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post #16 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:51 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I found this part of the article interesting... questioning that last part.. not sure if it has to do with religion.. but an openness about sex , intimacy... and not feeling one is putting it over the other...

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The younger the respondent, the more likely they were to get a divorce after starting to view porn. In contrast, porn and divorce showed a weaker link in people who attended an organized worship service at least once a week and said they were religious. The latter finding surprised the researchers, who initially thought that that adding pornography into more religious marriages would lead to higher rates of divorce.
When we were just married...I put in a porn disk after ordering condoms from Adam & Eve...I was curious.. it was hard core.. we both hated it... it totally disgusted me!@#.. had more than 2 people, wasn't romantic.. He never liked that sort of thing either..

So I always had a bad taste in my mouth on it.. but then in mid life, suddenly I wanted to look upon it in the worst way....everything about SEX.. .I wanted to try new things, spice it up & down... but still I wanted the more Romantic porn.. I always loved a heated erotic scene in the movies anyway.. this just took it a step further..

So then I rented it.. I sought out all the "instructional videos".. like those on Lovingsex.com geared towards couples ....

It DIDN'T hurt us... it was a whole lot of fun!! Maybe I should be ashamed.....he liked a different sort of Video over me..(Just women.. I found stuff for him too).... and a lot of it was just awful (Hard core, disrespectful), can't tell by what is on the label of these flicks..... put the DVD in.. and out it goes !

I just want to speak honestly here.. If my husband was religious and judged me over this.. I honesty think THAT would have torn us apart ..... the fact we both feel the same about intimacy (the more the better) but still enjoy some erotic viewing -on occasion.. (Heck haven't watched anything in months now)...

This I feel makes all the difference, on how a couple feels on it.. what works for them...

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post #17 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:54 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....

Still it seems plausible. Some watchers will get addicted, directly causing relationship problems. Others will turn to porn rather than try to solve existing problems with their sex life.
Correct

It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to porn. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?

Sort of like looking at why someone depressed turns to alcohol without knowing why they are depressed in the first place.

Still as with porn, or alcohol or whatever some will have a problem with these things and others won't. Hopefully those with problems will get help
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post #18 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:06 PM
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Cool Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

Solely from a quasi-statistical standpoint, I've been married twice, with both W's, at some point in time, insisting on watching some of these VHS movies (that should quickly infer just how old I am) as "aids," but it seemed to make them so much more hornier than I ever got from viewing them!

I never ever encouraged either of them! Even my RSXW, just as with her first H, even wanted to video us "at work," but I strenuously objected!

Analysis: two XW's who like watching those things who slid of the deep end into adulterous affairs!

If there ever is a third Mrs. Arb, well let's just say that if I have anything to say about it, we won't be viewing those things together!

In a committed marriage, I should look upon my W as my very own "personal pornography," and would totally hope that she, in turn, should look upon me as hers!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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Last edited by arbitrator; 01-07-2017 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Edification
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post #19 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:09 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by Wolf1974 View Post
Correct

It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to porn. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?

Sort of like looking at why someone depressed turns to alcohol without knowing why they are depressed in the first place.

Still as with porn, or alcohol or whatever some will have a problem with these things and others won't. Hopefully those with problems will get help


How does this read?


Quote:
Correct

It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to having affairs. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?

Sort of like looking at why someone depressed turns to alcohol without knowing why they are depressed in the first place.

Still as with having affairs, or alcohol or whatever some will have a problem with these things and others won't. Hopefully those with problems will get help


It's blame the victim time, huh?

Of course if it's a physical affair, that would never wash.

But if it's a virtual affair with porn----it's the spouse's fault.
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post #20 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:15 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
How does this read?






It's blame the victim time, huh?

Of course if it's a physical affair, that would never wash.

But if it's a virtual affair with porn----it's the spouse's fault.
It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.
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post #21 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.


If you suggest that people whose partners gorge on porn are in some way to blame; then you are stepping on toes. And you are starting an argument.

I know that it is not "allowed" to compare porn to having an affair. Well, f. that.

There are physical affairs, emotional affairs----and virtual affairs.

Virtual affairs where a significant amount of a person's sexual energy, focus and release is spent on porn. Virtual affairs that result in men being increasingly dissatisfied with their "real" partners.

And that is painful. Thanks for wishing me luck over it.


And I would NEVER minimize the pain that a person [such as yourself], whose partner physically [?] cheated on them must feel.

BUT, nor would I suggest on an internet forum, that, ya know;there must be something about your sexual personality that caused it to happen. 'Cause my sociology training is tingling about it.


Think of any-and-all insecurities that you have about your physical appearance and sexual prowess.

Imagine a partner who chooses to watch porn over coming to bed with you. Or watches porn within hours of having sex with you. Or TELLS you that she prefers watching guys with full heads of hair in her porn of preference.....and you're going bald. Or she likes really tall guys.......and you're on the short side of average.

But, she tells you, it's okay----even though those are the *really* sexy guys that are kind of amazing; you're okay Wolf, I mean you're a great guy and I love you. You're just not great in "that' kind of way. But don't worry, it doesn't mean anything. And besides, you'd better get used to it, because this is what women do.

I'm sure you'd be just fine with it, right?
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post #22 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
It's blame the victim time, huh?

Of course if it's a physical affair, that would never wash.

But if it's a virtual affair with porn----it's the spouse's fault.

It's interesting you bring up the equivalency of infidelity to porn use in a marriage. As a biochemist, I read a lot of scientific literature. Some of the most interesting things I've read relates to brain chemistry and porn.

Studies have shown that when someone is in a healthy sexual relationship , oxytocin is released into the brain. "Oxytocin is known to increase feelings of attachment, connection, and trust." It's naturally released during sex.

Watching porn triggers the release of oxytocin as well, effectively bonding the person to that experience. Over time, the bond becomes stronger and stronger literally bonding the watcher to a sexual experience coming from a computer screen, not from their partner.

Same thing happens when a person is cheating. The release of Oxy causes them to bind to their affair partner.

People who advocate divorce due to infidelity but in the same breath say that destroying a marriage because of a partner's porn use is selfish, don't understand this concept. They are both equally heart wrenching and painful to the person being pushed aside in preference for someone else, whether IRL or on a computer screen.




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post #23 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:48 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I have never had firsthand conversations with women about porn, so my experiences there are limited. In fact, TAM is my first ever communication with opposite-sex posters on this at all. If my wife ever looks through my browser history let there be no doubt she will be curious what prompted the links I have clicked on from here.

What I have learned (opinion only) about from many guy conversations in and around porn through the years is in the younger group,(under 40), it's about the hotness of the action watching it (hot bods and libido) and not much more as demonstrated by the shared conversations.

In the older group (over 40), it seems a much different animal and more about watching what is perceived as people actually still enjoying it (especially watching women seeming to enjoy it), and more so their age group as opposed to 20-somethings in action.

Porn is an more an emotional crutch than an animalistic drive it seems for some couples then in the later years, making up for lost connections and desires within lost growth in what is still a very vital and emotional area of shared physical pleasure and bond. Especially in an older group, we all want validation for our feelings and desires that demonstrates we are not wrong in said feelings when we feel rejected, attempting to create a lost connection though self-maintenance.

Of course, my assessments are not a one size fits all in the least, since nothing ever does.
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post #24 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:54 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
My husband [apparently] could stay erect for a very long time with his first sexual partner.


For various reasons, he only had 1 brief sexual encounter in the next 8 years.

During that time. Porn was his sexual partner. Frequent and rapid masturbation, including at work, to pornography.


Our ENTIRE relationship has been fraught with the problem [for me, not really a problem for him, I guess], of premature ejaculation.

It's been awful.
Premature Ejaculation(PE) in men is a more complex problem than most envision it to be. For males that suffer from Male Erectile Dysfunction (MED) for longer periods of time, the ischiocavernous muscles (ICM) go through real atrophy. This impacts the ability to maintain and achieve erection, while being a key component in ejaculation. ICM contractions are key for building penile pressure (ICP) beyond the systolic pressure, along with giving control to manage ejaculation. There is often a psychological and physiological component to PE. Any sympathetic nervous system (SNS) involvement can lead to immediate ejaculation.

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Yes, this is the nice enlightened version.

But when the rubber meets the road in Realitysville, men WANT to watch pornography.

The easy erections and quick orgasms are because they love what they are watching; and the physicality of the women doing it.

They haven't the slightest interest in "putting off the urge" lol.

If you do, congratulations. Believe me, I greatly admire you, and men like you.
The #1 factor is urge, desire or will to improve. I either work directly with the man or the woman to get this result. It is always critical, however, that the man's partner is included. As you noted, he may not see any reason to forgo the excitement of porn surfing. One clinical report identified a man suffering MED, only achieving erection by having multiple videos playing at the same time. It started with soft porn and escalated (necessarily) due to conditioning. Treating porn use includes many of the same components used in treating substance abuse. In fact, one of the popular models was adapted from a substance abuse model.
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post #25 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:56 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
If you suggest that people whose partners gorge on porn are in some way to blame; then you are stepping on toes. And you are starting an argument.

I suggested no such thing you are making up stuff completely out of left field now and probably deliberate

I know that it is not "allowed" to compare porn to having an affair. Well, f. that.

There are physical affairs, emotional affairs----and virtual affairs.

Virtual affairs where a significant amount of a person's sexual energy, focus and release is spent on porn. Virtual affairs that result in men being increasingly dissatisfied with their "real" partners.

And that is painful. Thanks for wishing me luck over it.
again never suggested that only stated it's not the same as a physical affair you don't need to agree but I am allowed to have my opinion and conflicting opinion as someone who expirenced it


And I would NEVER minimize the pain that a person [such as yourself], whose partner physically [?] cheated on them must feel.
and I would never minimize how someone else felt about their partner using porn. You made that assumption on your own...again

BUT, nor would I suggest on an internet forum, that, ya know;there must be something about your sexual personality that caused it to happen. 'Cause my sociology training is tingling about it.

again not what I said you are seeing what you want to see I wasn't talking about the study and it's conclusions but where it came from

Think of any-and-all insecurities that you have about your physical appearance and sexual prowess.

Imagine a partner who chooses to watch porn over coming to bed with you. Or watches porn within hours of having sex with you. Or TELLS you that she prefers watching guys with full heads of hair in her porn of preference.....and you're going bald. Or she likes really tall guys.......and you're on the short side of average.

But, she tells you, it's okay----even though those are the *really* sexy guys that are kind of amazing; you're okay Wolf, I mean you're a great guy and I love you. You're just not great in "that' kind of way. But don't worry, it doesn't mean anything. And besides, you'd better get used to it, because this is what women do.

I'm sure you'd be just fine with it, right?

Never said any of this was ok. Again all stuff you made up. Porn is a problem for some and not for others. When it effects sexuality with your partner it is a problem!


Actually you are making assumptions and trying to start arguments. I didn't asses blame to anyone you are drawing that correlation on that. Not taking the bait of someone telling me how I feel on a subject. Most of what you are saying I am implying here I never said and I have been on record many times here agreeing that some men and women do in fact have issues with porn..but not all do.

Only thing I don't agree with is that porn use equals a physical affair. If you think so great not everyone will agree with you though I certainly don't

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post #26 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:04 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to porn. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?
So, being completely honest, you were not implying in any way, shape or form; that when a partner starts using porn after a relationship starts, that it isn't somehow their SO's fault. You know, they somehow became less attractive or provided a "stale" sex life.
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post #27 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I step away for a few hours and now there are a bazillion porn threads on TAM
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post #28 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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In Gottman's 7 Principles book, he highlights a researcher that "debunked" the claim that couples should have no expectations in their relationship. I, however, attack the notion of primarily working off a framework inclusive of expectations, but rather standards, thus he and I agree in principle. There, we ensure our relationships fall along objectively healthy lines, not arbitrary expectations/demands. The worst thing one can do is sweep genuine issues under the rug. Porn offers easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well. Doing so would also greatly help the couple expanding their sexual script, leading to the necessary inclusion of sexual encounters that don't include penetration, something that research finds highly critical for couples to employ.

I'd say to women that they should not "expect" a man to persistently view pornography. He is not a lost cause and many rewards are conferred to those that push through this particular issue. The issue couples find themselves in now is that the male has been watching pornography since his teen years, well before he got married or met his romantic partner. His participation with internet pornography is likely not on the radar of bad/destructive behaviors, something that requires a lot of finesse in tackling. The solution is NOT narrowly focused, but rather encompasses a broad array of components. Often this requires working directly with the couple and each individual alone. There is probably a measurable degree of disconnection (a wedge) if the man is regularly viewing pornography. Connection is the #1 fuel for healthy relationships, which I would say is the dominant cause for success or failure.
I disagree the solution is not narrowly focused. Quitting porn is a big part of getting sexually healthy again.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #29 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:21 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I agree with the poster who mentioned the fantasy aspect of it. I think that's a big part of the difference between men and women.

If you compare the kinds of things most men and women use to get aroused, men prefer visual without a plot. A woman who is willing to do anything sexually and there is literally nothing more to the store.

What many people refer to as female porn - romance and erotica novels - yes, there's sex, but there is also love, romance, angst, and no matter how lousy it may be, a PLOT. Oftentimes a plot with a lot of painful elements. Two people coming together to "complete" each other and live happily ever after. Whereas completely visual porn is just people using each other. Which is a big part of what I find objectionable about it.

It's no surprise to me that the internet porn- and 50 Shades-raised generation has a hard time connecting and making a relationship work. The two sexes have been conditioned by their chosen form of media to have two entirely different sets of expectations. Neither of which is realistic.

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post #30 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:50 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.
I get your point and I personally think porn is not equivalent to a physical affair, even though I think porn use is bad for relationships and can be a form a infidelity.

There are various forms, including what we call financial infidelity.

But hierarchies of infidelities are subjective.....some think EA'so are every bit as bad as PA's, while others disagree.

Maybe since you've experienced a wife's PA you might think that if she'd only had an EA that would be better, I don't know.

The bar of what looks pretty good is influenced by what's happened to us.

But I don't think notmyrealname is wrong in that nobody would suggest it was partly the spouses fault if a PA or EA was involved (betrayed spouses in TAM are saints), but there does seem to be different rules for porn.


If hubby watches too much porn wife is often told to step it up in the bedroom.

Nobody tells a betrayed hb that if he was taking care of business his wife wouldn't have gone elsewhere.

At least not here in TAM. There just seems to be so much personal investment in porn that it's hard to have a rational discussion about it.

It can be every bit as damaging as other kinds of affairs.

Last edited by lifeistooshort; 01-07-2017 at 02:55 PM.
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