I've wanted to write about this topic (transparency) ever since a long ago post on the subject infuriated me because it was true, and I didn't want it to be.
I'm going to paraphrase here but - what this person basically said was: Genuine transparency, REAL transparency can only be given. It cannot be demanded. It cannot be taken from someone else. It's not about control, it's about trust.
It's ironic that the type of (mechanical) transparency typically discussed on TAM is the polar opposite of the real deal. Because mechanical transparency is typically imposed by a distrustful partner. This is totally different than voluntarily letting someone deep into your mind and heart, which is the ultimate demonstration of trust.
Mechanical transparency is usually driven by the jet wash of distrust that follows some type of betrayal. It's an attempt to regain a sense of control. And it's characterized by an Orwellian level of surveillance. The result is of course entirely mechanical. It pertains to (with) WHO, (doing) WHAT, WHEN and WHERE. This transparency is achieved via phone apps, gps tools of various sorts and the sharing of passwords.
That's not to say mechanical transparency is inherently bad. M2 and I fully share our passwords and lock codes for convenience. If she needs me to look something up in her email or vice versa, we can do so. And I'm not perfect. M2 did something once that I believed gave me 'reasonable cause' to read her emails. And because of that incident, I did just that - one time.
I can't speak to her actions. Maybe she routinely reads my stuff. That's ok, I have nothing to hide. When we exchanged those codes and passwords, we did so freely and without any rules of engagement or constraints.
The rest of this thread is about TRUE transparency. True transparency is about WHY. It's about feelings and beliefs. It's about stuff you can't get from a GPS log. Stuff you can ONLY get from a partner who actively trusts you. It's a voluntary act by a partner who overcomes their fear of being more fully known.
With that as context, this is my question. What kinds of things does your partner do that encourage or discourage your transparency with them. And what do you believe you do, to encourage or discourage their transparency with you?
Conan,
Me too. Except - I was the angry one. And yes, I often got angry because I didn't understand. But the anger, made it impossible to understand. It was doubly destructive. Caused M2 to be less transparent and caused me to be less understanding.
I remember the first time I realized how incredibly jealous M2 was. How furious I was as I ran through memory after memory of situations where she had intentionally created havoc - solely due to jealousy.
It was a full month before I said a word to her on the subject. And by the time I spoke, I was no longer angry with her. Actually I felt sorry for her. So what I said was: It seems like you feel bad, when you feel 'left out'. That must be hard.
And FWIW, if I had spoken 'in the moment' a month earlier, filled with righteous indignation I would have said: I'm happy for you, when you're happy. It doesn't matter what the source of your happiness is.
You on the other hand, are ONLY happy for me, if you are the main source of my happiness. That's not just selfish, it's toxic.
So - here's the thing. I'm glad I waited a month. Because - M2 - has brought me more happiness than all the other people in my life combined. Yes it's true that she's jealous. It's also true that - she doesn't want to be that way - she just IS that way.
I've wanted to write about this topic (transparency) ever since a long ago post on the subject infuriated me because it was true, and I didn't want it to be.
I'm going to paraphrase here but - what this person basically said was: Genuine transparency, REAL transparency can only be given. It cannot be demanded. It cannot be taken from someone else. It's not about control, it's about trust.
And I'm going to go WAAAAAAY out on a limb here, and maybe I've been reading too much Esther Perel, but I don't think this is actually a good idea.
Too much transparancy in the grey matter can kill desire.
Everyone has a secret garden, sexually. I can let my wife in, and then escort her right back out if I want. Or not let her in at all.
There's all kinds of stuff I'm NEVER going to be transparent with her about.
And that's OK. It's my stuff. My grey matter is mine.
And there's all kinds of stuff she's NEVER going to be transparent with me about.
And that's OK. It's her stuff. It's her grey matter.
I don't own her fantasies. Her attractions to other men. Her darkest desires, or fears, or daydreams. Those are hers.
She may let me into them, but I don't pay rent and get right of way. I'm a guest -- and need to act like a good one.
With that as context, this is my question. What kinds of things does your partner do that encourage or discourage your transparency with them. And what do you believe you do, to encourage or discourage their transparency with you?
#1 Expect too much transparency and it will kill transparency.
#2 Be too insecure about stuff (especially sex stuff) and you'll kill transparency.
#3 expect it but not offer it.
#4 not realize that too much of this will bring a possability (perhaps probability) that all the mystery and magic and delight in your marriage will go poof!
Love is about having. Desire is about wanting. There is a balance.
And I'm going to go WAAAAAAY out on a limb here, and maybe I've been reading too much Esther Perel, but I don't think this is actually a good idea.
Too much transparancy in the grey matter can kill desire.
Everyone has a secret garden, sexually. I can let my wife in, and then escort her right back out if I want. Or not let her in at all.
There's all kinds of stuff I'm NEVER going to be transparent with her about.
And that's OK. It's my stuff. My grey matter is mine.
And there's all kinds of stuff she's NEVER going to be transparent with me about.
And that's OK. It's her stuff. It's her grey matter.
I don't own her fantasies. Her attractions to other men. Her darkest desires, or fears, or daydreams. Those are hers.
She may let me into them, but I don't pay rent and get right of way. I'm a guest -- and need to act like a good one.
#1 Expect too much transparency and it will kill transparency.
#2 Be too insecure about stuff (especially sex stuff) and you'll kill transparency.
#3 expect it but not offer it.
#4 not realize that too much of this will bring a possability (perhaps probability) that all the mystery and magic and delight in your marriage will go poof!
Love is about having. Desire is about wanting. There is a balance.
In my opinion transparency needs to happen with trust. Some want to know little about thier partner and some want to know all. For those who want to know all you have to be responsible stewards of that information given. In other words can't punish for things you are asking for.
I think you need to determine who you are and what you need early on in relationships. I need disclosure and transparency, I need to have it and to give it so I do both responsibly.
With that as context, this is my question. What kinds of things does your partner do that encourage or discourage your transparency with them. And what do you believe you do, to encourage or discourage their transparency with you?
I'm smitten with my wife still after 19 years together. I think she's a good person and not just to me but to everyone in her life. She deserves to be treated good in return and transparency is a way I can show it. Except she trusts me so even though I've given her all of my passwords, she's never snooped that I'm aware of. Honestly the only time I've ever seen her get concerned was when she saw some of the thread titles I was looking at on TAM. Can't blame her for that given the messed up topics here.
There's this store I love to walk around in - Swarovski. I never buy anything but I love their crystal figurines. When I'm in a store like that, surrounded by expensive, fragile things, I move slowly and carefully.
Mostly I know when M2 is spontaneously letting me into a place in her head that is vulnerable. When that happens I make a conscious choice to relax and move slowly and carefully. What works best is a combination of 100% focused attention and empathy. And then end the conversation with: I'm glad you told me that.
It's not a 50-50 thing. M2 has bigger balls than I do so she's shared more of herself with me, than I have with her. I am not proud of that. It's just true.
As far as gently encouraging her transparency - there is a triangulation approach that I think works well.
The truth comes at you through your partners actions, their tone of voice and most definitely their facial expressions and body language.
When someone says one thing, and their actions, body language, and tone of voice say otherwise, it's sort of obvious that their words are untrue.
In those situations I do the best I can to make the other person feel safe aligning their words with the rest of their comm channels.
And I typically press them softly while reassuring them that 'whatever I'm reading the real truth to be' is:
- Fine with me and
- Fairly normal
Transparency is great for windows. People should have some degree of opacity. If I wanted to be 100% transparent with my partner I would marry myself.
Transparency is the anathema of trust. Trust is your parent expecting you do do the right thing. Transparency is you doing the right thing because your partner is watching.
I recently had an idea of just how silly this is. J2's phone broke and she demanded we fix it for the same money I could get her a very capable temporary phone for 3-4 months then her next dream phone. I told her a few times to no avail - i.e. I was transparent. She was suspicious that I would keep my word and get her the dream phone in February. So she opted to fix a 3 year old phone instead of trusting me, thinking I would somehow trick her into keeping the temp phone.
I could have tricked her with repair costs that were exorbitant but was honest and found the lowest and best repair price. She did not return the courtesy.
My guess is that a partner needing 100% transparency all of the time would make most of us feel under-appreciated and untrusted and not want to be very transparent at all. At least it would if unwarranted. Being under a thumb is probably uncomfortable.
John, it sounds like there may be a reason why she does not trust you. One time transparency is unlikely to build trust. Consistent transparency over a long period of time is a different story.
True but regardless of outcome if the default mode is shields up... It's not going to work.
Besides, transparency assumes your partner is interested enough in you to look deeper. I could be maintaining a harem with the 72 virgins (not sure of exact number) in the attic and she wouldn't care. Not because of trust or transparency but because of indifference.
MEM, I don't even know if starting from scratch what to tell a new partner about transparency. I have ideas. But I can tell you that it seems to flow naturally....
With me ex W of 20 years, transparency was natural. Of course we married long before email and cell phones but even after neither would think twice to leave it around for the other to see. I never once has any inkling desire to log on to her computer or phone. Not once.
I had a gf in China, she was relatively conservative. same thing. Never once questioned or had need for more transparency as our conversations and values aligned. And same thing, we both easily could use each others phones. She'd have me use her computer to order something, etc. We'd have been married but she was married to work (as in get home 8:30 or 9:00 every night). And she wanted kids and I did not. So we split.
Now my ex Fiance. Oh boy. At first I did not even notice it, but over time I noticed she always had her phone protected. Her computer was protected. She would ask me all kinds of questions and I think some of it was she was so ready for shoe to drop on the relationship based on her past issues with boyfriends. She was guarded. That ended up being a red flag. And after a while as I probed further, it became obvious that issues were there I did not see readily at first. She would text other guys or they would text her things. Was she cheating? No. Did she have terrible boundaries? Yup. So it became a vicious cycle.
So if there is lack of transparency at all, my experience has been that it sets you up for failure.
Transparency is vital.
Financial history and debt? Absolute total open window.
Past sexual history? If I ask I want answer. Don't want gory detail but if dated married person or had affair that needs to be disclosed.
Criminal past? Must reveal.
Drug use? I wanna know.
However, as you noted, you can give transparency but does not mean you'll get it in return....
Things I do to discourage transparency:
1) Have boundaries -- marduk's story, for example, is the sort of thing that screams dealbreaker to me. So of course no one will want to tell me that they are lying to me about how much they love me, when really fantasizing about the barista.
2) be totally transparent myself when I am hurt or angry. Few people want to deal with someone who is hurt or angry, and so will just not say stuff to prevent that. Or lie, to smooth everything over
3) Keep quiet. I'm pretty transparent in the sense that I do not hide my feelings, do not put a pretty gloss on things to sell them better. But I am also not very transparent because a lot of the time I don't bother saying anything at all.
Things I do to encourage transparency
1) accept people for who they are, and not work to change them
2) ?????
I would like to encourage more transparency, as my biggest source of angst is a worry about being lied to. But I don't really know how, and am pretty sure that I'm more discouraging than encouraging.
I see none of those three as discouraging transparency in general.
1? I think that reaches the natural limit of healthy transparency.
2? A strong partner will deal with that effectively. Not only that, but I would wager that the more effectively they deal with it, the more comforted it would make you feel, and the less it would actually happen.
3? Maybe it discourages transparency. But I would argue that it likely leads to more scenarios from number 2 due to allowing a problem to simmer and become worse.
All told, it sounds like you have a healthy grasp on it.
Well, thanks far!! But truly I need to know if my SO is fantasizing about the barista when having sex with me. And if he won't admit to that for fear of my wrath (hurt!), then I don't or won't ever have what *I* need in this respect. And I see no way around it.
Transparency in a relationship is sort of a perception thing and is subjective in how you see and how your partner sees it. Does someone want their partner to tell them all their deep down thoughts and feelings.....maybe, maybe not. Is it a perceived deception to the relationship to not be totally transparent?
I perceive transparency as answering questions or explaining why someone did something without having to jump through hoops to get a "real" answer. I am lucky I guess because there aren't very many secrets in my relationship so I guess we have transparency. All the passwords are shared, we know the tricks to get into each other's phones, I do all the tech so I can muck around on his computer all I want and this is required to keep it running.
We both do things that we don't share, and we don't go looking for those things to shame or belittle each other. There are parts of each that we keep for ourselves. These are things that do not hurt our relationship.
I am having a hard time thinking that to be transparent in a relationship you need to share every little thought or feeling with the other. There are certain things that are private, just for yourself, that one doesn't or shouldn't have to lay bear in a relationship. Those feelings or thoughts that come unbidden that are better left unshared.......there has to be something in this life that is just your own, so how does that play into being transparent?
MEM, how were you able to get through that year when you were feeling hurt? Was it your commitment to your marriage, your love for your wife, that kept you there?
The long list of stuff M2 loved about me when we married - was still true.
I never felt threatened by him - because I didn't consider him my equal as a life partner for M2. He had about 25% of what M2 wanted. And I have about 85% of what she wants in a partner.
The fact she found him hotter, was far, far less important than the fact that M2 has been attracted to me from the start.
It's possible at one point I may have laughed and said:
He's hot, but that doesn't change the fact you wouldn't last 90 days together in the same house. He doesn't understand you at all.
So - I have an unorthodox view of this type thing.
If you have a great wife who makes a huge mistake - does that mean:
All the thousands and thousands of good things she's done - are invalidated? Does it mean that all the times she has casually walked away from temptation - don't count? Does it mean that suddenly she's a bad wife and bad person.
Or might it simply mean that she's a good person, who did one very bad thing after an extended period of extreme temptation?
--------------
Now to answer directly.
After a brief period of being intensely upset, I would have started working with M2 to reconcile. And given how big her conscience is, she would have been wracked with guilt. I likely would have felt a lot sorrier for her then me.
Besides - you know how sometimes folks do a lot of unfortunate stuff that contributes to a 'weak' marriage? I didn't. So if M2 had gone physical - that would have been entirely on her.
But - no - I wouldn't have left her.
That said - if she'd truly blown the master circuit - and wanted to continue an affair - I would have shrugged and said ok - I guess that means we have an open marriage.
There's not even close to any type of symmetry in that situation. M2 considers me hers. ALL hers. So the idea of me with someone else makes her agitated in a manner that isn't easily described.
So could I forgive her a single affair? I'm confident I could. Could she forgive me? I'm not so sure. Probably not.
I forgave her way way too fast. So she's not nearly as sorry as she should be.
She's chosen to adopt a very 'literal' view of it which is this: If it wasn't physical - it wasn't that big a deal.
I dislike making M2 feel bad - so I didn't. I'm not worried about it though since if anything like that started to evolve again, I would handle it differently.
QUOTE=ConanHub;14007313]Has she explored how she would feel if all her bvllshyt had ended your marriage?
I'm obviously wired different than you because Mrs. Conan would have found herself dumped on the idiots doorstep if I found myself in your position.
I often wonder if it occurs to a cheater, especially a remorseful one, that their spouse might not have any trouble finding someone hotter or better than them in some way. Not to mention loyal.
Before you brandish a weapon, make sure you are ready to have it used on you. Posted via Mobile Device[/QUOTE]
I forgave her way way too fast. So she's not nearly as sorry as she should be.
She's chosen to adopt a very 'literal' view of it which is this: If it wasn't physical - it wasn't that big a deal.
I dislike making M2 feel bad - so I didn't. I'm not worried about it though since if anything like that started to evolve again, I would handle it differently
I've wanted to write about this topic (transparency) ever since a long ago post on the subject infuriated me because it was true, and I didn't want it to be.
I'm going to paraphrase here but - what this person basically said was: Genuine transparency, REAL transparency can only be given. It cannot be demanded. It cannot be taken from someone else. It's not about control, it's about trust.
[snip]
The rest of this thread is about TRUE transparency. True transparency is about WHY. It's about feelings and beliefs. It's about stuff you can't get from a GPS log. Stuff you can ONLY get from a partner who actively trusts you. It's a voluntary act by a partner who overcomes their fear of being more fully known.
With that as context, this is my question. What kinds of things does your partner do that encourage or discourage your transparency with them. And what do you believe you do, to encourage or discourage their transparency with you?
It's not a 50-50 thing. M2 has bigger balls than I do so she's shared more of herself with me, than I have with her. I am not proud of that. It's just true.
It's interesting that your wife is more transparent with you than you are with her. Is it a matter of trust for you that you share less? Do you want your wife to know you more fully, or are you happy with how much of you she knows?
For me, the more a person shares of themselves with me, the more likely I am to share with them.
we are In a bring your own device plan with AT&T but history has taught me to always have a capable backup phone. As of now we don't since all our older phones end up sent to her country
I mean I could see her point for status but status be darned it makes no sense. My DD23's iPhone 5 croaked and I sent her a new Moto X 2015, same phone I'm getting next month. J2 refused the X as well.
Turns out she also did not want the hassle of moving to a new phone...
FW,
Quite a ways back you asked me a very fair question on this topic. Why wouldn't I do something that I KNOW turns M2 on. I thought about that for quite some time and now perhaps I can answer it.
I do some stuff. I do things I'm fairly confident I can do well and that isn't super time consuming. It's also true I 'could' put more effort into this.
Here's the backstory. My father in law worked at a bank for 37 years. He had an 8 hour day and a 10 minute commute. He was also fantastically handy even for his generation. The ONLY times M2 ever saw a repairman during her childhood was when the TV broke, which was very rare. He added an entire bathroom to his retirement home without any help at all. It was an 'addition' not a renovation. He even did this enhancement that made the combo bath/shower a steam sauna as well.
So he had both the skills and the time to do anything needed on their home growing up. Washing machine broke. He took it apart, ordered the broken parts and put it back together - good as new.
Fast forward to the early years of our marriage. I'm working for a big 5 consulting company and two things are true. I'm way out earning my FIL (age and inflation adjusted) and I'm also working a LOT more hours than he was.
And M2 is making snide comments about how casual I am about 'hiring' people to do stuff on our house.
Finally I remember saying: How come you don't thank me for working hard enough you can be a SAHM and we can afford to hire folks to do stuff I'm not good at and/or don't like?
I'm really not that handy. That's the truth. Don't have a strong aptitude for it like my FIL. And definitely didn't have as much time, nor as tight a budget as he did. The fact of it doesn't bother me. It did / does kind of bother me that M2 let me know how 'disappointing' that was to her.
I would never tell M2 I'm disappointed she can't talk to me about quantum entanglement. Or why helicopter rotors have to change their pitch dynamically to fly level. I knew that about her before we married. I accept without reservation that she's got limitations just like anyone does.
Marduk, this is the approach I would like to think I would have as well.
Mem, I was pushing you to see at what point it becomes less platitudinal and more decisive. Not with threats. Not with control. At what point is your true red line?
Additionally, all of the discussions on this have not been threatening sounding, but I would bet a substantial sum they will be viewed as threatening by the WS nonetheless.
I can't think of a scarier thing than telling M2 if she did something - I might not be ABLE to love her anymore.
And that isn't a threat. Or the little word game when people say: it's isn't a threat it's a promise.
This isn't like that. It's a legitimate fear.
And that happens to folks every day. There's a betrayal and someone can't get over it. And then the spirit of the marriage dies. And it's not just dead (resurrect able) it's dead-dead (not resurrect able).
I would be more inclined to think indifference - immunity is acquired and I've yet to meet someone immune to humanity's antics...
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