Uptown

Not wanting to get out of bed is a hallmark of depression. And, if you are living with a BPDer, you have plenty to be depressed about. But instead of sitting in bed feeling sorry for yourself, there are many proactive things you should be doing to get on with your life. Did you read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells? (Another good one is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.) Did you visit the website BPDfamily.com?

EleGirl

This is easy to say today when you are upset today. Let her go. Work on yourself, become the best person you can be.

The decision to take her back or not is one for another day.

You might want to read the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harvey. You would learn a lot about yourself and about how to have a much better relationship. This will be necessary to fix this marriage if she returns or for a future relationship.

lafatherandhusband

LET HER GO. at this point its every man for himself. RUN, don't walk. she is angry and sick and nothing you can do will fix that. i wish i had known about BPD a year ago....
you are letting her drag you under with her. don't do it!! help her pack.

ClosedOff

At the very least get a separation from her. If your job is stressing you out so bad, your wife is making it 100 times worse with all the stress at home. No wonder your brain is blanking out at times and you're depressed. That's how it happens to me...whenever I get a sustained, high-intensity stress situation it always triggers depression for me. I even was so preoccupied once with all my anxieties that I turned left right in front of a guy and T-boned in the middle of the intersection. Having that much stress in your life is not good for your health, mental or otherwise!

BTW, it is possible to get "happy pills" that don't numb you up into nothingness. Citalopram is an older type of antidepressant, the brand name is Celexa. I had better luck myself on Lexapro, the newer version of that drug. If you don't like the way Lexapro makes you feel, you can try any number of others out there (whatever your doc feels is best) such as Wellbutrin, Elavil, Zoloft (my personal favorite), Pristiq, Paxil, Cymbalta, and the list goes on and on. I believe I tried about 5 of them altogether. So don't feel like you have to sacrifice who you are to feel better...there should be a happy medium there.

I would definitely get some therapy/counseling for yourself during this time. I've done that myself and had a lot of positive experiences with it. You want a therapist who asks leading questions and lets you talk, vent and discuss what's happening and who really seems to listen. Usually they will ask questions, make marks on their notepad and then give you "homework" before you go, things you can do to help yourself. For me doing the therapy was just a great way to get out my worst fears and problems with someone who was a neutral 3rd party. I didn't have to prove anything with them. And I feel like it really helped me through some tough times.

I hope you can move on and be with someone better. Your wife really sounds like she has no redeeming value anymore in this relationship. And it's ruining you. Save yourself!

Patricia B. Pina

You should get a divorce.
You are in a hell of a relationship.

SoWhat

My god, thank you so much for this thread!!

I've hurriedly read through everything I could get my hands on and am buying Stop Walking On Eggshells.
I do not want to try to diagnose her myself, but my GF seems to fit every single trait listed for BPD. Everything.

Telling her this would be wrong, correct?
I sometimes marvel, when we fight - usually when she blows up about something trivial (this morning: seeing a car on the road that was the same model as one owned by a girl who she knew had a crush on me a year ago) - about her ability to get mad at almost nothing. I'll say something aloud once out of every 20 times this happens. It generally makes her angrier.

But if I sounded like I was scientizing it, I think it would be worse.
(There I go again, walking on eggshells.)

Uptown

SoWhat, there is a world of difference between diagnosing a personality disorder (PD) and spotting strong occurrences of PD traits. You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to not spot strong traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and blame-shifting in a woman you've been dating for a year. There is nothing subtle or nuanced in such strong dysfunctional traits.

Before you graduated high school, you already could spot strong selfishness and grandiosity in classmates -- without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could spot extreme shyness and fear of rejection in classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. You could easily spot the class drama queen -- without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD. Likewise, you can spot the BPD traits once you read about them. I therefore applaud your willingness to educate yourself about your GF's issues -- as well as your own issues. Yes, that is correct. The conventional wisdom at all the BPD websites (targeted to the nonBPD partners) is to advise a BPDer to go to a clinical psychologist -- but NOT to tell her you suspect strong BPD traits. If you do, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing that YOU are the one with strong BPD traits.

Yet, being the caregiver that I am, I would not leave any stone unturned in trying to help my exW. So, after the divorce, I slipped a copy of a BPD book into a box of things she was coming by to pick up. Doing so did absolutely no good at all. And, of course, she now firmly believes that I am the one suffering from BPD. The reason that projection works so wonderfully in protecting a BPDer's fragile ego is that projection is done entirely at the subconscious level -- allowing the conscious to believe that the projection is true.Although it appears that way, she doesn't really get mad "about almost nothing." The reality -- if your GF is a BPDer -- is that she has been very angry since the age of 3 or 4. She has been carrying that anger just below the surface all those years. Hence, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. This is why it will be released, in only ten seconds, as a temper tantrum or hissy fit. While you're waiting for the book, I suggest you read T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. The other articles there at BPDfamily.com are excellent also. Another favorite of mine is therapist Shari Schreiber's description of BPDers at IF LOOKS COULD KILL - Anatomy of a Borderline. Schreiber's other articles also are excellent. Please take care, SoWhat.

EleGirl

The 180 is not the same thing as manning up.

__________________
Surviving An Affair - What Are Plan A and Plan B? 180 for Betrayed Spouses


To Create A Passionate Marriage - Five Steps to Romantic Love His Needs, Her Needs Love Busters

Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I stopped after reading your list, did not get to your wife's.
Why?
Because at that point, I'm thinking, heck, I can't even live with myself when I am like things on list #1. Let alone try to get another person to live with me. I think your W is right, you need to fix things for yourself. None of those issues seems to involve your W at all, they are stand-alone stickies that are the monkey on your back. It's wrong to ask her to pick fleas off that monkey, which isn't going to do any good really, just keep her occupied while more fleas breed happily on the monkey. Get that?

I see some simple things first.
Go to the doctor and get the sleep thing fixed.
Then the things like buying something you asked for as a gift will stop. You will also be less irritable, and have more confidence, since you'll be more aware.
You had a mental breakdown but if you don't like people and are biting your nails you didn't completely recover. If you came this far you owe it to yourself to keep going. I need to point this out...you should like to be with at least some people. Or, to rephrase, you should be more open-minded about the possibility, because you share the earth with loads of other people, some of whom you need to deal with to get food, shelter, clothing, entertainment, jobs... You're in your 20's, I think it's worth the investment, considering. Sartre said hell is other people...but I think there are limits.
Picking your nose is normal, just don't flick or eat and it's best if people are annoyed with you in the first place not to push the limits...so pick in the shower or in private, buy some tissues, some of the boxes are really nice.
Don't think I'm making light of this.
I'm cruising along merrily because I think you are stuck in some kind of rut where you got the idea, wrongly, that your issues were somehow more complex than they are...maybe you are even holding onto this notion, and it is getting perpetuated and enhanced by your isolation from other people, emotionally and physically.
As for your boss, you feel that he BS'd his way, but he is a risk-taker and he has the job of boss and part of that is not always knowing everything but being the boss and taking risks. Heck, I give my work away for free to help someone do her job and I tell her all the time, I don't want your job, it involves always being here and handling people issues and going out on a limb and managing your life plus a job...I would personally feel over-extended...but if there were no people willing to 'BS' and be willing to make mistakes so they can develop and grow, then there would be no bosses. I don't know if you noticed, demographically there was a baby boom, so the ratio of followers to leaders is kind of slim, and jobs and business environment have changed drastically...you are looking at a lot of pioneers. Now you are young and you could change your viewpoint and develop into appropriate risk taking yourself. It can be fun, and yes, some people will knock you down or try to knock you down for not knowing stuff, but most people will help you because they appreciate that you took on the risk...the rest of them...they obviously are too far out of their own heads and into nitpicking about other people making a living and having a life and taking risks. But first you need sleep. Then fun. Also a new hobby...do you have anything at all you ever wanted to do but were always thwarted in efforts to do it? Something that even if it isn't defiant would feel defiant to you to do it, because it would make no sense to anyone other than you? I suggest pursuing that, for a while. It will let everything else relax, you might even forget to bite your nails for a bit.

You are seeking help, but if your wife was not in the picture, if your marriage didn't even exist, in your present state of living...would you go the distance for yourself...? I think that's what your wife is getting at. You will never gain confidence if she goes with you, and if you fail at anything she is there to muddy the water as to why... she wants to give you the gift of confidence of sorting this out for yourself, I suggest you accept, for a while. Think of it as an adventure.

Uptown

Delup, I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore is consistent with your description of your W's numerous temper tantrums.

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts.

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your earlier comment, in another thread, that your W periodically detests you.

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder. Seeking a professional opinion is certainly prudent, Delup. For your own protection, however, I urge you to see a clinical psychologist -- ON YOUR OWN for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with. If your W has strong BPD traits, she almost certainly is a high functioning BPDer (or you would not have married her). This means there is little chance that a therapist would tell her the name of the disorder, much less tell you.

As I've explained in other threads, therapists generally are loath to tell HF-BPDer clients the name of their disorder -- primarily because the news could make her behavior worse, would like cause her to immediately terminate therapy, and would likely result in the insurance company refusing to cover the treatments. Hence, relying on HER therapist's advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on HER attorney's advice during the divorce. Like the attorney, her therapist is ethically bound to protect his sick client, regardless of whether you occasionally show up to ask questions.

Uptown

Yes. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they so strongly distort the person's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations that they undermine marriages and other close LTRs. Significantly, that can happen even when the strong traits fall well short of the diagnostic level. The relevant threshold for your purposes, then, is whether you are reasonably happy in the marriage.

The nine BPD traits therefore are NOT a disease -- like chickenpox -- that one "has" or "does not have." There is no identified disease. Instead, such traits are simply a group of behavioral symptoms -- like selfishness and irritability -- that vary in intensity among various individuals. Indeed, at low levels, these traits are desireable because they are essential for our survival. This is why they arise from the primitive ego defenses we all use 24/7 in early childhood -- and continue to use occasionally all through adulthood.

Splitting (a form of dissociation), for example, is something you and I do many times a day -- every time we daydream or are suddenly startled. A good example of the black-white thinking occurs when you are in a crosswalk and suddenly look up to see a truck bearing down on you. In emergencies like that, when you are suddenly startled, our brains are hard-wired to be capable only of B-W thinking. We can only think "jump left" or "jump right."

MaybeItsMe?

Homemaker_Numero_Uno thanks for your post, I agree I do need to work on myself and I have gone back on medication to help this. I went out today to see some of my friends and we off fishing etc, over Christmas I went over to see family and already feel much much better. Its a shame you didn't read the full list though.

As for my wife trying to give me confidence, I think if my wife is BDP she isn't thinking about me in any way in anything she does, I expect that now though and it makes it easier for me. Yes she has childish outburst, tantrums, my way or the highway, cut her nose of to spite her face but I just let her do it, she cools down eventually. There is still no sex but that is fine with me these days as well.

I think once I read the books it gave me the ability to really step back, she can't hurt me anymore becuase I know what to expect and thats ok with me. She is currently in a bad mood with me and sleeping down stairs but thats fine she will talk when she wants to. Its not that I don't care its just that I dont react in the way I used to do.

Some times she does open up a bit, she said to me yesterday that she thinks she is the least patient person she knows. I know she will never do anything about it and in some ways I think she thinks this is actually ok, its as if she is proud to be like that. When I ask her why she is like that she just says she takes no **** off anyone. Now when I say impatiant I am talking about seconds here, if she is ready and has to wait literally 2 seconds she is in a bad mood. If I am on the phone and she wants somthing then she makes it clear I have to get off the phone etc, she has to come first in every way. She has recently fell out with more people in work and currently has no friends again. Its a shame to see her destroy her own life but its her life to mess up, there is nothing I can do and in all honesty I dont want to try and help her. She can dig her hole as deep as she wants it makes no difference to me and in reality she cares so little about the people around her it actually makes no difference to her.

I recently found out that may years ago she was actually fired from her job due to her attitiude and unwillingness to adapt, or do what was asked of her. I also know that in highschool she had no real friends and people she did hang around with eventually got sick of her. Her first real boyfriend got fed up with her and finished with her becuase he couldn't handle her and she has been told in her current job that she needs to make some changes. I just wished should would go and talk to some one but that is simply never going to happen, she knows she has a problem but refuses to deal with it.

The only big issue at the moment is she wants a new house, now this is probably going to cause a major problem as I am not willing to fund it all but if I dont she will get really upset, although she wont see it as me funding it all and will some how have it in her head that she is funding it. I'll just have to think of a way around that issue. How she can try and buy a $400,000 house when she has $500 in savings and owes me probably over $4000 now, I will never know.

In many ways I am still looking forward to the day she walks out and doesn't come back and as with most BPD it will happen.

Uptown

Maybe, yes, that is what typically happens after about 12 to 15 years with most high functioning BPDers. Each year, a BPDer will become increasingly resentful with your "failure" to make her happy -- an impossible task. Moreover, you are accelerating that distancing processing now that you've stopped walking on eggshells around her all the time.

Because you are behaving like yourself, you are no longer validating her false self image of always being a perpetual "victim." BPDers become very intolerant of living with a spouse who refuses to validate that false image by assuming the role of "the perpetrator," i.e., refusing to accept blame for every misfortune that befalls her.

Caligyrl

Any updates? How are you doing these days?

SomeLady

Oops. This is an old thread. Never mind!