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Fine line of domestic violence

16K views 206 replies 27 participants last post by  Spotthedeaddog 
#1 ·
Warning! I expect this thread to talk about some things that are sensitive to some people. If you fear this will trigger you, perhaps you should stay away.

So what constitutes domestic violence?

Early in my courtship with my wife, she got mad at me one day and punched me in the shoulder, sorta hard. She claims to this day that it was supposed to be playful, but I didn't take it that way at the time, so I did the same right back at her. I warned her that I wasn't going to hit her nor was I going to become a punching bag, just in case she thought that a man was expected to do so.

That was the last such event in our relationship, over 30 years ago. To read some of the responses here to other threads when a relationship gets physical, I should instead have hauled her down to the police station, filed a report, had her jailed overnight, and dumped her as a guaranteed future abuser.

I think it's pretty obvious that I find this position to be an overreaction. Likewise, I'm not a big fan of putting a man in cuffs for holding his wife's wrists when she tries to give him a slap.

So look. I know why DV is a sensitive topic. I know why women in particular should be very careful. I don't condone violence and I don't support abusers. But doesn't a little common sense matter here? People will once in a while get slightly physical. As long as it doesn't escalate into actual harm, are we not overreacting a little to start talking about divorce, police, and lawsuits?

Anyway, I think so.
 
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#2 ·
I do agree that there has to be some common sense. Honestly though, I don't think there is one answer to draw the line as I am sure it will vary from person to person. What one person may consider as playful may not be for the next person. Let's say my W gets in my face (never actually happened, plus she would need to stand on a box), there would be a difference b/w me pushing her out of the way vs me putting all my strength into shoving her across the room. I am much stronger than my W, so what it playful for me may actually hurt her. If this is done repeatedly after warnings from my W, regardless of my insistence that I am being playful, it is actually a big issue.

I think it may be a matter of determining a) the severity of the violence and b) is this a recurring theme vs. first time.

Tough one TBH.
 
#3 ·
Looking back, do you think you overreacted?
 
#4 ·
No. I may have misinterpreted, but I reacted precisely how I think I should have reacted given what I thought was in play. No one was bruised, bloodied, injured, or psychologically scarred in any way.
 
#5 ·
When I was in college, I had broken up with my gf. Around 3 am all liquored up she knocks and I don't answer.
She kicks the door down and pretty much assaults me. I'm a big guy so I just shove her off of me and she goes flying into the wall. She then starts throwing stuff at me. Anyway, neighbors call the cops and they hand cuff me and start hauling me off to jail.

I plead with them as they are hauling me off. I'm the sober one...she kicked my door in.
Finally, one cop sees her little shoe print embossed in my door and I think it dawns on him.
The pretty little girl is sh*tfaced and responsible for the whole mess.

They uncuff me and let me go. Do they take her to jail. Nope. They ask me to let her sleep on my
couch so they don't have to take her to jail.

White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.
 
#6 ·
White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.
Do you consider that situation domestic violence? On another thread here someone was pointing out that getting into your spouse's face is DV.
 
#11 ·
My wife was/is a rough customer, growing up with 4 brothers (and you better believe I was pretty rough myself to even survive the crap they dished my way when I first started dating her).

We were pretty young when we started dating, 18 and 20, and immaturity was probably part of it, but she knew more ways to hurt somebody than my drill instructor. She'd get me in these finger holds that I couldn't get out of, even though I'm 9 inches taller than her.

It's probably a pretty subjective thing, but not once did I consider it to be domestic violence. More like foreplay.
 
#12 ·
I think it is a question of fear. If we were in a discussion and my much larger husband restrained me, I might feel genuine fear of escalation of being hit or grabbed. If he hit me, I would be terrified. If I hit my husband, he would not feel fear. He would do exactly as you did. The only problem is that if I was a beotch and chose to call the police, he may well spend an evening in jail.
 
#17 ·
@Cletus, my husband would have done the same thing you did... and rightfully so. Sorry, she (or even I) can claim "playfulness" all she/I likes. She was mad and punched you. It pisses me off when some think that a man should just "take it", solely BECAUSE he is a man. No, he shouldn't. He should NOT expect his gf or wife will hit him, any more than a wife should expect it of her husband. But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him!

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#33 ·
Odd... my husband cornered me, only once like that. And he does have significant strength over me. You know what I did? I stood there, defiantly. When he was done, I told him that if he EVER did that again, he was out of our home. And YES, I absolutely have that authority. Never did it again. He is bigger than I am. He is stronger than I am. But I refused to be intimidated. I absolutely did not view it as domestic violence, and I still don't.

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#51 ·
Odd... my husband cornered me, only once like that. And he does have significant strength over me. You know what I did? I stood there, defiantly. When he was done, I told him that if he EVER did that again, he was out of our home. And YES, I absolutely have that authority. Never did it again. He is bigger than I am. He is stronger than I am. But I refused to be intimidated. I absolutely did not view it as domestic violence, and I still don't.
Odd... your situation is not the only one out there

Some people are not as strong emotionally as you and does not know how to react. So their SO just keeps doing it because they get away with it. And their person being cornered gets more and more scared of their SO.

Some times you can tell the person not to do that as you did, and they do it anyway.. often. And sometimes there are situations under which a person cannot just leave. They cannot set a boundary like that and leave. And knowing that, the abusive SO just keeps on doing it.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I support gender equality to the extent there can be equality. If your wife or gf is much smaller then an equal response is too much....not only does it take less to hurt her but a guy can generally do a lot more damage.

It's like a kid hitting me.....I don't have to take it but my response has to be measured and appropriate or I'm going to jail.

If we had real equality men would carry babies, but we will never be completely equal.

Size isn't everything though, I'm 5'4 and a size 2 but I also have a 2nd degree black belt and could do some damage. Having said that I'm sure if he punched me it would do a lot of damage to me.

But if I were violent I'd expect him to dump me.

People shouldn't be hitting. However, if you want to teach your girl a little empathy if she hits by all means do it, but make sure your response is similar to what you got from her perspective. When fighting junior belts we're taught to only return what is given to us so that they feel what we felt and nothing more.

That being said, if it happens once and you want to write it off i see no issue. But if it happens again you should reconsider the relationship.
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#37 ·
That being said, if it happens once and you want to write it off in see no issue. But if it happens again you should reconsider the relationship.
People learn all sorts of incorrect ways of dealing with things. My wife had 3 brothers. As long as a person is willing to learn and modify her behavior, I don't see a lot of value in hauling her off to jail or abandoning her as an unfit spouse.

This topic is, of course, typical for TAM and the internet. Here in Dodge City, people shoot first and ask questions later. "Dump him!" "Serve Him!" "Run for the hills!" "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". Nuance is not our strong point, collectively.
 
#45 ·
So just a bit of background on me. I have been a cop for 16 years. I have a minor in sociology with an emphasis on domestic violence and I was once the tri county lead detective of the domestic violence. So educational wise and how domestic violence laws work I am very familiar with. I have never been the victim of or the perpatrator of domestic violence.

So with the background I can say with certainty that many think they understand domestic violence but until you have lived it or least heard first hand accounts of those trying to escape it you just don't. Here in Colorado all intimate couple partners fall under the umbrella of domestic violence provision. So I steal 50$ from my buddy and he presses charges I get a ticket. I steal from my GF the state presses charges no matter what she says about it and I go to jail for the night. Is that reasonable and prudent, I don't know in some cases yes in other cases no.

Make no mistake this is serious business. For as long as I have been a cop we, law enforcement, have had zero discretion in this matter. So even if the victim is begging us to not arrest his wife or her husband doesn't matter we have to. The penalties of not doing so go far beyond getting in trouble with work.....you can loose you certification, you can be fined by the state, in extreme circumstances you can ever be jailed for failure to arrest. So we always have that fear in the back of our head of not doing something. So the answer for many years was just arrest everyone . well now they are coming down on that as well.

Here are the problems with most domestic violence investigations unique to this class of crime.

1) establishing they are a couple. When do they become a couple? Is it after 5 dates? After sex? What if they were a couple but now they haven't been married for 10 years is it still domestic violence. (Answer to last one is yes by the way). All these things need to be answered before you really even know if they qualify under domestic violence
2) no witnesses. You are generally presented with two people both who are telling you completely different stories and neither being honest
3) victim recants. This is the biggest problem for prosecution. So yes I can arrest even if the victim doesn't want me to. I have to. But an uncooperative victim who won't show up to court, or will lie is a nightmare for the DA trying to win the case
4) lack of education on the public. This word violence really misleads people. How many times have I arrested someone who argued with me all the way to jail that because they didn't hit the other party they can't go to jail. They are wrong. Any crime between a couple is domestic violence
5) lack of education on law enforcement. A big part of my job when I was a lead detective was to education civilian and military law enforcement on DV investigations. Much of it covered topics like criminal history and predominate aggressor. Some will latch on to these concepts and some never will even knowing the consequences. That becomes a nightmare for their peers and supervisors. My department is large and we have training and annual training. Many smaller departments don't.


Reality behind the myths:

Domestic violence crosses all racial and economic groups

Men and women can violate the law but men tend to be guilty of more physical violence and women more property damage

Both men and women unreport this crime ,men at a higher percentage than women. Both genders many times don't know they are even the victim of a crime because they focus on this word violence.

Violence is not ok in relationships ........EVER..... I get disturbed seeing some here downplay violence as OK for some genders but not for others. It's not ok for any gender and both should have consequences.
 
#46 ·
Violence is not ok in relationships ........EVER..... I get disturbed seeing some here downplay violence as OK for some genders but not for others. It's not ok for any gender and both should have consequences.
I consider this to be a classic social pendulum response to a real problem.

We have a real problem that we have to solve, but the reaction to that problem goes so far overboard that it winds up being nearly as egregious as the original issue.

It seems to be human nature. At least the pendulum usually swings back over time, with a lower amplitude oscillation.
 
#54 ·
I never think physically attacking or even intimidating your spouse is ok. It's clearly a divorcable offense. Strangely enough, I think a woman who hits a man is worse than a man who hits a woman. Not due to the actual action of physically assaulting your spouse, but because she is clearly putting herself at a major risk. If she is at the point where she is being physical with him, there should be zero expectations he won't retaliate, as clearly this is the type of couple you are.

When I was in middle school, my high school sister got I a physical fight with her boyfriend and he ran out of the house. I was too young to do anything, but obviously my dad was livid and talked about killing him and whatnot. Go to find out he called her a **** (probably true at the time), she cursed him out, he threatened her like he was going to spread rumors and she clocked him in the face with a phone. Not a cell phone, but a yellow, 12 button 1980s phone. He then open handed her across the face. Do I condone it? Hell no. But I understand.
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#55 ·
I never think physically attacking or even intimidating your spouse is ok. It's clearly a divorcable offense. Strangely enough, I think a woman who hits a man is worse than a man who hits a woman. Not due to the actual action of physically assaulting your spouse, but because she is clearly putting herself at a major risk. If she is at the point where she is being physical with him, there should be zero expectations he won't retaliate, as clearly this is the type of couple you are.

When I was in middle school, my high school sister got I a physical fight with her boyfriend and he ran out of the house. I was too young to do anything, but obviously my dad was livid and talked about killing him and whatnot. Go to find out he called her a **** (probably true at the time), she cursed him out, he threatened her like he was going to spread rumors and she clocked him in the face with a phone. Not a cell phone, but a yellow, 12 button 1980s phone. He then open handed her across the face. Do I condone it? Hell no. But I understand.
what do you understand? Him? Her? both?
 
#57 ·
Him, she took it physical. He was a db to the highest order, so it's not like I'd shed a tear. But you clock someone in the face with a phone, you deserve to be cracked. I don't care who you are, and it's not about mysogeny or sexism.

Really, you are doing them a favor by showing them that when you stick your tongue on a hot stove, it will get burned.
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#58 ·
I don't think it is ever okay to hit anyone, for any reason. I would certainly never advise it.

What you do when it happens anyway is the question.
 
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#59 ·
You didn't grow up a boy on a city playground where respect sometimes came only from a balled-up fist. I don't mean "looked up to" respect, I mean the kind that allows you to just live your life without the presence of constant bullying.
 
#71 ·
I guess people turn to violence when they feel they reasonably able to. If Cletus had not thought he could punch his wife, likely without damage to himself, he probably would not have done it.

Would you have claimed self defense, Cletus, if someone had reported you? Why or why not?
 
#73 ·
I agree that there is usually a better way than violence. Violence should only be used as a last resort. So, if someone calls you a "***** ass ****" there are other resorts than hitting them. If is constantly antagonizing you and won't leave you alone after repeated tells not to, then they should get clocked in the face.
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#74 ·
I agree that there is usually a better way than violence. Violence should only be used as a last resort. So, if someone calls you a "***** ass ****" there are other resorts than hitting them. If is constantly antagonizing you and won't leave you alone after repeated tells not to, then they should get clocked in the face.
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No.

Otherwise we would have a law saying after x amount of times of feeling aggressed, you can "clock them in the face."

Does clock mean punch, btw?
 
#88 ·
So what constitutes domestic violence?

Early in my courtship with my wife, she got mad at me one day and punched me in the shoulder, sorta hard. She claims to this day that it was supposed to be playful, but I didn't take it that way at the time, so I did the same right back at her. I warned her that I wasn't going to hit her nor was I going to become a punching bag, just in case she thought that a man was expected to do so.

That was the last such event in our relationship, over 30 years ago. To read some of the responses here to other threads when a relationship gets physical, I should instead have hauled her down to the police station, filed a report, had her jailed overnight, and dumped her as a guaranteed future abuser.

I think it's pretty obvious that I find this position to be an overreaction. Likewise, I'm not a big fan of putting a man in cuffs for holding his wife's wrists when she tries to give him a slap.

So look. I know why DV is a sensitive topic. I know why women in particular should be very careful. I don't condone violence and I don't support abusers. But doesn't a little common sense matter here? People will once in a while get slightly physical. As long as it doesn't escalate into actual harm, are we not overreacting a little to start talking about divorce, police, and lawsuits?

Anyway, I think so.

Oh boy, that's a sticky question! I'd go with unwarranted physical assault. But I'm not a good person.

I don't think your response was an overreaction. Why call the cops, bring in men armed with guns, to resolve a situation that can be resolved with the back of your hand and a serious discussion about how this is the first and last time this situation will occur?

I don't go around hitting women (or men for that matter) when I get angry at them. And in exchange, I expect the same courtesy. It's called reciprocity. If a woman feels like she's above such things, and that I can just be slapped around, then I'll reciprocate.

I do think there's a practicality case to be made, for a man to call the cops the first time. If you hit her back, you're likely going to jail if she wants you to. And that isn't a really big deal, except a DV conviction can cost you your rights permanently in the US. (ie gun ownership goes out the window) So it's worth weighing.

The real question I'd pose is this: Is $300 and a night in jail worth your self respect, and nipping that kind of behavior in the bud?
 
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#95 ·
"Can men be the victims of domestic violence?

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, 95 percent of the victims of domestic violence are women. The National Crime Victimization Survey consistently finds that no matter who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured than are men. It's important to realize the climate of intimidation and control that occurs in abusive families. Most men will say they are not afraid of the woman with whom they live, even if they had also been hit, scratched, or punched by her. However, you'll often hear that women are terrorized and live in constant fear of being battered by the man with whom they live. The difference in strength and physical size puts a woman at more risk than a man."


Domestic Violence
 
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#107 ·
I thought this was interesting:

"This gets to the heart of what must change. We cannot expect to end domestic violence solely through our criminal justice system because that is applying an individual-level response to a social problem. Domestic violence impacts nearly 20 percent of adult women. We should consider approaching men’s domestic violence as a significant behavioral and public health issue, similar to smoking, which requires large-scale, adequately funded prevention and intervention efforts that can be covered by health insurance. Domestic violence programs have been shown to reduce recidivism odds by more than 60 percent.

Only then will we see any significant increase in accountability of offenders across our communities and safety for our women and children in their homes."


Mandatory Prosecutions Wouldn't Change Violent Behavior - NYTimes.com
 
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#165 ·
I have 0 tolerance for physical violence in a marriage. I grew up in an abusive home. If my husband so much as shoved me, or stood over me yelling, I would divorce him that minute. Yes, I consider standing over someone and yelling to be violent behavior.

As for advocating that someone should just hit their spouse back to teach them some kind of lesson, that has to be one of the most dysfunctional things I've read on this board. Smh.
 
#166 ·
We come from a history of extreme violence. Stealing a person's money was a serious crime but beating them nearly to death while doing so was not. We start moving forward to a society where violence is frowned upon and we write down that people should probably stop hurting each other, but we still have people in our society who grew up seeing their neighbour beat his wife senseless on a regular basis and nothing was ever done and no one ever helped her, but we persecute a woman on a forum for having the point of view that DV against women is a bigger problem than DV against men. The move to equality is not going to be without some residual anger at the injustices committed, but the anger against women in society for daring to put a toe over the line of perceived equality that is regularly stomped on by their male counterparts (yeah, just dare to be a woman online who speaks up for other women and wait for the death and rape threats from men to pour in) is like pouring boiling water on a burn.
 
#171 · (Edited)
but we persecute a woman on a forum for having the point of view that DV against women is a bigger problem than DV against men.
That is not what she said she said we should not worry about violence against the men because the woman are a bigger problem.

And I qoute -

"I would certainly help him in any way I could. And I would encourage anyone who is so inspired to help other men as well.

But nothing I am seeing as I read indicates the risk is equal. I will be focusing on where, according to page after page I am reading, the risk is greater."

Taking that logic into account then since two-thirds of homicide victims (68%) were male - England (I posted this for you Matt):p and
of the 12,996 murder victims in 2010 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.4 percent) were male - USA we should really only put our resources towards male homicides, because they are two-thirds at risk.

Do you see how stupid that logic is? Only a person blind by their own bigotry could make such a statement. It should be laughed at not supported.
 
#168 ·
I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!

In that moment, I had no choice - there was no way in he!l I was going out that door with him...no way. I'll never forget how I felt in that moment - blind terror.

Domestic Violence is a scourge in all societies, and the perpetrators, regardless of gender, should be punished severely. My husband's ex wife used to yell and scream at him a lot, and one day she went to far and jumped on him, knocking him to the ground, and tried to strangle him - while their 4 year old daughter stood at the top of the stairs watching :( He wrestled her off and walked outside, grabbed an esky and to dispense his rage bashed it against a tree in the front yard. Did he charge her? Nope. Didn't even call the cops. I couldn't believe it - I told him he should have called the police, she should've been hauled off to jail and been charged with domestic violence. You'd better believe she'd have done that to him if the situation were reversed.
 
#170 ·
I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!
Awsome!
 
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#177 ·
On the original topic of domestic violence.

I believe it is unacceptable to ever attempt to cause your partner physical harm. I would never do, or accept an from of grabbing, slapping, punching etc (obvious caveats about consensual BDSM play).

If my partner hit me, my actions would depend on the attack:

If it did actual harm, or I had to use force to defend myself, I would report it to the police first time. Then I would leave / divorce, all further contact to be through an attorney.

If there was no harm and it was in sudden rage, and if it was my wife, I would make it clear that there was just this one chance ever. Any future hitting, no matter what the motivation, would be cause for divorce.


That said, DV is often a very fuzzy thing, and many people are in much more complex situations than I am, and do not have the option of simply leaving.
 
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