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Boundaries in Marriage

6K views 71 replies 21 participants last post by  Marduk 
#1 ·
In my attempts to grow and make my marriage better, I have read many, many books over the past few months. One of the books that has helped me most is 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I found it so helpful that it really has changed my outlook on marriage and life in general.

I have asked my wife if she would be willing to read it, or at least go through it with me, and she tells me she is not interested because of the many references the authors make to Christianity and to the bible.

My question is, is there a book that covers a similar topic and in similar detail that doesn't have the Christian references?

I'd really love for my wife to learn about boundaries, and how we all must take responsibility for our actions, feelings and behavior, but she will not even so much as consider this book.

Thanks for any help.
 
#5 ·
#8 ·
In scanning your other thread I recommend these...

The Emotionally Unavailable Man: A Blueprint for Healing: Patti Henry: 9781568250960: Amazon.com: Books

(there is a section in there that addresses a hurricaining wife.)

I also recommend You Don't Have To Take It Anymore
Thank you for the recommendations. I will pick these up and begin reading them today.

Frequency of fights is NOT the norm... You two will have to learn how to stay different or end it.
I agree with you, but she is adamant that this is normal. I do agree that it is normal to have disagreements with your spouse (or anyone that you live in close contact with for any extended amount of time), but I have never been in such a high-conflict relationship in my life and I think I am under-equipped to deal with it.

I will say, after reading these books, I am much better equipped now than I was four months ago, but I still have a long way to go.
 
#6 ·
I'm not a Christian. I mean, I am really, really, not a Christian. I still found both Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage to be very enlightening. Not converting. Enlightening.

Does your wife imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful and on-point can have no merit, just because it has an overtly religious slant? Or does she rather imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful can have no merit, period? Is she interested in healing your marriage? Is she willing to do anything to further that goal? Or is she merely willing to say anything, and actually do not all that much if it means she has to change?
 
#9 ·
Does your wife imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful and on-point can have no merit, just because it has an overtly religious slant? Or does she rather imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful can have no merit, period? Is she interested in healing your marriage? Is she willing to do anything to further that goal? Or is she merely willing to say anything, and actually do not all that much if it means she has to change?
Actually, she found ways to discredit and discount most of the books I've read in an effort to grow and help our marriage. And yes, often times it feels like she is simply trying to find fault in the things I find helpful. She especially disliked No More Mr. Nice Guy when I was telling her about it. She said it was training me to be a misogynistic a-hole. I asked her to read that one with me and she wouldn't participate in that with me either.

I read The 5 Love Languages, which she has been touting since she and I got together, and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.
 
#13 ·
I started looking at your other thread and stopped at this:

I was active in sports until she and I got married. She felt like it interfered too much with our family time, so I put them on the back burner. I am reconsidering this decision and have decided that once March rolls around again (when the season starts), I'll get back into it.
Instead of trying to get a wife who WILL NEVER CHANGE to read a book in a Nice Guy way to get her to care about you, I suggest that, instead, YOU read the following book. I think it will open your eyes. And it talks specifically about giving up your sports.

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-NUTs-Relationship-Manual/dp/0979054400
 
#19 ·
I started looking at your other thread and stopped at this:



Instead of trying to get a wife who WILL NEVER CHANGE to read a book in a Nice Guy way to get her to care about you, I suggest that, instead, YOU read the following book. I think it will open your eyes. And it talks specifically about giving up your sports.

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-NUTs-Relationship-Manual/dp/0979054400
That book is on my list as well.

Interestingly enough, I used to exercise at least an hour a day. I say 'used to', but I have only since stopped after the new year because my wife continually nagged me that it was taking up too much time from my family obligations and I need to choose my responsibilities to them.

I am going to try to get back started again, as I feel like complete crap now, but its a huge drag listening to her nag me all the time about spending an hour exercising while she is in the room with her 7 year old daughter trying to get her to sleep.
 
#16 ·
Your wife should try reading The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger. It's got a no nonsense, no BS, no excuses approach. Your wife can get it from audible if she can't be bothered to read it.
 
#18 ·
I believe I have this book on my bookshelf. My wife would NEVER read anything like that, especially by Laura Schlessinger. Again, it paints women as too subservient to their 'man', plus Dr. Laura's religious leanings.

She would be highly offended at me even suggesting she read it.
 
#27 ·
Acts of service are definitely situational. Different people like different things.

This wife wants no part of religion or a "traditional" female gender role. I think he when he suggested laundry, she heard "If you love me, you'll clean for me", even though I don't think that's what he meant.

She might be more willing to perform acts of service that don't fit into that female gender role. The specific things that she will do and he will respond to depends on them, of course.
 
#28 ·
I believe I responded to a previous post of yours. You are somewhat in the opposite situation as alot of women on this site and you are posed in a position more of that of the care taker/ or woman, from what I have read....it's like your roles are reversed. Does your wife remind you of your mother? Did you see your dad fearful of your mom?? I almost get the feeling that you fear your wife's wrath as you do not tend to hold your ground with her. None of this is going to change or get better unless you seek professional help as a couple and you need to lay it out as to what the problem is. Your wife has found someone to walk on, sorry dude but that is exactly what she is doing. You being nice and considerate is not going to make the situation change. You have to find proper boundaries, communicate those to her and stick to them. When she does not come thru on her end there is a repercussion for her not meeting her end. It doesn't mean you have control over her as that does not happen in a healthy relationship but she does have an obligation to meet you half way.
 
#29 ·
I believe I responded to a previous post of yours. You are somewhat in the opposite situation as alot of women on this site and you are posed in a position more of that of the care taker/ or woman, from what I have read....it's like your roles are reversed. Does your wife remind you of your mother? Did you see your dad fearful of your mom?? I almost get the feeling that you fear your wife's wrath as you do not tend to hold your ground with her. None of this is going to change or get better unless you seek professional help as a couple and you need to lay it out as to what the problem is. Your wife has found someone to walk on, sorry dude but that is exactly what she is doing. You being nice and considerate is not going to make the situation change. You have to find proper boundaries, communicate those to her and stick to them. When she does not come thru on her end there is a repercussion for her not meeting her end. It doesn't mean you have control over her as that does not happen in a healthy relationship but she does have an obligation to meet you half way.
If you have read No More Mr. Nice Guy my background fits almost perfectly with the background he describes of typical Nice Guys.

My mother left me with my junkie father when I was two years old, so I don't really remember her. My father, as mentioned, was an abusive drug addict at the time, so I didn't live with him very long. I spent most of my childhood hopping from family to family, depending on who would take me in at the time.

I lived with my grandmother and grandfather the most, so I'll think of them as the 'father' and 'mother' in your questions:

My grandmother was a typical subservient wife having grown up in the 40's and 50's. My grandfather was very overbearing, demanding, loud, bullying, and generally struck fear into anyone that had to deal with him. My grandmother was not necessarily 'afraid' of him, but she definitely knew not to cross him.

My father was the same way, when I did live with him. Very controlling to the women who lived with us. They would fight often. My father wasn't really afraid of anyone.

I have scheduled an appointment with a marriage counselor for me and my wife. I know it might sound odd, but I am actually excited to speak with someone about my situation that will see the situation from an unbiased perspective, and that will not immediately discredit and discount my feelings.
 
#31 ·
I don't know of any, but there probably are some out there.

I often recommend Boundaries by Henry Cloud; because it has excellent advice. I'm not Christian--but was raised in it--and I did find the constant religious talk a little grating, but I just took it for what it was. The advice was solid, regardless of the religious POV.


ETA:
I'm glad to see some other books out there, because I'd like to add more to my own list.
 
#32 ·
I don't know of any, but there probably are some out there.

I often recommend Boundaries by Henry Cloud; because it has excellent advice. I'm not Christian--but was raised in it--and I did find the constant religious talk a little grating, but I just took it for what it was. The advice was solid, regardless of the religious POV.

I hope someone else has a similar book to recommend, because I'd love to add one to my own list.
Look through the books in the link in my signature line Kiv... many there that float around that subject.
 
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#35 ·
The Christian references are there for a reason, to give the concept of boundaries or even marriage in general a basis for existing. You would otherwise have a book of just thoughts from another person and I think that your wife would even more strongly reject it as just another person's opinion.

My wife also has a "why the hell do I have to do that" attitude toward marriage and suspects that any book I show her about the subject is baised toward my "expectations". She is definitely no Christian, however, the references to the Bible show her the ideas in the book don't come from some other "controlling *******" as she accuses me of being.
 
#38 ·
To a non-Christian, or Atheist, Biblical references are the same "thoughts from another person" and perceived to be just as biased and controlling as you say she sees those other authors. At least a book author is a real person and not a series of tales handed down over centuries with multiple rewrites and translations.

It's the same as someone pulling out the Quran in a discussion with a Christian and using that as proof for a point. The Bible is only authoritative if you wish to believe that it is.

This isn't intended to start a religious debate, I'm just trying to explain how your reasoning sounds to a non-Christian.
 
#41 ·
RE (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.

If doing any reasonable acts of service made a spouse feel loved which brought the couple closer emotionally together, and helped the marriage, why would that be resisted? Would that be either ignorance of how it could affect the marriage or the simple choice not to do whatever it takes to help the marriage which would show that the marriage wasn't valued?
 
#42 ·
It's a good question. Some people just don't see it that way, though. I hate feet (no, like I REALLY hate touching feet), but if my wife said her feet hurt after a long day at work and asked me to rub them, first I'd ask her to wash them, then I'd rub them no problem.

To my wife though, doing housework is some kind of trigger for her and she all but refuses to do it. I always get a laugh (to myself) when I am downstairs doing the dishes at 9:30 at night and she knows I've been down there for 30 minutes or so cleaning the kitchen (after 2 adults and 4 children) and she knows I am finishing up, so she sends me a text:

wife: Hey is there anything I can help you with?

me: I'm almost done, but sure, if you'd like.

She then begrudgingly comes downstairs and proceeds to prop up against the counter while she plays her phone games and talks about whatever events from the day are on her mind. Meanwhile I continue cleaning the kitchen.
 
#53 ·
Last night, she and I went out on our bi-weekly date and apparently I was being a little more outgoing and gregarious than usual. While we were talking, she sat back in her chair and said, "Where is this alpha-male $h-t coming from?!"

I take that as a sign I'm doing something right.
 
#54 ·
I just read through most of this thread and it seems like you have tried so hard not to be like the controlling men in your family that you've gone to the other extreme. Now you are allowing her to knock you around.

I wouldn't try to get her to read books at all. What's the point? She's just going to belittle every little point or opinion she doesn't agree with. She also will know exactly what you're trying to do if you try to follow some advice and she'll probably belittle you for that too.

You need to learn to stand up for yourself. Standing up for yourself doesn't mean controlling her, which seems to be her fear. It just means not tolerating mistreatment from her. Walking away, saying you won't allow yourself to be talked to that way, pointing out how insulted you are when she calls you overly sensitive or calls you names. No one should tolerate that.

I say keep reading your books and following what resonates with you. If she loves and respects you she'll have no choice but to adapt.
 
#59 ·
Totally get it, but I see a bit of progress. Keep studying and practicing the boundaries, good listening, be patient.

Bad night, shake it off, tomorrow is a new day with a new try. Tell her you are sorry yall got sideways and you are committed to better relationship skills. Deal with her side later.

Don't stew on this one too long.

Just get back to work on the new skills in the morning.

Therapy is just a few days away.
 
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#61 ·
Remember, you are both in pain, you both have valid points, but be encouraged that you are learning the skills that break these destructive cycles. Boundaries are pattern interupts. This is just the beginning of big changes. Hang tight.
 
#65 ·
It has been my experience that most people do not want to be told that they need to read something to learn how to think and act. Somehow my wife and I managed to have a very happy, great in fact, marriage for over 40 years by just talking to each other. Know one else's idea of what a marriage should be and how we should think. I think what you did will elicit the same kind of reaction when someone attends a self help seminar and then bugs others about how great it is and how it opened your eyes and try to get them to attend. You may see it as such but what you are doing is telling your wife that she needs to change her way of thinking which implies that you do not care for the way she is. Just my opinion being on both sides of that coin a few times. Now I just let people be who they are and if I want a change, I change myself. I never found a lasting answer from a book. Marriages are living organisms that grow and change over time. I know that ours has changed several times over the decades and what worked for us 30 years ago, does not work now. If you have something to say to your wife, just say it and not give her a book implying that she needs to learn to be how you want her to be. YMMV
 
#66 ·
Just a quick follow up. We had our first MC session today and I thought it went well, although she did not. She sent me a text afterward saying she didn't think she could do it and that she didn't think she could change. I asked her why she thought that and she responded that she's been the way she is a long time and has never seen the type of behavior we were discussing modeled to her. I told her that I know it is a big change in behavior for both of us, but that I know that we can do it because we both want to be better for and to each other. I told her that I would be there to help her the entire process, but then she reiterated that she didn't think she could do it, then apologized, and said she was sorry, but she was just being honest.

I am not getting too worried yet as I know it is our first day and I think as we continue to attend MC, she will see the positive changes in both of us and realize she really can do it. That is my hope, anyway.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this; you have been a very integral part of my growth over the last few months and I appreciate it sincerely.
 
#67 ·
Just a quick follow up. We had our first MC session today and I thought it went well, although she did not. She sent me a text afterward saying she didn't think she could do it and that she didn't think she could change. I asked her why she thought that and she responded that she's been the way she is a long time and has never seen the type of behavior we were discussing modeled to her. I told her that I know it is a big change in behavior for both of us, but that I know that we can do it because we both want to be better for and to each other. I told her that I would be there to help her the entire process, but then she reiterated that she didn't think she could do it, then apologized, and said she was sorry, but she was just being honest.

I am not getting too worried yet as I know it is our first day and I think as we continue to attend MC, she will see the positive changes in both of us and realize she really can do it. That is my hope, anyway.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this; you have been a very integral part of my growth over the last few months and I appreciate it sincerely.
Don't say that you'll help her; tell her she has to do it. Remember, she wants to be told. Having it on her scares her.
 
#69 ·
I suspect your wife hides behind her bravado and chooses to see herself as superior to you in the past.
She does not know how to handle the changing you, the 'new' you because you may wake up one morning and realise she is not as great as she thinks she is.
In other words she is scared. She too has alot of stuff to weed out and deal with. Nevertheless you keep going to MC regardless of whether she goes or not. Your responsibility is to yourself only, to become a better man. If she does not want to become a better woman, then that is on her. But she will eventually realise as you change that it may not be so easy for her to move on with you/or without you. Let her come to her own conclusions on this.
 
#70 ·
Agree and as she sees you more balanced, sees its not scary, she may want it for herself. There is peace and fun that comes with the changes, so be patient with her for a reasonable timeframe. But, at the end of the day, she is severe enough, that the clock is short on this chaos. She will need to get it together soon. No one can live in this degree of intense chaos for long. Focus on your paper, it may pay off with this relationship, but if it doesn't, you'll be prepared for the next.
 
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