absence deter their fun and sexual escapades. They each went for a Bigger, Better, Deal, BBD at their first opportunity.
Thanks for the debate folks. I have been following it. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back, but my work computers have new filters that are hitting TAM and it's hard to get time on the home PC.
I do believe that there are some women that can go to these places purely to dance/talk with each other, and not to flirt and party with strange men, basking in all of the male attention. I'm sure they and their husbands know who they are, that there is full disclosure on the way out the door, discussions of the evening when they get home, and a little checking in while out. I'm sure groundrules are agreed to and safe driving is discussed. And I'm SURE the dangers of drinking in an atmosphere populated by a large number of drunk male predators who EXPECT to get laid is discussed as well as how to handle themselves.
Like the ladies described in that quote by Entropy, and like the wives of all of the "control freaks" who responded to this thread, my wife didn't do any of that. My wife was secretive. My wife never told me where she went or who she met. Who bought her drinks, who she danced with, whether or not they got into strangers cars and went clubhopping. Nothing. I think most GNO's to clubs are handled that way. I nearly lost my wife to a predator because I didn't want to be controlling or jealous. Any question beyond "did you have fun" would, very skillfully, be handled in such a way that I was turned into a paranoid control freak. I am like most husband in this situation. I wanted to show that I could handle my wife having a little fun. Now, here I am dealing with it years later.
In those years since, she has not gone clubbing at all. It was short lived. She now goes out with friends as do I. She goes to dinner and movies and some local folk concerts with friends. She always tells me about it and I have no problems with where she goes. I'm actually quite secure on her nights out, considering what we'd gone through.
Now, if three young, attractive, school moms with strong personalities asked her to go nightclubbing some night, it would have been a hard decision. A decision, nonetheless, that probably would have been a "no". As a matter of fact, I don't think she would have even considered it. But a concert? Again, who would have a problem that? I had to acquiesce. Leading up to the event, there was full disclosure and communication. She was excited about the concert and a night out. I actually had no problem with it. Once she got home, however....
For someone with past (albeit short lived) hankerings to party and flirt with the boys, I think she found out that this was going to be an unexpected night of clubbing. A 50,000 seat meat market with a three hour party in the parking lot beforehand. They drank. They flirted, they partied. And once she saw that she was doing all that I had a problem with so many years ago, she knew she'd have a problem talking to me about it so she shut down when she got home. That secretiveness, elusiveness, and even a little lie or two gave the whole night the "home from the meat markets at 3AM" vibe I used to get. I thought this part of her life was over. When it hit again, I panicked a little and started this thread. It had been years since my wife partied with the boys. It brought home bad memories.
I don't expect this to be a problem. I think it was like a reformed gambling addict that was unexpectedly dumped in a casino for a gambling bender for one night. She's not necessarily going to go back, (it was just a one-time fluke, after-all) but if she wanted to she could. Because (in this hypothetical example) this wasn't a "Casino" per say. Just a makeshift room filled up with gaming tables, not a casino. And there are similar ones all over the area.
So yes, Entropy. I am asking about "alternative meat markets" and how boundaries are defined in them. I mentioned a few in a previous post. I'll add another. I think it was this forum where a husband posted of a similar problem with his wife partying with the boys from work at clubs when their late shift was over. One "compromise" the wife offered, and he was ready to accept, was that the partying would be at gay clubs instead of straight clubs. Well, since this is my issue, I devoted about 20 minutes to Google searches of "straight chicks at gay clubs". It took me 20 minutes to realize that the parties were a LOT more fun for straight girls at gay clubs and they had just as much of a chance, if not better, to get laid there than a straight club. If I could find that out in 20 minutes, I'm guessing the party girl already knew that and was ready to go. In essence lying to him to continue her fun.
Any event that has a meat market feel to it has to be handled very carefully. The tailgate party before a football game. Imagine that carload of babes drinking just a few cars down. Big rock concerts. If there is drinking, socializing, and your wife is there with a group of women, there will be men hitting on them. How will they react? I meet people all the time at such events. ALWAYS men. If I were flirting and partying with the girls all night, my wife wouldn't like it. And with me, there is less of a chance that these girls I (don't) talk to would want to bang me than there is with the guys my wife parties with wanting into her panties. So why allow it to happen?
This is the longest post I have ever written on a chat forum. And I didn't even concentrate on what could happen if, even in the STRONGEST of marriages, the meat market atmosphere takes over and that good wife makes a huge "drunken mistake". These places exist for a reason and they don't call them meat markets for nothing. And alternatives abound.
I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, mostly when he's out of town and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!! Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened
Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.
Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married. Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.
------------- some boys take a beautiful girl
and hide her away from the rest of the world
I wanna be the one to walk in the sun
oh girls they wanna have fun
oh girls just wanna have
-------------
All I can say is that I learned a lot about women from having two daughters. One was more challenging than the other. It sounds condescending but there is a girl inside every wife. We love that about them and it can be no end of concern.
These GNOs seems eerily important to some women. To where more creative venues pop up that offer the opporuntiy with some plausible denial. There is a pack mentality to it so the support is there.
I did not know about the gay bar deal. It sounded plausible to me. I might have fallen for that one.
In the clubs it is a bad enough thing but if you add the element of travelling where there is a guy at the wheel and not a sober woman that would concern me. Not just the drunk driving which is a real concern but the whole control issue. Meaning groups of guys and girls club hopping or whatever. The car can go any where. The drunk mom in the back seat with some guy. Yeah, sounds paranoid but stuff happens. A woman would feel so stupid after the fact that she would likely keep it a secret or I guess just flat not know what was happening for that matter. Maybe I am reaching here.
I could see the above happening when guys and girls decide to party after work at the bar and then go bar hopping or proceed to clubbing. Part of PUA 101 is to isolate the woman from the group. So hey lets go get something to eat and we can come back here later can be on the agenda. We combine the work environment which are where many EAs are started with the bar scene. It is one thing for a quick happy hour drink or two and then on your way home, BUT it is also an opprtunity for some shennaigans if one is so inclined. It does not have to start out as the plan, but alcohol loosens folks up. It is when these become late night things that one really has to be concerned. When I go to these things I am used to many of the womens husbands dropping by. Not a bad idea.
In the above I would insist that I get invited along often if not always. Taking my wife home when I go of course.
So for alternative venues when there is a lot of partying I would be concerned about the transportion arrangements as well as the on premises stuff. Chain of custody if you will.
How about something more common these days. Trips to Vegas or Casinos in general where the women stay over night for a few days. Vacations with girl friends. They can be very innocent or not.
Conventions are another one. Business trips. My colleagues are partying people. I have to watch myself. We have to know what are boundsries are and not go blowing by them.
I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, mostly when he's out of town and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!! Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened
Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.
Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married. Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.
Yes your hubby has ample opportunity for shennaigans for sure.
I travel on business as well. The folks I travel with are all married.
We drink but are not hitting on women. Maybe your hubby does. Idunno.
We go to bars and not clubs of course. Some Guiness.
You would agree there is an added element of danger with hubby out of town. No? Just a little?
Not judging you and I get it, but you just indicated you would have different behavior with your hubby present than if he was there. Yes?
So you go out to GNOs with girls who are not married. Age 23.
Sweet!!
Do you wear your wedding ring? Loaded question because actually a wedding ring is a target. You will likely get hit on more than others by wearing it, though if they notice you have a tan line an no ring they know you are looking for some action. Some strange.
I admit it is fun and exciting to act single and be out with other single girls flirting with guys.
It is natrual for women to have these urges. They just may not understand or care what drives those urges. They just feel really good.
The fact you avoid dancing is something. I don't have to ask you then if you do the grinding thing.
But what if you really chat with a guy that has some real game?
He is pretty hot, but really you just flat connect with him.
You assume your husband needs to know the same thing. Idunno. Is it the same? Is he chatting up women on his trips? I don't know. Do you? Is he out with single guys or married guys who act single on trips?
Yes your hubby has ample opportunity for shennaigans for sure.
I travel on business as well. The folks I travel with are all married.
We drink but are not hitting on women. Maybe your hubby does. Idunno.
We go to bars and not clubs of course. Some Guiness.
You would agree there is an added element of danger with hubby out of town. No? Just a little?
Not judging you and I get it, but you just indicated you would have different behavior with your hubby present than if he was there. Yes?
So you go out to GNOs with girls who are not married. Age 23.
Sweet!!
Do you wear your wedding ring? Loaded question because actually a wedding ring is a target. You will likely get hit on more than others by wearing it, though if they notice you have a tan line an no ring they know you are looking for some action. Some strange.
I admit it is fun and exciting to act single and be out with other single girls flirting with guys.
It is natrual for women to have these urges. They just may not understand or care what drives those urges. They just feel really good.
The fact you avoid dancing is something. I don't have to ask you then if you do the grinding thing.
But what if you really chat with a guy that has some real game?
He is pretty hot, but really you just flat connect with him.
You assume your husband needs to know the same thing. Idunno. Is it the same? Is he chatting up women on his trips? I don't know. Do you? Is he out with single guys or married guys who act single on trips?
I don't see a big problem with acting different when my hubby is around. I have male friends that I focus on more intently (in conversation) when he's not there, just because I don't want hubby to feel bad (do I want to watch him engrossed in convo with a pretty woman? no. Does he probably do that sometimes when I'm not around? yes, and that's fine).
I don't have sexual feelings for any of those guys, but I recognize hubby could get the wrong idea if he saw me deeply involved in a convo with another man.
I always wear my wedding ring and the guys in Austin actually see it as a turn OFF I was waiting at a bus stop after a night at the bars and these 2 drunk guys started to chat me up (and I distractedly replied to them, just to pass the time and because I was a bit vulnerable there all alone) but once I flashed the ring they were like, Whoa! Never mind!
I know lots of people (especially women in my hubby's home country of Argentina) see a wedding ring as a turn on, but those people are just the most pathetic excuses for adults I've ever seen. If I think a guy is hitting on me because of that, I'll usually end the convo right then and there, because: ICK! Low self-esteem, probably shady alert!
And is it too naive to think that sometimes a guy at a bar MIGHT *just* want to have a good convo with me?? (Probably is) Even if he doesn't *just* want that, and we end up having a good convo and calling it a night, no numbers or names or facebook followups, what's the big deal? Should my hubby be the only man in my life that I ever have a meaningful convo with? He and I both have lots of interests, not all of them the same, so should I only ever be able to talk about his interests, with him?
I'm a bit a nerd so the guys with my kind of "game" I'm more likely to find on a school campus, not out in a bar. And generally, if I sense that a guy at a bar doesn't really want to have a convo and is just out for tail, I won't have anything to talk to him about anyway. If, on the other hand, I meet a guy who's a physicist and can tell me a lot about some interesting research he's doing (I'm not kidding!) then I will definitely spend the evening chatting and leave by thanking him for the good convo, before heading to bed quite happy that I learned something new and connected with a new person, even considering I will never see or talk to him again.
I don't see a big problem with acting different when my hubby is around. I have male friends that I focus on more intently (in conversation) when he's not there, just because I don't want hubby to feel bad (do I want to watch him engrossed in convo with a pretty woman? no. Does he probably do that sometimes when I'm not around? yes, and that's fine).
I don't have sexual feelings for any of those guys, but I recognize hubby could get the wrong idea if he saw me deeply involved in a convo with another man.
I always wear my wedding ring and the guys in Austin actually see it as a turn OFF I was waiting at a bus stop after a night at the bars and these 2 drunk guys started to chat me up (and I distractedly replied to them, just to pass the time and because I was a bit vulnerable there all alone) but once I flashed the ring they were like, Whoa! Never mind!
I know lots of people (especially women in my hubby's home country of Argentina) see a wedding ring as a turn on, but those people are just the most pathetic excuses for adults I've ever seen. If I think a guy is hitting on me because of that, I'll usually end the convo right then and there, because: ICK! Low self-esteem, probably shady alert!
And is it too naive to think that sometimes a guy at a bar MIGHT *just* want to have a good convo with me?? Even if he doesn't *just* want that, and we end up having a good convo and calling it a night, no numbers or names or facebook followups, what's the big deal? Should my hubby be the only man in my life that I ever have a meaningful convo with? He and I both have lots of interests, not all of them the same, so should I only ever be able to talk about his interests, with him?
I'm a bit a nerd so the guys with my kind of "game" I'm more likely to find on a school campus, not out in a bar. And generally, if I sense that a guy at a bar doesn't really want to have a convo and is just out for tail, I won't have anything to talk to him about anyway. If, on the other hand, I meet a guy who's a physicist and can tell me a lot about some interesting research he's doing (I'm not kidding!) then I will definitely spend the evening chatting and leave by thanking him for the good convo, before heading to bed quite happy that I learned something new and connected with a new person, even considering I will never see or talk to him again.
What is the approximate value of e? Don't tease me.
Austin is a great town. One of my favorites. I am a nerd for sure. Actually it is nerds who use this Game becasue they have to.
I am pretty safe in bars ... generally. I should add I don't go to bars unless my wife is with me or I am on company business. I know my limits but I love a good conversation with an intelligent woman. I am not going to start up a conversation with a stranger. It would more likely be with a colleague. The danger is not the "sexual" attraction per se. It is the emotional attraction that is most dangerous for me. I have to be concerned because rather than the alcohol making her look more attractive the conversation can do the same thing. So I have to watch my boundaries carefully and be brutally honest with myself. My friends know me and I have told them to watch my back. I guess that makes me weak but to assume one can not be seduced is folly. We all have our kryptonite.
I think you are doing a lot more flirting in your situation to balance out the flirting your hubby is doing. You are playing with fire for sure.
I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, mostly when he's out of town and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!! Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened
Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.
Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married. Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.
I'm glad you're both comfortable with clubbing without each other. But I'll tell you, from what I've studied over two years on these forums, you are both playing with fire. The odds that both of you spends as much time in these environments as you say you do and nothing inappropriate has gone on is pretty small. Congratulations for keeping it clean. But even IF both of you haven't done anything inappropriate, the odds are that it WILL happen.
You KNOW your husband doesn't chat up the girls? You've NEVER taken your flirting to a level that he would have SERIOUS problems with if he knew? I find that almost impossible to believe. And as the years go on it is almost guaranteed one of you will make a friendship or act in a way that you wish you hadn't.
It just doesn't compute, from all I've read, that your marriage can be as strong as you like to think it is if you each spend as much time in environments known for hook-ups as you do. I'm not sure you're being totally honest here. I'm also think yo may be a little naive about what your husband does when he's out.
You guys both have, as a common interest, drinking at bars and meeting people but you don't do it together? Hmmm....
I checked some of her other posts to get some insight... hope thats not creepy. And indeed the hubby seems to be a heck of a flirt. Some of her actions may be in response to his behavior.
Not picking on her, just pointing out that she is indeed dealing with issues and what she sees as her own jealousy. She may very well have reason to be jealous. Hubby invited a girl friend along on a vacation that the wife is paying for. She iinvited a girl friend of hers. So this dude is going on vaction with three hotties. I can't figure out why they just don't go together by themselves. Why does there need to be others? I think this is related to this bar socializing thing.
Lotsa danger here. She may instinctively be seeking out her options without a conscious thought to it.
Re: Girls Night Out - Jealous again. 
