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Be more assertive or pander?

16K views 198 replies 25 participants last post by  MattMatt 
#1 ·
It'd take too long to go into the finer details, so I'll keep them brief -

I cheated (not sex, but it was still cheating). One night, not an affair. I went home to my wife and admitted to it straight away.
We went to counselling, talked through the problems we'd had in the relationship, and things improved.

It's almost 3 years down the line. I've basically given up on having a life of my own, I rarely see my friends, as my wife hates the idea of me going out.

I'm invited to a night away with a group of friends next weekend, I've not mentioned it to my wife yet, I know she'll say she doesn't want me to go. I know she'll become hysterical at the thought of it. But I really want to go, I think it'll be a really good night out. I've passed up on many other nights out and social things with friends in order to show that she's the most important person in my life, and that I want us to be together.

So, what to do? Do I go, or do I continue to pander to my wife's insecurities? I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. If I go, she'll be miserable (3 years down the line or not, I know she still struggles with what happened), if I don't then I'll never end up doing anything, I'll just continue to pass up on my friends until eventually they stop asking me to join them.
 
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#2 ·
I cheated (not sex, but it was still cheating). One night, not an affair. I went home to my wife and admitted to it straight away.
Explain, please.

Also, were you out w/ any of your friends when this happened?
 
#6 ·
I agree with the others. That said sitting on this since you've been invited out, waiting until the proverbial last minute to ask/discuss this with her isn't going to work in your favor.

You will need to fill in some blanks mentioned above re: the cheating.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the replies.

OK - to be a little more specific about the cheating. I was on a night out with friends (though a different group of friends than I'd be going with next weekend), and went back to a girls flat with her. We kissed a bit and fooled around, but there was no sex. It was a girl I'd never met before, and I've never met/heard from her since.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the replies.

OK - to be a little more specific about the cheating. I was on a night out with friends (though a different group of friends than I'd be going with next weekend), and went back to a girls flat with her. We kissed a bit and fooled around, but there was no sex. It was a girl I'd never met before, and I've never met/heard from her since.
Dude.

You picked up a strange woman in a bar and went home with her. Pretty much anything after that is just details. You were unfaithful to your wife.

That underlined bit about you not having sex with her? Yeah, head on over to the Coping with Infidelity section of this site and get a lesson on what 99.9% of cheaters say when they get caught. Hint: It's that they "just kissed", or "just fooled around a little bit", but "there was no sex".... So, basically, you've given your wife the one answer guaranteed to make anyone who's ever known anything about cheating think you're a liar.

No wonder she's still a little untrusting. You've got a track record of being a lot untrustworthy!

Sure, put your foot down. Stop "pandering" to your wife's irrational insecurities. 'Cause that's bound to build trust, right? Are you trying to break up your marriage? Take your wife with you if you want to go out. Or stay home and have a date night. Either way, go find a really good MC, one with a history of helping couples heal after infidelity, and book you two in for a few sessions. Clearly, she's not over it (and she shouldn't be) and you're starting to get all sulky and resentful about doing what it takes to rebuild your marriage after you blew it up.

:slap:
 
#9 ·
Sorry dude, you lost the right to plausible deniability.

If you go, you'll be putting her through hell again so you can go have some fun. They're not insecurities, they're her realities.

Doesn't sound like a loving thing a guy that is trying to reconcile would do.

3 years... drop in the bucket. Some things take a lifetime to undo, if then.
 
#11 ·
I have read some Marriage Consolers write that the worst thing you can do is tell your spouse that you cheated if she does not know. They say that you are getting rid of your guilt to make yourself feel better, at the expense of a lifetime of distrust and worry for your wife. There is a saying that what the eyes do not see, cannot hurt the heart, especially since you said no sex was involved. Perhaps it was wiser to just deal with the guilt and not do it again rather than upheave your marriage? I do understand the crushing guilt you felt then the need to tell her but it may be best to spare her.
 
#12 · (Edited)
You don't change your own reasonable and honest behaviors for someone else's comfort at the expense of your enjoying your life. All you get for doing so is a nice bucket of resentment which will torpedo your relationship later, usually in spectacular fashion.

So you explain the importance of socializing to her and agree to reasonable steps that may help her anxiety. For example, being available for a call at a moment's notice without negativity, plainly visible plans communicated by proper friends (ie texts discussing event), and opting for events involving other married *men* she has a degree of trust in, and locations that are not meat markets (the stodgy pub hangout with a bunch of married friends vs going to the club with single guys).

She doesn't have to like everything you do. You have to let her choose whether she wants to stay with the things she doesn't like. You have to live your life for you, not her.

Allow her a measure of influence and accommodation, but absolutely do not pander. It's been three years and she's not past it, she's probably never going to be... and why should she? She gets full control of you with it. You don't have to learn how to trust someone again when you have control of them.
 
#18 ·
I think that there is a difference between letting x amount of time to pass in the hopes that s/he gets over it, pandering and ignoring. Reconciliation requires active mending of trust WHILE living ones life by slowly reintegrating activities in safe ways, like having your spouse join you when you visit with friends, being very available by cell phone...
 
#22 ·
At some point there has to be some trust extended. I don't think this idea of making it up to the betrayed your whole life long is realistic.

I think you are a sub because of your emotional dependency, not because of how you manage your money.

OP, talk to your wife. Sit down and talk honestly and openly. Explain your need. Ask her what she needs to feel safe. But explain that there has to be some trust extended at some point if you are ever to have a sustainable relationship.
 
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#23 ·
At some point there has to be some trust extended. I don't think this idea of making it up to the betrayed your whole life long is realistic.
You clearly have never been cheated on.

He doesn't make her trust him. He demonstrates he's trustworthy, and if she wants, she gives him back her trust.

She will or she won't. But that's her call, not his.

I can tell you this -- I wouldn't. If my wife went home with another guy, made out with him, and claimed she didn't have sex with him...

And for some strange reason I stayed with her...

All weekends away would be done, forever. Unless I came to her and offered it back. If she didn't like that, she could leave. And I'd be happy to see her go.
I think you are a sub because of your emotional dependency, not because of how you manage your money.
You're missing the point.

#1 he's gambling his marriage on a weekend away to play with his friends. When it's been demonstrated that he cannot handle this responsability. This is akin to me letting my son have his swiss army knife back after I catch him running after his brother with it. Responsability is a two way street. You can't just expect it.

#2 he's asking her to go through a weekend of hell for his fun playtime. He figure's he's earned it. So what he's doing is ****ting all over whatever empathy he's demonstrated (or perhaps not demonstrated) for the emotional pain.
OP, talk to your wife. Sit down and talk honestly and openly. Explain your need. Ask her what she needs to feel safe. But explain that there has to be some trust extended at some point if you are ever to have a sustainable relationship.
I agree with this. Communication is good.

But be prepared to hear and respect a "no."
 
#24 ·
I think we see it differently. And no, neither Dug nor I have cheated on each other.

Cheating can happen at any time, not just on weekends away. At some point, I think there has to be some trust extended. Trying to control people seems like a lost cause to me.
 
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#25 ·
OP there are ways to create safety for your spouse even in bar situations. I think a good start is to no longer call what you did "not an affair."

Your wife was seriously traumatized and I do not see your understanding of that here because you are minimizing what you did.

I recommend www.affairrecovery.com to help you build an understanding of the depth of trauma this created for her. A main reason for her being "stuck" from an educated guess of mine is lack of empathy on your part.

I walked this road on both sides and until you can be honest with yourself you will remain in "jail." Want out.... get educated on her trauma and learn to handle her with true empathy. Assertiveness can come AFTER you lay a foundation of empathy.
 
#28 ·
Well, I am not seeing the control part on his end, I guess. I can appreciate the lack of empathy, though.

I don't think she is trying to be controlling on purpose, in some sort of evil way. I think she just wants to feel safe with him.

But I don't think we are going to feel safe if it requires us to try to control someone else, especially long term.

If she needs him to never take a weekend away again, and he can live with that, good enough. If not, they probably need to sit down and have a serious talk about the direction of the relationship.
 
#29 ·
That's the part she is missing. She cannot create empathy for her in him. That is HIS heavy lifting in this reconciliation. How to be empathetic to the degree that she willingly lays down control. Then once he has done that and she still is unwilling, then assertiveness enters the pic, not before.
 
#31 ·
OK.

Going to get a bit personal.

What we learned in MC is that the act of betraying trust is itself a form of control. Because there's the implicit breaking of the rules by one party with the expectation that the other party still conform to the rules.

If the one that broke the trust admits it and asks to be taken back, it's another form of control. Because they're playing on the feelings of the one that was betrayed - love, history, etc. And there's a fundamental 'unburdening' of guilt from the betrayer onto the betrayed.

If the one that broke the trust doesn't admit it, it's a deceptive form of control. Because the betrayed doesn't get to make up their own mind.

There's one way out of this: if the betrayor comes clean, offers to leave the relationship gracefully, and if the betrayed doesn't want that, the betrayor will do what it takes for as long as it takes. And be there through the ****ty times with the betrayed. The anger, the anxiety, all that. On the betrayed's timeline.

Because... and this is what many people that break bonds of trust don't get... they caused the trauma. It's easier for betrayers often to get over it, because they can rationalize, justify, and they've unburdened themselves of guilt. Like walking out of a confession booth.

Then, quite often, the betrayer after some amount of time says to the betrayed... "get over it."

And this is a GIANT form of control. Not only is it loaded with "you shouldn't feel this way" (control), it's loaded with "I shouldn't have to play by the rules I agreed to any more" (control), it's also loaded with "If you love me you should trust me even though I already broke your trust" (control).

In it's way, it's a mind-**** version of DARVO. You have your denial - "wasn't an affair" and "it was 3 years ago." You have your attacking by reversing victim and offender - "you should trust me" and "you're trying to control me."

It's quite common, evidently, for those that are actually doing the controlling to claim that they're the one being controlled.

All of this is fixed with a pretty simple solution.

Empathy.

Which, of course, is going to take a lot of accountability, sincerity, responsibility, and being a grown up.

All of which seems to be in short supply here.
 
#33 ·
Well, looks like there may be more going on here than I ever would have guessed.

It does seem to me that you have to look at why someone cheats. A woman who cheated because her hand was forced into marriage (even subtly), a woman who cheats because she did not realize she was bisexual, a woman who cheated because she was lonely and all her efforts to engage her husband's attention proved fruitless -- all these women need to look at whether or not it is worth it to have to console the man and be at his disposal the rest of her life (if that is what he needs).

OP, take a look at Blossom's posts. Are you lacking in empathy? Could you develop some?

If you cannot, maybe it is time to release your wife so she can find someone who can meet those emotional needs in her.
 
#34 ·
Good point, blossom.

Triggers. Or as I like to call it, the minefield.

You are going to have to be sensitive until the end of time of accidentally stepping on a mine and causing an explosion. The explosion will come in many ways -- anger, tears, distance, all kinds of things. That will make the betrayer angry. Because it will feel like punishment. When it quite often isn't.

You need to back off when you step on the mine and make your partner explode. Help them defuse it... and not step back there again if you can.

And you need to do that if you're going to stay -- because you're the one that planted the mines. Don't ask her to defuse them for you when you're the one that put them there.
 
#41 ·
What does your wife get out of being mad at you and manipulating you for three years? What an earth could be so important that it's vital to her to stay this way for this long? I look at behavior like this as a kind of hoarding. It's obsessive compulsive anger driven anxiety complex that's self sustaining. She probably thinks less about you and what you did than she does admiring her own obsession with it.
 
#57 ·
Ok, you went to MC. I don't think either of you went to MC long enough.

After cheating, your wife WILL feel insecure. Insecure in the relationship. That's your fault, buddy, not hers.

Reconciliation should be about rebuilding that secure relationship. In 3 years, that clearly hasn't happened. It may be because you haven't done enough, it may be due to her not letting go. It's likely a combination of the two.

In any healthy relationship, you should be able to go out with your friends. Yes.

Getting to the place where your wife is OK with that, with boundaries, is the goal. She needs to understand that it needs to happen eventually.

HOW you two get to that point probably requires more MC. Before your night outs happen.
 
#62 ·
And for the record it takes 2 to 5 years to recover from an affair ON AVERAGE... depending on MANY variables. Your ability to empathize and own your actions, OP, are two of those variables.

Sorry D8... I just am not hearing that from this op.. if he comes back and expands it might affect my perspective, but right now I see a gap.
 
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#63 ·
As far as semantics go, the most important perspective of what to call his cheating is that of his wife.

If she has ever referred to it as "an affair", OP should too, always. And should never say it wasn't, as that will feel like he's minimizing and rationalizing.

If OP went to OW's flat on an overnight GNO, he should not expect to go another overnight GNO until he has done numerous GNO's and came home immediately. Even if it means an expensive cab ride or some other inconvenience. The larger the inconvenience, the better.

If his previous GNO's did not include frequent calls home, he should be calling her on the hour, every ever, if necessary.

He should take wifey's brother, or some other guy SHE trusts on the first few. He should make sure wifey knows all of these guys and has been invited to things with them first.

These are steps that I think are completely reasonable. I would bet she would agree, but it's important he understands what SHE needs in order to be comfortable with him fulfilling HIS needs.

And if they can't come to an agreement - end it.
 
#64 ·
The thoughtful answers given in this thread have helped me somewhat in a decision I'm trying to make.
A man I know is a year into reconciliation. When I look at the situation from the outside I see the BS wife using the situation to forward her decades long campaign to move the marriage from sex starved to sexless. I suspect her of false reconciliation. I'm trying to decide whether to say anything to the WS husband. Thinking in terms of 2 - 5 years makes me think give it a chance and see. There are signs of genuine affection.
On the other hand if she is willing to reconcile only on the terms of his complete celibacy, should he really be investing in such an empty relationship? On the other hand 10 x per year was about the pre-incident frequency. So perhaps he would consider such an offer.
For what it's worth the incident involved pornography.
For your peace of mind, I'm pretty sure he doesn't need, would not be helped by, my observations. My initial thinking is to stay out of it.
MN
 
#90 ·
Maybe not. But reading the posts here may give him a different pov.
 
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