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"How to Stay Married"

42K views 672 replies 57 participants last post by  Wolfman1968 
#1 ·
TIME magazine features this article on its cover for June 16, 2016. John Gottman is quoted about the importance of men in heterosexual relationships. Esther Perel is also quoted in the article.

I only read a bit of it at the dentist's, and am unable to link it. Seems good, though. Just FYI.
 
#2 ·
Something similar to this, which is from Gottman's site, is quoted in the article. It certainly seems true to me.

"Results from Dr. Gottman’s research prove a simple truth: men make or break heterosexual relationships. This does not mean that a woman doesn’t need to do her part, but the data proves that a man’s actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship succeeds or fails, which is ironic since most relationship books are written for women."
 
#4 ·
I disagree with the premise as well. Perhaps men's behavior more often will "make or break heterosexual relationships," but it's certainly not so one-sided!
 
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#6 ·
It's behind a paywall, but I have it on the Texture app. Just skimming it. It's all over the place (not saying that is bad). A few random things I pulled out.


  • "Aligning premarriage values about kids, money and sex is key, say one expert." Sounds good, but not very helpful if you are already married.
  • And "sex once a week was the optimum for maximizing marital happiness."
  • More sex, once a week vs once a month, made a bigger difference in happiness than more money $50-$75K vs $15-$25K.
 
#9 ·
I don't know. I don't think it's always the fault of both parties. Where is the faithful spouse at fault when the marriage breaks down because the other spouse is a serial cheater? The only "fault" I see is perhaps not recognizing the red flags and marrying them to begin with. And that's not always an easy thing to do. If you marry young enough you might not have a clue as to what a "red flag" even is.

It's definitely not always the man's fault though! My husband's first marriage broke up because his wife turned out to be a sex addict. She was having multiple affairs with both men and women. After they broke up he found out she'd even slept with a total stranger they met at the hotel during their honeymoon! They were only married for a few years and he thinks she probably slept with at least 2 dozen other people during that time. In the 12 years he's been married to me she's been married 4 more times since their divorce.
 
#14 ·
I've read the article. Nothing earth shattering in it.

It's a simple formula, really.

1. Choose well
2. Work hard
3. Expect and accept imperfection

At least that's my recipe.
 
#17 ·
Okay, I have the article in front of me. Here is the exact quote from Gottman:

"What men do in a relationship is, by a large margin, the crucial factor that separates a great relationship from a failed one. This doesn't mean that a woman doesn't need to do her part, but the data proves that a man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship succeeds or fails."
 
#18 ·
I'm not going to be one of those knee-jerk responders on this idea who calls it crap just because they don't like it. It might be true, and I can at least hypothesize few reasons why. For instance, just today an article was posted discussing why women in high tech perform worse than men in a blind interview when their gender is disguised. It turns out the discrepancy disappears when you factor out both men and women who quit after an initial poor performance - which women do with greater frequency than do men. So conditioned from birth or genetically infused, the above statement might have more truth to it than we men are comfortable accepting.

Does he provide detailed accounts and interpretations of this unambiguous data?
 
#22 ·
I don't personally have any of Gottman's books.. but the articles I have read -like his laying out "The Four Horsemen" -being a sure death to any relationship (below)...and his writings on Conflict .... I find them very insightful, and true.. I've never heard that he may have a slant towards women.. blaming the man more so.. that's news to me..

I agree with you @jld.. he is highly respected in his field.

* Criticism- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of another / faultfinding. "Criticism is “really a way of fueling the attack, so you state your complaint as an attack on the other person.” ... “It’s not constructive, it winds up leading to an escalation of the conflict" ......No Criticism Please!

* Contempt... When we communicate in this state, we are truly meaning - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling.:rolleyes: The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.....The Danger of Contempt

* Defensiveness- conveys the message, “The problem is not me. It’s you.” From this position you imply that, because your partner threw the first stone, they are responsible for the entire conflict. You avoid taking responsibility for your own behavior by pointing to something they did prior to their complaint about you. You do not acknowledge that which is true in what they are saying about your behavior.

Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships

* Stonewalling -
also known as "the Silent treatment". .. stonewalling is the absolute refusal to consider your partner’s perspective. If you listen at all, you do it dismissively or contemptuously.This is the passive-aggressive stance many people take during a fight. It's the "Nothing's wrong, I'm fine!" said even when there is clearly something wrong.

Other common songs of the stonewaller are:“Just leave me alone…”...“Do whatever you want"....“End of conversation"..."that's enough"....

Stonewalling: How to recognize and fix ......... How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Relationship - Stonewall
I've thought about this a number of times.. but it's hard to put into words..

Wouldn't our world of relationships be a whole lot better if the majority of men did put the welfare of women 1st... but also at the same time (and don't miss this please).... women have a similar mindset in wanting to put their MAN 1st...

Let's say Gottman IS speaking to men to look to themselves 1st.. to get their act together..that a great responsibility is laid in their hands, to shape, influence his union .... is this so awful bad coming from a man himself ?!@#.. Personally I feel that makes him a fine spokesperson for Men.. hopefully he is living that example..

But at the same time we need a spokesperson for women to look at ourselves too... the power we hold , our influences over our men....to be the BEST wife we can be..to also enhance our relationships..

It's just more unsettling when each gender is quick to point blame on the other (like MGTOW and radical feminist groups) .. I find that far more unsettling...and not good for any of us..
 
#23 ·
I don't personally have any of Gottman's books.. but the articles I have read -like his laying out "The Four Horsemen" -being a sure death to any relationship (below)...and his writings on Conflict .... I find them very insightful, and true.. I've never heard that he may have a slant towards women.. blaming the man more so.. that's news to me..

I agree with you @jld.. he is highly respected in his field.



I've thought about this a number of times.. but it's hard to put into words..

Wouldn't our world of relationships be a whole lot better if the majority of men did put the welfare of women 1st... but also at the same time (and don't miss this please).... women have a similar mindset in wanting to put their MAN 1st...

Let's say Gottman IS speaking to men to look to themselves 1st.. to get their act together..that a great responsibility is laid in their hands.... is this so bad coming from a man himself.. Personally I feel that makes him a good spokesperson for being an example.. - and hopefully HE is..

But at the same time we need a spokesperson for women to look at ourselves too... the power we hold , our influences too....to be the BEST wife we can be..to also enhance our relationships..

It's just more unsettling when each gender is quick to point blame on the other (like MGTOW and radical feminist groups) .. I find that far more unsettling...and not good for any of us..
So respected that he has shills trashing articles on him on Facebook and replacing negatives points of view with fluff and guff from his own website.
 
#31 ·
I believe his research book is called The Marriage Clinic. It should explain his methodology.
 
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#41 ·
I was at the car repair shop today, due to a leaky vacuum seal. The lady in front of me was there as she had not filled her tank with gas and it ran dry.

If she were to start lecturing me on how the reason my car was having problems was that I had not filled my tank with gas, everyone would think her ridiculous.

Yet, too many people think they can project the idiotic mistakes of their relationships unto others and that they should be admired as gurus for doing so.
 
#68 ·
As to what Gottman says, and I have read a lot of his stuff...there are some tidbits here and there that are good, common sense advice in the context of being gender neutral. I have been in three exclusive, long term, committed relationships in my life, and I can honestly say that most of what he says does not apply at best, or would have been actively destructive at worst to my personal experience.
 
#69 ·
His advice to men really seems to make some defensive. I wonder why they don't use it as an opportunity to increase their influence?
 
#74 ·
I think in a marriage with a reasonable woman, the man can definitely influence the marriage in the way Gottman discusses. When the woman is unreasonable, has a personality dysfunction, or is emotionally unhealthy/damaged, the man is not likely to be able to influence her much. It just doesn't work the same when dealing with a damaged partner!!!!
 
#75 ·
With almost no exposure to Gottman, I imagine he would not disagree.

Is it just here or in general that people have difficulty dealing with generalizations (that's not directed at you, just an observation). If Gottman has advice that "only" works for 70% of the population (and I do not know that he does), then there will be millions of exceptions, but many millions more who will find useful information. As long as we understand when the generalization breaks down, it's all good.
 
#81 ·
I don't have the energy to look further into the touch aversion link to serious developmental psychology issues, but I have confirmed that she's seriously touch averse. Not just to me but to her children. Only the cat - as long as he dies not shed - is immune.

A couple years ago I might have cared but today...
 
#109 ·
Likely so. Empathy can create space for influence.

And again, it is very important to choose carefully who we let into that space. Not all empathy is helpful to us.
 
#147 ·
MTO, I think you are trying to say that you feel there was nothing you could have done to prevent your divorce. And when you hear Gottman say that men are the key element to marriage success, you feel like he is assigning you agency you never felt you had.

You said you felt very comfortable dating a Danish woman. You liked the emphasis on "equality" between the sexes in Denmark. I found the following article on the subject. Does it seem accurate to you?

Comment: Dating Danish MEN - a guide for the foreign woman | University Post


Not the dominant figure


In Hollywood – or Bollywood – movies, the male actor is taller because he's supposed to be in charge, the dominant figure. But that's not true in Danish romance. The man is NOT in charge.

This means a lot if you're a foreign woman dating a Danish man. He is a not a Frenchman who will pursue you to the ends of the earth. He doesn't send flowers, he doesn't buy chocolates. He doesn't take you in his arms and kiss you until you're breathless. If you are a romance novelist, the Danish man is not your dream man.

If you're a feminist, a Danish man IS your dream man. He will cook and help with the housework. He will take being a father seriously. He'll spend time with the kids. He'll take your opinion seriously. He doesn't force himself on you. In fact, you may have to force yourself on him. But if you do, he'll usually be really grateful.

Cont. . .
 
#149 ·
Thanks, jld. I am certainly not like the average Danish man. I have lived in Denmark, so I am aware. If I found a niche there, it was from not being the same. If you had suggested to my wife that she did not follow my decisions, she would have thought you mad. I will say that article seems typical for many Danish women incidentally. As an Englishman the expectations are different.

However, you should know this. We have discussed it many times. You do not accept it as it does not fit with what you believe in your gut. That is because of your experiences. You cannot accept that people really did have different experiences than you, rather they just failed to see as well as you.

My point was not about me. You have not witnessed the main problem in a relationship being the ideas in a woman's head, or perhaps those problems being so deep that no family, friends or husband could get through to her. It does happen though. It happens to the poster whose wife suddenly developed an eating disorder and was 400lb. I am good at motivation and empathy, you cannot accept that as it would need you have to loosen your theory. I wore the trousers, but there are people in this world who have demons are are deluded and self-destructive. From what I have read of Gottman, he would give up on some relationships before you.

Gottman say men are key element. I agree. Typically, the man should lead and be the stronger one. Emotional weakness in a marriage can be the death of it. In the case, where one party is deluded and unwilling to self-examine, there is nothing that can be done. That is opinion of as many doctors and authors as you may wish to cite. What you are saying (not directly, but through your assumptions and dismissal of other opinions), is that the man is the only significant element. Essentially, I am the one agreeing with Gottman and you are not.
 
#148 ·
Here is the rest of it:

Danish women carry their own packages

Why are Danish men like this? I've asked my Danish male friends, and they say they're reacting to Danish women. Danish women, they say, like to do things for themselves. They don't want some clown opening the door for them, or helping them carry packages. They can carry their own packages. My Danish male friends say that after offering to be chivalrous a couple of times and getting turned down in a nasty manner, they don't want to do that any more.

So, the Danish male approach is largely passive. They wait to see if the woman is interested. I get a lot of mail from non-Danish women trying to figure out if the Danish man they're dating is interested in them. ''He's really happy when I call him, but he never calls me''.
I honestly don't know what to tell them. I mean, I come from a culture where men whistle at beautiful women they don't know walking down the street.

When I first moved to Denmark, I thought I'd stopped hearing whistles because I'd aged out of the whistle target group. But I've since established that beautiful young women don't get whistled at either. Danish men do not want to offend women.


Sometimes err on the soft side

Now, I'm a modern woman, and I like a lot of things about these modern men. But they can occasionally err a bit on the soft side.

For example, a few weeks ago, we had a big storm in Denmark, and it knocked down some large trees. Before the local government came to collect them, some people were sawing off bits for free firewood, or to make furniture, or other arts and crafts project.
On our street, there was a very large tree down, and as I was walking by that Saturday, I saw a young couple trying to take part of it home. The small, slender young woman was sawing away at this big tree with an old-fashioned manual saw, while her boyfriend was just standing there, smiling, with his hands in his pockets.

Now, I don't know what was going on.

Maybe he had a back injury – he was about 25, so maybe had a very youthful back injury. Maybe he was a professional hand model and couldn't risk his fingernails on a messy metal saw. Or maybe he was a big wimp who was willing to let his girlfriend saw a giant tree stump while he stood there, acting like a giant tree stump. Who knows?
 
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