General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
Seriously, with STDs so prevalent, how can anyone object to snooping IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS? We are talking risking one's life.
I'm not objecting IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS and have already stated that SEVERAL TIMES. I do object to those here claiming they have an inherent (and, according to Mr. Harvard, legal) right to spy and that married people have no right or expectation to private communications.
And before you claim nobody is suggesting that, re-read the thread.
Making up things about married people owning one another's property isn't dumbing down. It's just dumb. Posted via Mobile Device
I'm not objecting IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS and have already stated that SEVERAL TIMES. I do object to those here claiming they have an inherent (and, according to Mr. Harvard, legal) right to spy and that married people have no right or expectation to private communications.
And before you claim nobody is suggesting that, re-read the thread.
Making up things about married people owning one another's property isn't dumbing down. It's just dumb. Posted via Mobile Device
I'd need to research it, Frank, but, I think with community property laws that items acquired during the marriage may very well be jointly owned. I don't practice family law, but,it seems there very well may be an argument that a spouse has an ownership interest in the other spouse's property, suchthat it would not be considered theft if taken, provided the ownership was attained during the marriage
I will check and get back to you..
I had complete trust in my W. Not only complete, but blind too, never ever thought about snooping on her private interactions. My needs were not even getting met, however I chose to MARRY, which means a vow to work through anything.
Which is why it hurt to bad when she chose to reject me, out of the blue it seemed, and end our marriage. Nothing added up, she insisted there was nothing I was doing wrong, there was nobody else, she just wanted to be alone.
She would have left me in limbo and not looked back. Of course in reality there was somebody else, she really didn't want to be alone, she just didn't want to be with me and didn't think she owed it to me to tell me why or give me a hint. Yes she was selfish and immature and I am better off without her, but how could I move on without the truth? Nobody else is going to tell me, the world wouldn't notice is I just stayed in limbo forever.
It was not until I had to learn the truth for myself that I could move on, so I say to any other loyal spouse whose SO is checking out of the marriage or putting up red flags that something in the marriage is amiss, listen to your gut. It is your duty to your own self to know what happens in your marriage. Themightypenguin's argument may hold water during dating or in non-committed relationships but not after both parties have agree to a monogamous lifelong partnership.
I stand by my code of ethics quite strongly, and don't believe invading anyone's privacy is ever right, but when my marriage was under threat, and even falling apart I have no ethical qualms about doing what I had to do (snooping, sneaking, spying) in order to find out what was really happening to my marriage, because it is clear that there is no other way I would have gotten there, and I would still be in limbo indefinitely (which shouldn't be any betrayed spouses burden to carry). Even if the truth revealed there was no infidelity, both partners still deserve it, and in my opinion are entitled to it (even if there is no "legal" right to know).
I guess i would also need to look at privacy laws re communications being intercepted etc. My first impression is that , provided the communications were in the marital home (or car or whatever that is jointly owned) and the communication is carried out on a jointly owned item(this ties back into the community property analysis) there is no crime or tort.
But, I don't think it is clear at all that a spouse has a right of privacy relative to communications under these circumstances.
As i understand the recent holding in the case where the wife tried to have her husband prosecuted under some federal wiretapping law, the court found that the law did not apply to marriage siituations. Some Federal Appellate decision.
I'd need to research it, Frank, but, I think with community property laws that items acquired during the marriage may very well be jointly owned.
The great majority of states aren't community property states (less than 10 are) and even then there are numerous exceptions to what is defined as community property. A gift, for example.
And even then, shared ownership over a piece of hardware, such as a phone or computer, does not mean shared ownership of the communications therein, as some snoopers have found out the hard way.
But ultimately, it remains absolutely false to suggest, as Harvard did, that one spouse owns another spouse's belongings.
Edit: Community property laws typically are put in place to deal with the division of assets upon divorce or death, so in some instances may not even be relevant to one's right to access. I don't know the answer to that, but suspect the two issues may not be interchangeable.
Again, I will check. I think one would be hard pressed to have a spouse prosecuted for intercepting communications, particularly,on a family computer, regardless of who purchased it. See the case referenced. Should be easy to google.
If the asset was acquired during the marriage, I think it lekley belongs to both parties, unless, as you say, it was a gift. With the comingling of family funds from each spouse's income, it would be difficult to establish that the other spouse did not contribute toward the purchase.
Again interesting, but, clearly not so cut and dried so as to justify stating that someone using this analysis, like Scion, is out to lunch.
The problem being that very few cheating spouses behave like adults. If, as you say you would do, you ask your wife if she's cheating, whether she is or not, the answer you're likely to hear is, "Of course not. Don't be ridiculous." So, let's say you take her word for it, but something still feels "off." What would you do at that point. Your suggestion reminds me of an old Robin Williams bit in which he talks about British police not carrying weapons: "Stop! Or I'll say, 'Stop!' again."
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who's delighted at having spied to learn the truth when 1+1 wasn't coming out as 2, but learning the truth allowed them a sense of clarity to determine if their marriage could survive.
I agree that cheating is a symptom and not a cause. But how do you propose to "fix it" if you don't know what's broken? As noted before, cheating spouses won't tell you. They frequently won't even tell you that anything is wrong, despite being asked directly, "What's wrong?" To illustrate, if all I do is walk into a room, flip the light switch, and I'm still in the dark, how do I know what the proper solution is? It may be as simple as a burnt out bulb. It may be a blown fuse. It may be faulty wiring. It may he a power outage in the area. I've got to determine the nature of the problem first.
You also appear to assume that, once methods to verify information are put into place, that the betrayed spouse spends every waking moment monitoring those sources. While it may certainly seem that way at first, if confirmation of infidelity is found, and the decision is made to reconcile, these methods - including full transparency (hopefully, Frank won't mind me using the "T" word) - are normally used to rebuild trust, and as trust is reestablished, the tools are needed and used less and less frequently. There also needed less as truly open communication is reestablished. Posted via Mobile Device
I don't disagree with what you've said.
I personally would not spy on my spouse. If I couldn't resolve things to my satisfaction I'd probably leave the relationship. I don't think that is a cut and dry process and it certainly wouldn't be easy.
I also think the meaning of full transparency is up for debate. A casual glance at her phone or looking at email while both parties are present? Possibly assuming a spouse has cheated or some other breach of trust has occurred. Keylogging, gps, etc. IMO that crosses a line into unhealthy behavior.
My primary disagreement is that we are owned by our spouse (not speaking to you specifically). I don't believe we have a right to know everything our spouse does/says/sees/etc. In a committed relationship I believe we have a responsibility to our spouses to be honest about our needs and insecurities. The right partner should understand and work with us to strengthen the relationship and eliminate any issues.
If I'm suspecting my SO of cheating I would confront her with reasons why. If I get the don't be ridiculous response I acknowledge that it is indeed possible I'm being ridiculous. But, I still have these feelings and they aren't going away so what can we do? If she still protests and won't budge I'll have some decisions to make. Regardless of legality, spying on her would not be one of them. I can't think of any situation I've been in where spying would have made a difference.
Both relationships I've been involved in where cheating was suspected ended. In one case it was confirmed by her. The second I don't really know, but, in hindsight, the relationship was going to end either way.
Spying probably causes more problems than it helps. Our insecurities can get the best of us and I'm willing to be many relationships end as a result with no infidelity having occurred.
I can only imagine the hell it must be to have to answer to your spouse constantly. Then you lie about stopping for ice cream because you just wanted a few moments of peace without being accused of seducing the girl behind the counter. Word gets back to your wife that you were at 31 flavors the other day and all the sudden you're hiding things and deserving of surveillance.
Fixing a bad relationship or personal insecurities is tough. It's going to be specific to each relationship. In general I would say look at yourself. Improve yourself. Communicate honestly. Become more generous emotionally. Show your spouse that you do indeed love them and want to make life better for both of you. If you're still stonewalled bring up separation as a last resort.
Some people are just bad people. If your spouse is one of them cut your losses and don't make the same mistake again. Be thankful that you have the option to leave and start over. Today's world is very forgiving of such things.
I'm not condemning anyone here. Just giving my (not so educated) opinion.
I think we are talking apples and oranges. There is a middle ground between just out of the blue snooping and that done as the result of clues, red flags, if you will.
I also think it is entirely different if the one is talking about a marriage , with kids , and a romantic relationship. In the mere romance, I agree that if you are feeling suspicious it makes sense to just walkaway. The stakes are higher with kids and a am marriage.
In my first mariage, i did little to investigat, other than to observe what was in plain view. My proof was , pretty much , incontrevertible, but, I still had some doubts when I divorced(not so much anymore, after reading aabout all the classic signs. but, this was pre-internet.)
When things started to add up to the same behavior in my second marriage, i was way more proactive and asked a PI I use in my practie to look into things. i had never even contemplated spying on my XW until all the signs reappeared.
And, I am very glad i got the evidence, as my wife would have never come clean and i would have been cast as a bad husband , justifying her divorce.
In no way do I think investigating equates to feeling as if one has ownership of anyone.
Again, I will check. I think one would be hard pressed to have a spouse prosecuted for intercepting communications, particularly,on a family computer, regardless of who purchased it. See the case referenced. Should be easy to google.
If the asset was acquired during the marriage, I think it lekley belongs to both parties, unless, as you say, it was a gift. With the comingling of family funds from each spouse's income, it would be difficult to establish that the other spouse did not contribute toward the purchase.
Again, this is the case only in common property states, of which there are few. In most states, if I buy a phone, it's my phone, whether I'm married or not.
And, again, co-ownership of the hardware is not the same as co-ownership of what's on it.
For example, if I had a company email containing trade secrets on my phone, does my wife now have the legal right to those trade secrets?
And, yes, people have been prosecuted for snooping into a spouse's electronic communications, mostly under computer tampering/fraud statutes. The case you cite was a wiretapping case.
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Again interesting, but, clearly not so cut and dried so as to justify stating that someone using this analysis, like Scion, is out to lunch.
Sorry, but it's provably out to lunch. Posted via Mobile Device
I think we are talking apples and oranges. There is a middle ground between just out of the blue snooping and that done as the result of clues, red flags, if you will.
I also think it is entirely different if the one is talking about a marriage , with kids , and a romantic relationship. In the mere romance, I agree that if you are feeling suspicious it makes sense to just walkaway. The stakes are higher with kids and a am marriage.
In my first mariage, i did little to investigat, other than to observe what was in plain view. My proof was , pretty much , incontrevertible, but, I still had some doubts when I divorced(not so much anymore, after reading aabout all the classic signs. but, this was pre-internet.)
When things started to add up to the same behavior in my second marriage, i was way more proactive and asked a PI I use in my practie to look into things. i had never even contemplated spying on my XW until all the signs reappeared.
And, I am very glad i got the evidence, as my wife would have never come clean and i would have been cast as a bad husband , justifying her divorce.
In no way do I think investigating equates to feeling as if one has ownership of anyone.
Not sure if you were replying to me, but I definitely think hiring a PI to follow a cheating spouse for evidence in a divorce is justifiable. I would view that more as gathering evidence for legal action. I understand that can have a huge impact on the outcome of a divorce.
The mental image I have of people studying chat logs and facebook posts looking for infidelity is what I am against.
In the brief reading I just did, Frank, it seems whether the state is community property or not is not determinative. as you mention, that seems to only figure into divorce type situations. Even the states that are not community property refer to assets acquired during the marriage as jointly owned.
Makes sense , if you think about it, as the funds used to buy the asset are , most likely either comingled or at least contributed to by a non working spouse by way subsudizing the families lifestyle by manning the homefront.
In other words, i doubt one could have one's spousepresecuted for grabbing one's cell phone or intalling a keylogger on a jointly owned computer.
And, if the asset was acquired during the marriage, it would be jointly owned(again, unless gifted).
I don't recall ever seeing a prosecution for theft involving a spouse taking something purchased by the other spouse, unless they are seperated or divorced.
Not sure if you were replying to me, but I definitely think hiring a PI to follow a cheating spouse for evidence in a divorce is justifiable. I would view that more as gathering evidence for legal action. I understand that can have a huge impact on the outcome of a divorce.
The mental image I have of people studying chat logs and facebook posts looking for infidelity is what I am against.
It's not much different, mighty. Just having a contractor do similar legwork.
I was not going to be able to use it in a divorce, as here, as in many states, it gave me no leverage. I just really was confused and thought I had lost it. I am not the jealous or possessive type at all, but my gut was screaming and I wanted to know the truth.
If I wanted to be able to make an informed decison, i needed Info and my XW would have never provided it, voluntarily.
In the brief reading I just did, Frank, it seems whether the state is community property or not is not determinative. as you mention, that seems to only figure into divorce type situations. Even the states that are not community property refer to assets acquired during the marriage as jointly owned.
Makes sense , if you think about it, as the funds used to buy the asset are , most likely either comingled or at least contributed to by a non working spouse by way subsudizing the families lifestyle by manning the homefront.
In other words, i doubt one could have one's spousepresecuted for grabbing one's cell phone or intalling a keylogger on a jointly owned computer.
And, if the asset was acquired during the marriage, it would be jointly owned(again, unless gifted).
I don't recall ever seeing a prosecution for theft involving a spouse taking something purchased by the other spouse, unless they are seperated or divorced.
OK, what I've found and what I know (not regarding theft, but the other issues) sayd something different.
Regardless, this has gone way off topic and I'll just respectfully agree to disagree here rather than continue arguing for argument's sake. Posted via Mobile Device
It would make a good law school test question. My point was, merely, that Scion's analysis is not whacked. even if he were wrong, which I doubt, he raised an interesting issue.
But, I don't think it is clear at all that a spouse has a right of privacy relative to communications under these circumstances.
As i understand the recent holding in the case where the wife tried to have her husband prosecuted under some federal wiretapping law, the court found that the law did not apply to marriage siituations. Some Federal Appellate decision.
At the Federal level:
The Fourth, Sixth, Eighth, Tenth, and Eleventh Circuits have all held that interspousal wiretapping and interception of email is actionable under Title III.
The Second and Fifth Circuits have held that Title III does not apply to interspousal relations.
At the State level:
Sixteen states so far have enacted legislation that under most circumstances prohibit using this software on another adult. (I've listed them previously)
So your mileage may vary considerably depending upon where you live.
