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post #1 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
jld
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"Til Porn Do Us Part"

Just saw this. Something to think about.

A new study titled "Til Porn Do Us Part" suggests that adding pornography to a marriage doubles the likelihood of divorce.

Divorce rates double when people start watching porn | Science | AAAS


"The new paper uses data from the 2006–2014 General Social Survey, a regular poll that asks thousands of Americans for their opinions on everything from national spending priorities to morality. Because the same people are polled several years in a row, researchers can track how attitudes, behaviors, and lifestyles change over time. To measure pornography use, the survey asked respondents—who also reported their relationship status—whether they had watched an X-rated movie in the past year. “There’s no perfect pornography question, but this one comes closest to the kind of question you ask that carries over time,” says study author and sociologist Samuel Perry of the University of Oklahoma (OU) in Norman. Out of 5698 respondents, 1681 said they had watched an X-rated movie and 373 reported viewing one for the first time during the survey period.

Analyzing the data, Perry and his OU colleague Cyrus Schleifer found that people who started watching porn were more likely to split with their partners during the course of the survey. For men, the chance of divorce went from 5% to 10%. For women, that number jumped from 6% to 18%."



One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #2 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:19 AM
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Cool Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

That's a rather sobering study, that seems to have a lot of substance to it!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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post #3 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by arbitrator View Post
That's a rather sobering study, that seems to have a lot of substance to it!
I'm certainly not a social scientist, arb, but I think so, too.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #4 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:35 AM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by jld View Post
Just saw this. Something to think about.
Thanks, JLD.

I've been doing a lot of work with Male Sexual Dysfunction (MSD) lately, so this post piqued my curiosity. Pornography has a vast amount of detrimental effects on males particularly, but this always poses problems for the relationship, in general. This is just another one of those things that can drive a wedge between partners, exacerbating or maintaining existing relational problems. We never look at one problem and derive our conclusions from it, but rather extend our vision to understand the underlying relational dynamics. For the relationship, in general, one may witness the man's romantic partner dealing with a lack of self-confidence, degraded personal image and lack of trust in the relationship. As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom. Any developed anxiety tends to lead to a turtle-like effect, wherein there may be a communication breakdown. Think of it this way, if a man feels very vulnerable to sexual dysfunctions, he may fail to have the confidence to include his romantic partner to work on his problem but also work on the relationship. Besides "conditioning", the greatest empirically evident result is the advent of what is called "spectatoring" or assuming a "spectator role". Identifying with pornography leads the man to assume hardened traditionally masculine beliefs, along with becoming more self-critical. When the critic/spectator role is invoked, the individual is no longer in the first-person POV, but rather spectates their own intimate experiences.

I've yet to be able to validate usage of pornography that would include support from empirical research. That said, there might be room for some type of usage along specific lines with many limitations and exceptions. Until that day possibly comes, it is better to abstain from viewing and using pornography. I do have to mention that many couples report the usage of pornography, claiming it to be beneficial. Again, there might be some narrow room for this, but we have to ensure that we avoid the well-understood pitfalls. For the common couple, pornography may simply exacerbate already existing relational dysfunction. When heightened discord presents itself, individuals often find themselves further polarized, rather than finding the necessary catalyst to improve their relationship fundamentals.

The last word I have on this is that a lot of recent research has exposed exploding rates of male sexual dysfunction. Researchers strongly suspect that easy access to internet pornography to be the culprit. We know that rates of ED rise with age, but we are actually witnessing an explosion of MSD in young males. The takeaway to all of this would be for one to understand that "porn" isn't the cause but a factor that exacerbates and maintains existing dysfunction (relationship and sexual performance). Without accompanying factors like porn usage, many dysfunctions never present themselves when they otherwise would.

"****, I lost my erection!" might be an isolated incident without dysfunctional beliefs and conditioning. With hardened and conditioned beliefs, an individual that loses his erection might instantly resort to self-judgment, comparing himself to the porn pros he so regularly watches:

"He is always hard on-demand."

His romantic partner is often unaware, leaving the partner taking it personally and possibily attacking him, a true snowball effect.
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post #5 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:40 AM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

It doesn't surprise me.


But, here's the thing. Do the people for whom porn is a factor in choosing to divorce, really think they will find someone who doesn't use it----even semi-regularly? I think that is almost impossible at this point.

Men whose wives prefer porn to them seems incomprehensible to me. I think if a man had a wife who got off to porn on her own, or who insisted they watch porn during sex; could easily find another woman who didn't like porn at all.

For women, I don't think it's possible to find a "clean" guy. I'm probably projecting my own experiences for sure.

It's more a matter of degrees. There's a lady on TAM now whose husband eventually got to using animal porn. So yeah, animal porn, child porn, rape porn----I don't want to have sex with someone who finds that stuff acceptable or arousing, it's repellent. That's truly divorce worthy.


As for the rest, if you are a woman and you want to be married and have a life companion and sex partner, perhaps someone to have kids with; it seems to me that you have to accept the fact that to some degree, he will always be drooling after women in porn.

The price he pays for that is that there will always be a place in me that is not accessible to him sexually. And that I don't have full respect for him as a sexual man.
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post #6 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
Thanks, JLD.

I've been doing a lot of work with Male Sexual Dysfunction (MSD) lately, so this post piqued my curiosity. Pornography has a vast amount of detrimental effects on males particularly, but this always poses problems for the relationship, in general. This is just another one of those things that can drive a wedge between partners, exacerbating or maintaining existing relational problems. We never look at one problem and derive our conclusions from it, but rather extend our vision to understand the underlying relational dynamics. For the relationship, in general, one may witness the man's romantic partner dealing with a lack of self-confidence, degraded personal image and lack of trust in the relationship. As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom. Any developed anxiety tends to lead to a turtle-like effect, wherein there may be a communication breakdown. Think of it this way, if a man feels very vulnerable to sexual dysfunctions, he may fail to have the confidence to include his romantic partner to work on his problem but also work on the relationship. Besides "conditioning", the greatest empirically evident result is the advent of what is called "spectatoring" or assuming a "spectator role". Identifying with pornography leads the man to assume hardened traditionally masculine beliefs, along with becoming more self-critical. When the critic/spectator role is invoked, the individual is no longer in the first-person POV, but rather spectates their own intimate experiences.

I've yet to be able to validate usage of pornography that would include support from empirical research. That said, there might be room for some type of usage along specific lines with many limitations and exceptions. Until that day possibly comes, it is better to abstain from viewing and using pornography. I do have to mention that many couples report the usage of pornography, claiming it to be beneficial. Again, there might be some narrow room for this, but we have to ensure that we avoid the well-understood pitfalls. For the common couple, pornography may simply exacerbate already existing relational dysfunction. When heightened discord presents itself, individuals often find themselves further polarized, rather than finding the necessary catalyst to improve their relationship fundamentals.

The last word I have on this is that a lot of recent research has exposed exploding rates of male sexual dysfunction. Researchers strongly suspect that easy access to internet pornography to be the culprit. We know that rates of ED rise with age, but we are actually witnessing an explosion of MSD in young males. The takeaway to all of this would be for one to understand that "porn" isn't the cause but a factor that exacerbates and maintains existing dysfunction (relationship and sexual performance). Without accompanying factors like porn usage, many dysfunctions never present themselves when they otherwise would.

"****, I lost my erection!" might be an isolated incident without dysfunctional beliefs and conditioning. With hardened and conditioned beliefs, an individual that loses his erection might instantly resort to self-judgment, comparing himself to the porn pros he so regularly watches:

"He is always hard on-demand."

His romantic partner is often unaware, leaving the partner taking it personally and possibily attacking him, a true snowball effect.
You're welcome, RT.

My daughter said that her male friends in college told her that they are unable to get hard without porn. Very sad that men in their early 20s are in that situation.

Luckily, there is a solution.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #7 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
It doesn't surprise me.


But, here's the thing. Do the people for whom porn is a factor in choosing to divorce, really think they will find someone who doesn't use it----even semi-regularly? I think that is almost impossible at this point.

Men whose wives prefer porn to them seems incomprehensible to me. I think if a man had a wife who got off to porn on her own, or who insisted they watch porn during sex; could easily find another woman who didn't like porn at all.

For women, I don't think it's possible to find a "clean" guy. I'm probably projecting my own experiences for sure.

It's more a matter of degrees. There's a lady on TAM now whose husband eventually got to using animal porn. So yeah, animal porn, child porn, rape porn----I don't want to have sex with someone who finds that stuff acceptable or arousing, it's repellent. That's truly divorce worthy.


As for the rest, if you are a woman and you want to be married and have a life companion and sex partner, perhaps someone to have kids with; it seems to me that you have to accept the fact that to some degree, he will always be drooling after women in porn.

The price he pays for that is that there will always be a place in me that is not accessible to him sexually. And that I don't have full respect for him as a sexual man.
There clearly are men who do not use it, as evidenced by the thread I started in Men's Clubhouse. Men, if you do *not* look at porn, why is that?

I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #8 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:13 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.


I hope that you are right and I am wrong. How I would love to be wrong about this.
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post #9 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:16 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....

Still it seems plausible. Some watchers will get addicted, directly causing relationship problems. Others will turn to porn rather than try to solve existing problems with their sex life.
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post #10 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:16 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by jld View Post
There clearly are men who do not use it, as evidenced by the thread I started in Men's Clubhouse. Men, if you do *not* look at porn, why is that?

I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.
In Gottman's 7 Principles book, he highlights a researcher that "debunked" the claim that couples should have no expectations in their relationship. I, however, attack the notion of primarily working off a framework inclusive of expectations, but rather standards, thus he and I agree in principle. There, we ensure our relationships fall along objectively healthy lines, not arbitrary expectations/demands. The worst thing one can do is sweep genuine issues under the rug. Porn offers easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well. Doing so would also greatly help the couple expanding their sexual script, leading to the necessary inclusion of sexual encounters that don't include penetration, something that research finds highly critical for couples to employ.

I'd say to women that they should not "expect" a man to persistently view pornography. He is not a lost cause and many rewards are conferred to those that push through this particular issue. The issue couples find themselves in now is that the male has been watching pornography since his teen years, well before he got married or met his romantic partner. His participation with internet pornography is likely not on the radar of bad/destructive behaviors, something that requires a lot of finesse in tackling. The solution is NOT narrowly focused, but rather encompasses a broad array of components. Often this requires working directly with the couple and each individual alone. There is probably a measurable degree of disconnection (a wedge) if the man is regularly viewing pornography. Connection is the #1 fuel for healthy relationships, which I would say is the dominant cause for success or failure.

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post #11 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:18 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom.

The last word I have on this is that a lot of recent research has exposed exploding rates of male sexual dysfunction. Researchers strongly suspect that easy access to internet pornography to be the culprit.

My husband [apparently] could stay erect for a very long time with his first sexual partner.


For various reasons, he only had 1 brief sexual encounter in the next 8 years.

During that time. Porn was his sexual partner. Frequent and rapid masturbation, including at work, to pornography.


Our ENTIRE relationship has been fraught with the problem [for me, not really a problem for him, I guess], of premature ejaculation.

It's been awful.
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post #12 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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I hope that you are right and I am wrong. How I would love to be wrong about this.
(((notmyrealname)))

You are such a dear. I am so sorry your husband does not make more efforts for you.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #13 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:22 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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Porn offers easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well.

Yes, this is the nice enlightened version.

But when the rubber meets the road in Realitysville, men WANT to watch pornography.

The easy erections and quick orgasms are because they love what they are watching; and the physicality of the women doing it.

They haven't the slightest interest in "putting off the urge" lol.

If you do, congratulations. Believe me, I greatly admire you, and men like you.
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post #14 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:32 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

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I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....
It really isn't. They often revolve around a survey, telling participants they are after a different goal. However, most of the data come from direct work with individuals and couples seeking treatment. Much of the data also comes from EEG and fMRI studies, of course with controls and neutral stimuli.

You are absolutely right, there will always be accompanying factors. When a treatment or approach is narrowly focused, relapse rates are absurdly high.
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post #15 of 104 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:33 PM
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Re: "Til Porn Do Us Part"

I think why porn is so popular for many men, is that it is a fantasy, and a means of escaping stresses, etc. Porn doesn't show two people fighting, and then making up. Doesn't show the day to day stuff that couples deal with. It just shows a very eager and willing woman to do just about anything for the guy she's having sex with. They should factor in that these women are being paid for to act out a part. lol It is a fantasy that the guy is really getting off on, and fantasies always pull us away from reality. Affairs are the same way. Many people have affairs because they are an escape from their troubled lives and marriages. But, many people find out that once they leave their spouse for their affair partner, the relationships often end quickly, because the affair has now become the new reality, and you just have a whole new set of problems with the new person.

So, porn isn't reality, no woman is going to perform sex on demand with her spouse, and no guy is either. But men who watch it on a regular basis, start wondering why their wives aren't as eager, and aren't willing to do all of the bedroom gymnastics seen in porn lol Because your wife is a real person, in your real life. The chick in the porn is just an actress getting paid to supply a fantasy. The relationship aspect is missing in porn, and so it's a really deceptive thing, IMO, and why so many people get sucked into making it a regular habit.

''Sometimes, you fall in love with the most unexpected person, at the most unexpected time.'' - Unknown
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