General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.
Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.
So what happens when one of those self-destruct buttons actually gets pushed?
The whole idea of a “deal breaker” seems to me to be a misnomer. Marriage is not a “deal”. It is not like the two of you sat down once upon a time and negotiated an elaborate agreement that has been signed, notarized and filed with a lawyer. It is a commitment of faith. Both parties entered into the relationship with certain expectations. Some of these were clearly stated and some were not. It is often the “hidden” clauses that come back to bite us. We assumed certain things that may not have been realistic. We did not promise to love, honor, and cherish, until such time as you piss me off sufficiently that I don’t want to be around you anymore. Nor did we state that if you don’t meet my needs when, where, and how I wish that I reserve the right to ditch you and find someone else who will. Those kinds of expectations are kept in the back of our minds until such time as they were violated and then we bring them out and state that this is grounds for divorce.
The problem, as I see it, is an attitude of entitlement. We believe that certain things are owed to us in marriage and that a person should “leave and/or divorce” if those conditions are not met. People feel that they are entitled to have their needs met. They feel that it is their spouse’s responsibility to provide all that they need form a relationship and not ask too much in return. They believe that it is their spouse’s responsibility to make them happy.
I am sorry to say it, but we are not entitled to anything in marriage. Marriage is a partnership. You would not expect a business partner to do whatever you wanted simply because you have expectations that you think should be met. You recognize that if you do not hold up your end of a business deal you will soon be out of business. It is the same in marriage. If you want a marriage to work then you have to be clear on what it is that you want from it AND what you are prepared to contribute. If your taking is going to exceed your giving then there will be problems.
All that is good in life comes at a price. The game of life is about exchanging energy in one form for energy in another form. Like everything else in our lives, we have to invest ourselves in our marriage if we expect it to grow and thrive. We also have to be willing to take a chance and possibly make mistakes. Marriage is a role that you have to grow into.
Unfortunately, there is no training course that churns out expert spouses. You have to be willing to train on the job.
This is true of every aspect of married life. You learn how to live together. You learn how to make love together... Even with something like raising our kids we have to grow into it. We make mistakes; we learn from them and move forward, we are tested time and time again. Sometimes we fail, but we do not hold it against ourselves or our children. There are no perfect parents, and there are no perfect children. Eventually we work through the mistakes, as painful as they may be. We persevere through the struggles and we are rewarded for our efforts through the simple joy of growth. We look back on all of the obstacles that our family has overcome and marvel at how we all grew through those times. It is not that we lucked out and found the perfect spouse, and then had the perfect kids, and thus a perfect life. We worked hard for every good thing that came to us, and that is what makes it special.
However, many people do not see it that way. When they see a happy couple enjoying time together they honestly think that those people got lucky. They believe that some relationships “just work” and perhaps they can find one of those magic relationships if they go looking. They feel they are entitled to certain things and marital bliss is simply a matter of finding someone who is willing to give them all of those things.
So many, with this attitude of entitlement react to marital problems by blaming their spouse. They feel that all of their marital problems would be solved if only their spouse would get with the program and start giving what they need to receive. This is what “falling out of love” is. They had this balloon of expectation and reality failed to live up to it, so the balloon has been deflated. They stop investing themselves in the marriage. They withdraw, withhold affection and refuse physical touch or sexual closeness. They pout, get angry, manipulate, and try to force their partner into submitting to their desires. They do all kinds of things that simply further tear their marriage apart.
At a time in your marriage when you are reacting to hardships in these ways, you are doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you really loved and cared for your spouse, and you really wanted to save your marriage, you would do the exact opposite. Rather than pulling back, you would double your efforts to be kind, loving, affectionate, and sexual. Even if it feels counter-intuitive to do so, you keep trying. When you use positive tactics, in the end, the reward is worth the effort.
Marriage requires effort to be successful. The more that you put into a marriage, the better the chance of it succeeding. If both partners are only concerned with their own needs (i.e. what they will get out of this deal) then there is no one pumping positive energy into it, and the relationship will starve. You cannot draw water from an empty well.
Let go of the idea that love is a magical thing that happens when you find the right person. Believing in that delusion will have you always casting sideways glances to see if there is a better soul mate out there somewhere. You will not be fully invested in your current marriage if you think the grass may greener on the other side of the fence.
To quote Joyce Meyer “You think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? You will have to mow that lawn too.”
When you see a happy couple passing on the street, do not allow yourself to believe that they got lucky. If they are happy together it is because they are both making an effort to give what they know the other needs.
So I say again, we are not entitled to a happy marriage. We earn it through loving, honoring, and cherishing ourselves and our spouse through good times and bad.
One of the best posts I've seen in a while!!! It would seem that most divorces come as a result of this sense of entitlement. That's how most people seem to be hardwired these days.
As a believer of every word of the bible and a firm believer in Christ, I get bothered when people tell I "deserve" better when I talk about my willingness to reconcile with my wayward wife who is still wayward. My reply is usually that the only thing I "deserve" is death due to my sinfulness but Christ died for that. Other than that, I just have to accept things as they come. Posted via Mobile Device
But I generally agree with you though... there really were no dealbreakers for me, when I chose to marry I chose to take on whatever problems life threw at me and her as a married couple. Didn't even comprehend that it could have been corrupted from within.
I firmly and truly believe any marriage can be reconciled/recovered/worked on and restored/rebuilt, all that jazz. Unless of course there is abuse or something of that nature.
The thing is: Most divorces are NOT mutual. That is a sad truth.
The thing is: Most divorces are NOT mutual. That is a sad truth.
yeah, in my marriage if there was ever to be a divorce it was always going to be her to do so. Actually now I think of it, I'm the one that is technically filing, however the marriage is already over and it will most assuredly be uncontested, its just the paperwork that I'm left dealing with.
I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.
That depends, there are so many people who marry way too fast, they sure didn't discuss their life goals, and it was NEVER meant to be. My Dad & Mom is such a case, the grass was plenty greener for him with my step Mom, match made in heaven itself -even if I didn't like the woman as a teen. My Mom married him for the wrong reasons too. It was more mutual - a rarity I suppose.
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Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.
If the problems are for a time - a time frame we can handle personally (I think for some that may be longer than others), I agree with you, we shouldn't jump ship... we should FIGHT and give it everything in us, so we know we did our damnest to loving our spouse-doing our part, go to counseling, do the "Love Dare", communicate till it hurts, be vulnerable, put ourselves out there, whatever it takes .....
.......BUT if we are chronically beaten down- spanning over years , left to pick up the fallen peices alone, we find we have no compatability, we don't even enjoy each other, why in the world should that union stay together? I am not someone , like MarkSaySay that believes I deserve Death by my Creator, nor am I am masochist- I enjoy living in this world and partaking of True happiness in all of its beauty. I am not one willing to shut the doors on my own happiness. BUt I don't feel that makes me "entitled" either. I am willing to work hard for a common goal, but IF my spouse is not on board, it will lead to me jumping -eventually , more fish in that sea- absolutely. And why should I begrudge myself for that?
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The problem, as I see it, is an attitude of entitlement. We believe that certain things are owed to us in marriage and that a person should “leave and/or divorce” if those conditions are not met. People feel that they are entitled to have their needs met. They feel that it is their spouse’s responsibility to provide all that they need form a relationship and not ask too much in return. They believe that it is their spouse’s responsibility to make them happy.
Well this "attitude" is surely all wrong-even dangerous. If 2 hearts come at each other with this type of mindset, happiness will not be found, but merely expectation, and let down- a merry go round of such.
When genuine love is there, you just won't THINK like this. Ever. You will be internallly compelled to forgive the arguments, to find common ground, to press forward, love the other -cause it brings you closer, it is Supposed to work like this. I don't feel I am entitled to anything, I wouldn't use that word --but I would use the word ...... TRUST (which is not faith -at least not to me, I find faith to be Blind many times and not wise at all) --but TRUST...OH Yes, we NEED that ! And it should be there and held like a delicate flower. And if more was very very careful, trust gets built over time, if couples do not allow for this time in getting to know their deeper selves before they marry ..... it could come back to haunt them -due to massive incompatabilities. Trust is also earned.
...So when one spouse starts trampling on that TRUST, holding secrets, treating the other like dirt, it could be less than abuse and infidelity in my opinion. Sure we have fights and disagreements, we are human! But when the trust to love , honor and cherish has been slaughted one too many times, how can you say the grass in not greener somewhere else -if you are the Chronic Giver, and left empty.
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Unfortunately, there is no training course that churns out expert spouses. You have to be willing to train on the job.
This is true of every aspect of married life. You learn how to live together. You learn how to make love together... Even with something like raising our kids we have to grow into it. We make mistakes; we learn from them and move forward, we are tested time and time again. Sometimes we fail, but we do not hold it against ourselves or our children. There are no perfect parents, and there are no perfect children. Eventually we work through the mistakes, as painful as they may be. We persevere through the struggles and we are rewarded for our efforts through the simple joy of growth. We look back on all of the obstacles that our family has overcome and marvel at how we all grew through those times. It is not that we lucked out and found the perfect spouse, and then had the perfect kids, and thus a perfect life. We worked hard for every good thing that came to us, and that is what makes it special.
and when you can look back and have a hearty laugh about it all, joking about how rediculous we were in the early years, all the more special it is. I think all humor would be lost if we were all perfect anyway. Boring infact.
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When you use positive tactics, in the end, the reward is worth the effort.
Marriage requires effort to be successful. The more that you put into a marriage, the better the chance of it succeeding. If both partners are only concerned with their own needs (i.e. what they will get out of this deal) then there is no one pumping positive energy into it, and the relationship will starve. You cannot draw water from an empty well.
Yeah, but you have to be true to yourself also. If your needs are very differnt from his needs, one ends up just pacifying the other, going through the motions to keep peace, this is not answer either. It has to be in the heart. Vows are not enough.
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Let go of the idea that love is a magical thing that happens when you find the right person. Believing in that delusion will have you always casting sideways glances to see if there is a better soul mate out there somewhere. You will not be fully invested in your current marriage if you think the grass may greener on the other side of the fence.
I used to buy into the whole "soul mate" thing (always felt me & my husband were ) ....until I caught a Christian marraige Program on TV discussing this very topic.... how this belief can really trip you up....if things are going bad, and you start thinking you missed your soul mate in life. Although I don't agree with the Soul mate philosophy, I do believe in "compatability" being the greatest thing going for marraiges...... (having similar love languages, hopes, goals, dreams, similar ideas on child rearing, sex, genuinelly enjoying each other's company, having laughter in your marraige, ). If you have a few of these sinking like the Titanic, and our selfish natures rear their ugly head (which they will)....it is going to be an uphill battle, where it might not have been ...if we was with someone who truly appreciated our brand of humor, our love languages, shared the same goals & dreams.
I am just not someone who would judge another for leaving if things were really too tough on them, if staying would reduce them to taking depression drugs or something. Some are stronger than others and can stick it out through the hell for years on end, but what does it due to thier outlook in life -if they will be left bitter?
It will always take 2. If one is not on board, when we realize the hope is lost, Faith can be very misleading, many die waiting for a healing. How sad that is. I think life should be enjoyed , with someone who shares your brand of enjoyment.
Not that I disagree with your words, I really don't...at least you said this...
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. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter.
Amen to that.
I just am one who would leave over more than infidelity or abuse and I don't happen to think I am a bad person for admitting as such. Certain things would be real deal breakers for me. Thankfully I married well and it is not a concern, but I don't judge others who leave for lessor reasons than those 2, I've seen too much pain in marriages and people finding someone way more compatiable for themselves on the 2nd round, they are very happy to mow thier new lawns, while those old lawns were a curse to them.
I just think we need to be more careful BEFORE we marry, and know each other inside and out.
Exellent counter pionts. I appriciate your taking the time to reply in depth.
There are two sides too every coin. You pointed that out very nicely.
"I am just not someone who would judge another for leaving if things were really too tough on them."
I don't believe for a second that you were insinuating that I was judging anyone, but just for the record, let me clarify my position.
I judge no one, we all have our own thresholds and boundries. I don't agree with divorcing until all has been tried first, but once that point has been reached, we have to do whats best for ourselves and each others happiness. Even if that means its a life with someone else.
Again, I sincerely appriciate your insightful wisdom and thanks for your reply.
One of the best posts I've seen in a while!!! It would seem that most divorces come as a result of this sense of entitlement. That's how most people seem to be hardwired these days.
As a believer of every word of the bible and a firm believer in Christ, I get bothered when people tell I "deserve" better when I talk about my willingness to reconcile with my wayward wife who is still wayward. My reply is usually that the only thing I "deserve" is death due to my sinfulness but Christ died for that. Other than that, I just have to accept things as they come. Posted via Mobile Device
Hmmm...you don't think spouses deserve fidelity to each other?
Not crapping on your choice. Just interested in your perspective.
RJD,
Under what conditions would you want one of your children to divorce:
- Physical abuse
- Drug or alcohol addiction
- Financial infidelity (like gambling the family into bankruptcy)
- Emotional infidelity
- Physical infidelity
- Overt emotional abuse
- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional well being)
- White collar crime
- Violent crime
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Originally Posted by RDJ
I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.
Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.
So what happens when one of those self-destruct buttons actually gets pushed?
The whole idea of a “deal breaker” seems to me to be a misnomer. Marriage is not a “deal”. It is not like the two of you sat down once upon a time and negotiated an elaborate agreement that has been signed, notarized and filed with a lawyer. It is a commitment of faith. Both parties entered into the relationship with certain expectations. Some of these were clearly stated and some were not. It is often the “hidden” clauses that come back to bite us. We assumed certain things that may not have been realistic. We did not promise to love, honor, and cherish, until such time as you piss me off sufficiently that I don’t want to be around you anymore. Nor did we state that if you don’t meet my needs when, where, and how I wish that I reserve the right to ditch you and find someone else who will. Those kinds of expectations are kept in the back of our minds until such time as they were violated and then we bring them out and state that this is grounds for divorce.
The problem, as I see it, is an attitude of entitlement. We believe that certain things are owed to us in marriage and that a person should “leave and/or divorce” if those conditions are not met. People feel that they are entitled to have their needs met. They feel that it is their spouse’s responsibility to provide all that they need form a relationship and not ask too much in return. They believe that it is their spouse’s responsibility to make them happy.
I am sorry to say it, but we are not entitled to anything in marriage. Marriage is a partnership. You would not expect a business partner to do whatever you wanted simply because you have expectations that you think should be met. You recognize that if you do not hold up your end of a business deal you will soon be out of business. It is the same in marriage. If you want a marriage to work then you have to be clear on what it is that you want from it AND what you are prepared to contribute. If your taking is going to exceed your giving then there will be problems.
All that is good in life comes at a price. The game of life is about exchanging energy in one form for energy in another form. Like everything else in our lives, we have to invest ourselves in our marriage if we expect it to grow and thrive. We also have to be willing to take a chance and possibly make mistakes. Marriage is a role that you have to grow into.
Unfortunately, there is no training course that churns out expert spouses. You have to be willing to train on the job.
This is true of every aspect of married life. You learn how to live together. You learn how to make love together... Even with something like raising our kids we have to grow into it. We make mistakes; we learn from them and move forward, we are tested time and time again. Sometimes we fail, but we do not hold it against ourselves or our children. There are no perfect parents, and there are no perfect children. Eventually we work through the mistakes, as painful as they may be. We persevere through the struggles and we are rewarded for our efforts through the simple joy of growth. We look back on all of the obstacles that our family has overcome and marvel at how we all grew through those times. It is not that we lucked out and found the perfect spouse, and then had the perfect kids, and thus a perfect life. We worked hard for every good thing that came to us, and that is what makes it special.
However, many people do not see it that way. When they see a happy couple enjoying time together they honestly think that those people got lucky. They believe that some relationships “just work” and perhaps they can find one of those magic relationships if they go looking. They feel they are entitled to certain things and marital bliss is simply a matter of finding someone who is willing to give them all of those things.
So many, with this attitude of entitlement react to marital problems by blaming their spouse. They feel that all of their marital problems would be solved if only their spouse would get with the program and start giving what they need to receive. This is what “falling out of love” is. They had this balloon of expectation and reality failed to live up to it, so the balloon has been deflated. They stop investing themselves in the marriage. They withdraw, withhold affection and refuse physical touch or sexual closeness. They pout, get angry, manipulate, and try to force their partner into submitting to their desires. They do all kinds of things that simply further tear their marriage apart.
At a time in your marriage when you are reacting to hardships in these ways, you are doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you really loved and cared for your spouse, and you really wanted to save your marriage, you would do the exact opposite. Rather than pulling back, you would double your efforts to be kind, loving, affectionate, and sexual. Even if it feels counter-intuitive to do so, you keep trying. When you use positive tactics, in the end, the reward is worth the effort.
Marriage requires effort to be successful. The more that you put into a marriage, the better the chance of it succeeding. If both partners are only concerned with their own needs (i.e. what they will get out of this deal) then there is no one pumping positive energy into it, and the relationship will starve. You cannot draw water from an empty well.
Let go of the idea that love is a magical thing that happens when you find the right person. Believing in that delusion will have you always casting sideways glances to see if there is a better soul mate out there somewhere. You will not be fully invested in your current marriage if you think the grass may greener on the other side of the fence.
To quote Joyce Meyer “You think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? You will have to mow that lawn too.”
When you see a happy couple passing on the street, do not allow yourself to believe that they got lucky. If they are happy together it is because they are both making an effort to give what they know the other needs.
So I say again, we are not entitled to a happy marriage. We earn it through loving, honoring, and cherishing ourselves and our spouse through good times and bad.
Deserve may be too strong a word. Expect to me is more accurate. To deserve something again is a word that makes one think that something they've done is worthy of another. I, again, am speaking from a biblical perspective because I know that I have not been and will probably never be the perfect husband.
When we made our vows, I expected fidelity and to be loved, honored, etc..but I'm not entitled or deserving of anything. Was I unfaithful? Not physically but I did watch porn. Does it justify my wife's infidelity? No! I'm just saying that based on what the bible teaches, no one DESERVES anything but eternal damnation because we all fall short of Gods standard if living. But his mercy means he gives us less than we deserve.
Did I get married thinking my wife would cheat and blame me for her actions or try to justify herself by trying to point out everything thing I've ever done wrong (real or perceived)? No! I expected a happy marriage with a few ups and downs. But I don't deserve anything.
Why? Because I sin, too. That is not going to keep me from continuing to love her, though. Unconditionally loving someone means choosing to do so even when they don't DESERVE IT. Posted via Mobile Device
1. I like the post for the most part but not the title. Id much rather see it as "unrealisic expectations" because ...
2. I think there are absolutely certain entitlements in marriage
In general, they are
A. For their spouse to do their best to understand their needs and expectations from marriage which include affection, loyalty, effort, dedication, etc
B. For their spouse to take action to meet those needs to the best of their ability and understanding
If you dont have those, fuggedabodit but ...
That is not to say a spouse is RESPONSIBLE for making their spose happy or to meet ALL of their needs. A spouse should be expected to add to happiness and to do their best to meet reasonable needs without all the holdout, punishment, score keeping, transactional, tit for tat nonsense that goes on with resentment.
Sure narcissitic, unrealistic expectation spouses suck (or maybe not/haha), but insisting you are entitled to nothing in marriage from your spouse is missing the mark IMO.
My favorite point of the post is the part about there being no training for being a good psouse and that its all on the job training.
3. I disagree everything is hard work. There is a lot in my marriage that is a piece of cake. My wife makes friends with nearly everyone she meets. I have a knack for business so we are comfortable. My daughter is a great kid. We all get along with each others inlaws. We laugh alot. There are many many others. None of them require what is described as work that soundslike being in a prison labor camp. If nothing came easy in marriage, the word would get out and no one would do it. Its not THAT bad. Jeepers.
RJD,
Under what conditions would you want one of your children to divorce:
- Physical abuse
- Drug or alcohol addiction
- Financial infidelity (like gambling the family into bankruptcy)
- Emotional infidelity
- Physical infidelity
- Overt emotional abuse
- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional well being)
- White collar crime
- Violent crime
Hello Mem11363,
I have to say that you have peaked my curiosity. I can’t wait to see where you are going with this.
I would be sad to see my children divorce under any circumstances. As I said above, my thoughts are that couples should try every possible attempt to salvage their marriage before giving up. There are times when it’s too much for some. That line is a personal choice. I would express the same to my children, I would express my thoughts (just as I have done here) but the ultimate decision would be theirs, I would accept it and not judge anyone. To judge implies that we are better than another. I am better than no one. I am simply me, good and bad.
As for your list, I will share my own experience with you. I have committed the following things in my marriage.
- Physical abuse: I don’t abuse my wife, but one time when we were young, I slapped her. (Has never happened again in over 30 years of marriage) She has made the same mistake, twice.
- Financial infidelity: Again, when we were younger, I had a serious gambling problem. Not to bankruptcy, but certainly throwing away money that the family could have used.
- Overt emotional abuse: I also had many years of the angry man behavior towards my wife. In my eyes, it was not “overt” but it was in her eyes.
- Drug or alcohol addiction: Again, when I was younger, I did every drug I could get my hands on.
- White collar crime: Been there too.
OK I was not a very good person when I was younger.
As for my wife,
- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional wellbeing): After years of my behavior, she ended up feeling this way about me. (Can’t blame her, can I?)
- Drug or alcohol addiction: She has been, and still is, an alcoholic.
- Emotional infidelity: The crash of my marriage came with an EA from her. Along with the deceit, lies, and everything else that comes with it.
- Physical infidelity: Unsure, Don’t know if the EA went physical or not? (Although it would not matter)
- Violent crime: Alright! At least there is one we have not committed.
What’s the point of all of this? Any of these could have been “deal breakers”. In all honesty, I considered several too be, until they actually happened. Then I had to evaluate their true importance to me. My wife or I had plenty of “reasons” to divorce. But we did not; we worked through even the most devastating of circumstances, we chose to forgive, forget, and grow from our experiences. And in the end, we have a stronger, better relationship for it. Are things perfect? NO! There is no such thing as perfect people. But we are always moving forward, we have just as many good things in our life together, things that we would have missed had we just given up and divorced. For example: As I said, we are happier now than at any point in our marriage. We have two awesome children and three even more awesome grandchildren that bring pleasure and joy to our lives. We would not have experienced this TOGATHER if we were divorced at several stages of our life.
Is this for every one? I doubt it, but if you can make it work, it just might be worth the trip. It was for us.
With all that being said, with all due respect, I am anxious to hear what you have to say?
A. For their spouse to do their best to understand their needs and expectations from marriage which include affection, loyalty, effort, dedication, etc
B. For their spouse to take action to meet those needs to the best of their ability and understanding
I have to disagree, these are not entitlements. They are hopes, expectations, or wants. We may want them, but I'm not convinced that we are entitled to them. Just my opinion though.
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I disagree everything is hard work. There is a lot in my marriage that is a piece of cake. My wife makes friends with nearly everyone she meets. I have a knack for business so we are comfortable. My daughter is a great kid. We all get along with each others inlaws. We laugh alot. There are many many others. None of them require what is described as work that soundslike being in a prison labor camp. If nothing came easy in marriage, the word would get out and no one would do it. Its not THAT bad. Jeepers.
I'll give you this one. I'm pretty new to writing, I could have done a better job here. Maybe "It can be hard work if we let it be" Would have been a better expression.
I'll try to chose my words "more better" (just kidding)
Wow,
Let me start from the top.
Hats off to you for incredible commitment. I mean that with total sincerity.
And very happy your children turned out well.
As for us:
- I pushed my W once - pushed her onto the bed. Not being a smart aleck here. I was over the top angry and pushed her. She didn't like it. I felt very bad and promised never to touch her in anger again. 20+ years later promise is intact.
- I drank to much our first 2-3 years of marriage. Didn't miss work. Didn't crash car / get DUI. Wasn't a mean drunk - actually a more low key/playful/happy drunk. Still - not the best.
- Drugs - lets just say I experimented my fair share
- Emotional abuse: I was explosively angry every once in a while.
- Crime - no and nope
- Financial stuff was all good
- Tension over sex - mismatched drives - worked through it
- Conflict over being slowly deprioritized - fixed that by mirroring the behavior
- She sort of fell for a guy who worked for her. Went to her priest. He told her the church needs strong marriages. For about a year she brought home all that desire for him and saturated me with it. I finally asked her if they ever kissed. She said no. I beleive her.
Love my W. She is the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDJ
Hello Mem11363,
I have to say that you have peaked my curiosity. I can’t wait to see where you are going with this.
I would be sad to see my children divorce under any circumstances. As I said above, my thoughts are that couples should try every possible attempt to salvage their marriage before giving up. There are times when it’s too much for some. That line is a personal choice. I would express the same to my children, I would express my thoughts (just as I have done here) but the ultimate decision would be theirs, I would accept it and not judge anyone. To judge implies that we are better than another. I am better than no one. I am simply me, good and bad.
As for your list, I will share my own experience with you. I have committed the following things in my marriage.
- Physical abuse: I don’t abuse my wife, but one time when we were young, I slapped her. (Has never happened again in over 30 years of marriage) She has made the same mistake, twice.
- Financial infidelity: Again, when we were younger, I had a serious gambling problem. Not to bankruptcy, but certainly throwing away money that the family could have used.
- Overt emotional abuse: I also had many years of the angry man behavior towards my wife. In my eyes, it was not “overt” but it was in her eyes.
- Drug or alcohol addiction: Again, when I was younger, I did every drug I could get my hands on.
- White collar crime: Been there too.
OK I was not a very good person when I was younger.
As for my wife,
- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional wellbeing): After years of my behavior, she ended up feeling this way about me. (Can’t blame her, can I?)
- Drug or alcohol addiction: She has been, and still is, an alcoholic.
- Emotional infidelity: The crash of my marriage came with an EA from her. Along with the deceit, lies, and everything else that comes with it.
- Physical infidelity: Unsure, Don’t know if the EA went physical or not? (Although it would not matter)
- Violent crime: Alright! At least there is one we have not committed.
What’s the point of all of this? Any of these could have been “deal breakers”. In all honesty, I considered several too be, until they actually happened. Then I had to evaluate their true importance to me. My wife or I had plenty of “reasons” to divorce. But we did not; we worked through even the most devastating of circumstances, we chose to forgive, forget, and grow from our experiences. And in the end, we have a stronger, better relationship for it. Are things perfect? NO! There is no such thing as perfect people. But we are always moving forward, we have just as many good things in our life together, things that we would have missed had we just given up and divorced. For example: As I said, we are happier now than at any point in our marriage. We have two awesome children and three even more awesome grandchildren that bring pleasure and joy to our lives. We would not have experienced this TOGATHER if we were divorced at several stages of our life.
Is this for every one? I doubt it, but if you can make it work, it just might be worth the trip. It was for us.
With all that being said, with all due respect, I am anxious to hear what you have to say?
I have to disagree, these are not entitlements. They are hopes, expectations, or wants. We may want them, but I'm not convinced that we are entitled to them. Just my opinion though.
I googled sample wedding vows and read several and remembered your parnership example.
I think promises are made to induce another to consider them something which can be expected to be relied upon, inducing another to make a decision based on promises made creates entitlement.
I am a contractor. When I promise (by verbal or written contract) to remodel your bathroom and you promise to pay me for it, you are entitled to a new bathroom and I am entitled to your payment.
I hope, expect and want that to work. If it doesnt we may find ourselves in front of our friendly local judge man that will determine oneof us did not get what we were entitled to.
Its a minor point I suppose but I have insomnia and a newbatch of chocolate chip cookies and enjoy bantering with you.
Entitlement 
Hmmm? 
(just kidding)
