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Lesson to learn

6K views 71 replies 23 participants last post by  AVR1962 
#1 ·
There is a discussion on another thread about the timing of having sex for the first time. Some say early is best, others say waiting for a period of time is best. The lesson is that it really doesn't matter. Women or men that want to wait will (hopefully) meet someone who is OK with this time table. Women or men who jump in early will also hopefully meet some one who is OK with this as well. It is called finding compatibility. Both options present problems, and those that choose them do so for various reason (or what others might call issues). The bottom line is that regardless of the option, it is a choice that one side or the other made and it is ultimately up to you to decide if this acceptable to you or not. Sexual compatibility is but one aspect of overall compatibility. For some people sexual compatibility is not even a consideration, for others it is very important. It comes from whatever our experiences were and our expectations are. Waiting doesn't mean a woman is frigid or a man is timid. Jumping in does mean a woman is promiscuous or that the man is player. It is just who they are. The best policy regardless of which option works best for you is honesty. Both with yourself and others. Because either way you can (and usually will get burned at least a few times). So in the end you will always be able to say you did the best you could.
 
#2 ·
I've never liked the idea of intentionally waiting because it implies that (usually the woman) is *providing* sex to their partner, as opposed to enjoying sex with their partner. My feeling is that when you are dating, you should have sex whenever you both feel like it.

If your date only wants sex, then you might as well find out early rather than late. Intentionally waiting may eliminate some people who only want sex, but will also eliminate some high drive people who might be wonderful long term partners.
 
#3 ·
I agree. I feel the same. When I go out on a date with a woman, I am very open and honest. I am not into playing games and dancing around the issue. If she wants to continue to date, she has made the decision that she is fine with this. If she isn't fine with that, then she has lied. Not only to me but to herself, and that is on her, not me. OTOH if she decides I am too forward, or direct, that is her decision as well. Either way I am OK with it. I don't force myself on women, nor do I expect sex from them. But, I would rather know upfront than waste a lot of time, effort and money on a relationship with such a glaring incompatibility (when she wants to wait)
 
#6 · (Edited)
The fact that many women emotionally bond to a man they have sex with also presents an added issue. For obvious reasons, it doesn't serve a woman to emotionally bond with a man who doesn't return the feelings, or who isn't ready/certain he wants to commit to her.

Quality men will respect that this is an added factor for many women, and understand that her decision to hold off on sex with him until she's sure it's the right time for her and the relationship has more to do with self-protection and self-respect than playing games.

I'd advise any single woman to hold off on having sex with a guy until she's sure he's the right one for her going forward, especially if she's had low-quality relationships in the past. Once an emotional bond is formed, it can be very hard to stay discerning when red flags show up. I believe this is a major reason why a woman will continue dating a guy who is not right for them- even stay in a relationship with a married man for years.
 
#7 ·
When I dated I believed in getting to sex soon, on second dates. But I was definitely looking for long term relationships, and not playing games with girls. I was young and foolish, and didn't realize just how many problems girls faced with guys who did this to them.

Since then I think it is imperative that women do something to protect themselves from the guys who are just in it to make a score and move on. Those idiots ruin it for everyone. It makes me think of the statement, "See why we can't have nice things?"

If a guy can't handle a woman telling him she would really like to jump his bones right away because she is horny as hell but is going to wait to make sure he isn't some inconsiderate idiot player, then I figure he's an inconsiderate idiot of some sort anyway, and she is best rid of him.

I have not dated since the fall of 1973.
 
#8 ·
The Red Pill crowd has a name for this behavior ... i.e. women holding off sex ... they call it ASD, Anti **** Defense.

:lol::rofl::lol::rofl: ... idiots.

For this woman it has nothing to do with being ****ty or even self-respect. It is purely about self-interest/protection. So, if you "next" me because I don't have sex with you on the first/second date (or whatever manosphere is selling) I figure it's a WIN-WIN.
 
#10 ·
Aside from the childish name calling, I agree. It is a win-win. That was the point of my post. Because you see you get to choose. It doesn't make them wrong, it just means they aren't compatible with you. Instead of calling them idiots and casting aspersions, be glad you found out their intent before spinning your wheels. Because I have news for you, you not wanting to have sex right of away, will not have any affect on how somebody else feels. Just because you want to wait, doesn't mean the guy you are dating doesn't still want it now or vice versa.
 
#9 ·
I'm amazed how easy sex is to come by now with online dating. Really don't need to even be a player to get it......I had plenty of women offer sex after a beer or two on a first date.

For those who are looking for someone not just wanting sex my suggestion is to just slow things down. What i have learned is that sex = a committed relationship to me. So unless I want you as my gf we won't be having sex. This also comes with a discussion about expectation which I think many people miss. If you tell a player that if we have sex we are boyfriend and girlfriend most will think stage 5 clinger and run anyway lol

So I don't do timelines and won't stay around for those who do as I find them unrealistic. What I do instead is wait a few dates, varies depending on person, and if we click and I want to see if a relationship will work talk about being exclusive. If we aren't on the same page then maybe we will keep seeing each other or not but I will be continuing to date others same as they are. If we are on the same page profiles come down and we give it a go, sex happens soon after...

Not going to say my method is the best, probably wouldn't work for everyone, but it has helped me establish compatibility early on to save wasting each other's time.
 
#11 ·
I already contributed in the other thread, and clearly stated it was my opinion and experience coloring my response. However, I will add one more thing...

I believe that personally for me, I want to be emotionally connected to my partner in the strongest possible way. It is fundamentally important to me. This bond primarily happens (for me) through sex. I do not wish to intentionally weaken the "glue" of bonding to that (possibly correct for me) man by having sex prematurely, because I know that if he dumps me or turns out to not be the right man in the end I have now weakened the ability of that bond. I have now allowed a part of myself to be taken by an unworthy non-partner and am now "less than" for the next man I may meet. (Emphasizing that this specifically how SATYA feels.)

I also believe that many women have an issue bonding strongly with a man when they've had multiple partners, but how they live their lives is their choice. I have watched good women struggle to accept their sexual preferences (which are in line with mine) because sex can be so easy for men to get, it now becomes a competition to hope you can snag a man if you give him sex fast enough. Does that mean women don't enjoy sex early on? Of course not, they do. Sex is enjoyable. But I'll be dammed if that 5 seconds of orgasmic bliss harms me emotionally when I find out that man isn't in my life tomorrow.

So I say to any man here who doesn't like to wait, I have no issue with your preference. I'm still going to hold on to my ways because they work (have worked) for me. I've had a total of 4 partners in my life and I intend to stay at 4 until I die. My ex H, two bf's post-divorce, and Constable Odo. None of them told me that I moved to slow (~3 months + for all) and my relationship with each was (is) strong and stable and NOT lacking in passion. What lacked prior to Odo was: ability to tell me the truth, readiness to enter a committed relationship, and sobriety, respective to the first 3 men in my life.

I don't mind if others disagree with me, in the other thread I supported people's unique views on timing and what works for them. I agree with some others here that most men I've known in my life have preferred a woman who is sexually uninhibited, enthusiastic, and passionate... WITH THEM. I did nothing with my preference and choices but ensure that very outcome for my husband by respecting and protecting my ability to bond.

This will be my final contribution to this topic.
 
#12 ·
As a man, even when I was a young and horny man, I always took cues from the woman's behavior, signs and body language are easy enough to read. I never once pushed, pressured or deceived a woman into having sex with me. In my mind the best sex is when both of you want it and can enjoy it inhibition free. Sometimes the lust can overtake you the first date, and sometimes the connection can take months.

I just don't understand how any one can try and pin a time line on when is right. Our emotions don't work off a time clock or some charted out itinerary.
 
#17 ·
As a man, I have found this equally problematic.

I have been looking for a long term, monogamous, committed relationship. As someone else said above, I don't really want a woman that is willing to have sex immediately, because then I'm thinking, how many other men has she done this with? Yes, I guess I am judgemental, or at least selective. In any case, it isn't what I want.

So a few times I have dated women from online dating (*******), and what happens is, when I don't "make a move" in the first few dates, I get the "lets just be friends" speech. Even though there has been kissing etc, if I don't "close the deal", they assume something is wrong.

I am in the UK, it is possible the rules are different here, it is a different society.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Surely its best to be honest with them and say what you are wanting. If a man I was dating ended it because I wanted to wait for sex he wasn't worth having. To me, if a man respects me and my views on this he is worth having. If he pressures me he isn't worth bothering with. I know a young lady who ended a shortish relationship because he was pressuring her to have sex even though she had said she wasn't ready and wanted to wait. I had great respect for her.
 
#24 ·
As can be seen from the various points of view presented here. some people don't realize that what they want may not work for others. Rather than condemning them as immoral or idiots for not feeling the same way you do, why not just learn the lesson that everyone is different. When a man or a woman says they want to wait or let's get to it, they are doing the other side a huge favor. You don't have to waste your time trying to develop a "commitment" if all they want is sex and if all they want is sex, they don't have to waste their time by pursuing someone that isn't going to happen with due to their view on the matter.
Personally I would rather have a woman tell me she wants to wait upfront, then I know not to waste my time, because it is obvious we are not compatible. OTOH if she is open to having sex, I am willing to see where it goes. Sex is important to me, it is a primary decision point in my personal relationship algorithm. So rather than bypassing this and later finding out there is no sexual compatibility I have the discussion early and soon after take the plunge. But one thing I do not do is play holier than thou. It is cool if you want to wait, it just isn't for me.
 
#25 ·
In this case I don't think it's a holier than thou case.

I don't see eye to eye with most religious views. But I do see the wisdom of self protection.

I think it's pretty petty to stoop to saying someone who doesn't agree, in what I see as benign language, is saying holier than thou.
 
#38 ·
There is, I suppose, also a matter of signals, and communication, and failure to do both, particularly if you are not a very seasoned dater/poor at signal reading/'playing the game':

1 'OK, this was the 4th date, and no sex; she obviously have no interest in me beyond that of a platonic acquaintance; better call it quits now.

vs.

2 'OK: This was the 4th date, and no sex; she obviously has standards and high expectations, and that, is great; it will make it even better when it does happen because she is obviously interested in me beyond mere conversations.
 
#45 ·
I am one of those women who felt strongly to wait till I was married to go "all the way"... this didn't mean we didn't have our fun... this didn't mean we were lacking hormones, that either one of us didn't care about this aspect of a relationship, or I was frigid... QUITE THE CONTRARY.. we are both highly touchy feely... and it's one of the reasons we are so dang compatible.. it's just that we felt strongly about Marriage, what it represented.... it's something I promised myself, to weed out the users when I was young & innocent, when I dreamed of "the one". ...I guess I was lucky to find the perfect guy for me...it's something my husband deeply valued, how I felt on this... but true.... we were young.. we had time on our side...and still.. we had our FUN ...while we slowly built the foundation for what we share today... emotionally/ physically.. all of it..

I often feel for those who still care or try to hang on to the beautifulness of this.... in today's society...any sort of waiting is associated with being a cold fish or readily mocked, worthy of a dumping sooner over later.... why waste your time..... it's like some people can not comprehend that fusing our bodies with another human being is something deeply meaningful, it's intimacy at it's core, something very very special , set apart.. not to be shared with just anyone....one can have a high sex drive and still yearn for this aspect ..

It would be so much easier to separate love & sex and just boink everything we met... but in our hearts.. for some of us.. this is not OK.. it's not what we want for our lives.. we believe some things are worth waiting for.. when the time is right.. when we can physically express what is in our hearts too. It's so much more than just Pleasure...it's intimacy.... it's a giving of ourselves and the receiving is full of meaning as well... it's all encompassing..

Look... I am a romantic.. that's my perspective...It's never been "just sex" to me.
 
#46 · (Edited)
So beautifully put. :smile2:
The treatment of those who want to wait or have waited is often not good. Some will laugh at a man or woman who is still a virgin into their 20's or even 30's. People are accused or being gay, or that they have 'issues' or 'hang ups' about sex, or have no sex drive or whatever and that is SO wrong.
Many can't understand how we can wait if we are normal hot-blooded people, well we can and do and like you said, it's because sex for us is so important and precious, all connected with complete commitment. Yes we needed self-control and discipline, but that's important in all aspects of life and to me it shows character and strength to go against the flow and wait.

The fact that someone may dump another who refuses sex, just proves that they have very different values and aren't right for each other anyway. I know a young lady who ended 2 relationships for that reason. She was being pressured into sex far soon and thankfully she didn't give in and realized that if they didn't respect her values they weren't worth carrying on with.

I have nothing but respect for people who have those values, a moral man is a massive attraction to me. An immoral man is a complete turn off to me.
 
#53 ·
People on both sides of the issue make negative judgements about the other and then protest when they are themselves judged negatively. I see no right or wrong position, as long as the person is honest and upfront with the other about their plans. And that's the problem. So many are not.

For myself, I never dated a woman more than about a month before having sex. This is because if we had not had sex within that time period, I lost interest. I see sex as an integral part of any romantic relationship. For me, it's absolutely necessary to form the kind of bond that makes me want to escalate the relationship. I'm a passionate, emotional man. I want to be with someone who has the same qualities. Any woman who feels that physical attraction to me but can suppress it in order to vett me out for long term potential is not wrong, she is just very wrong for me.

I suppose I can understand a woman's concerns about safety and physical vulnerability, but it also seems to me that if she is willing to get into a car alone with me or come up to my apartment by herself, she has already decided that I am not a threat. I don't believe I have had sex with a woman who didn't spend some time alone with me (and vulnerable) since I was in college. That being said, I can understand such fears if the woman has been a victim of sexual crimes in the past. I know it is unrealistic, but I would hope that she would be honest about this too.

While there have been times that sex has been a very spiritual, significant event to me it is not always that way. Sometimes it is just something really enjoyable. Other times it is simply a need for a release. Someone who thinks that sex is a precious commodity that has to be saved for the "right time" would be wildly incompatible with me. Again, not a right or wrong but something that should be openly and honestly discussed.

There's a recurring theme of a woman feeling used if she has sex and the relationship fades shortly after. I suppose I can see this if the sole purpose of dating is to find a spouse, but that seems just as manipulative as the man who pretends to have long term interest just to get in her pants. I want to be with a woman who enjoys sex. Such a woman would not feel used after sex because sex would not be a chess piece she was using strategically. She would want and enjoy it as much as I do. She may be disappointed and hurt if the relationship fizzled, but she wouldn't be upset that she enjoyed a night of sex with a man she was attracted to.

If you want to avoid being hurt while dating, have the conversation early. Be upfront about what you want and don't want. If the other person appears to be reluctant or incapable of clearly communicating what they want, walk away. Poor communication is far more detrimental to a relationship than when you have sex anyway.
 
#60 ·
I don't mind waiting a while for sex, especially if I'm looking for a lasting relationship. A few months is okay - but any longer and I'd probably conclude we're simply not compatible in our sexuality or attitudes towards sex. Generally, the women have all initiated sex by the fourth date (or sooner), so I've never really had to test my willingness to wait. I'm also fine with casual sex, where the goal is primarily sex, having fun, or scratching that itch, with no relationship expected or implied. I also don't have a negative opinion of women who want the same - and if we happen to hit it off, they become relationship prospects, too.
 
#70 ·
I've said it before on this message board ..... but just in cast this is the only thread someone reads about "when is the first time optimal in a relationship" I'll say it again.

Men can use women for other things in addition to sex. Which means to me that just because the guy is avoiding sex with me does not mean that he thinks so highly of me and is just waiting to have that long term relationship with me ...... which just might "end in marriage." ..... as some people say.

So what can men use women for that might result in the withholding of sex

1. They could be looking for a beard. All the while very publicly and privately claiming that they are on the marriage track -- and therefore require exclusivity .... for all to see, the guy could be doing everything he can to avoid sex; to avoid certain sex acts as I encountered such as oral sex (even when he's getting his) or any kind of direct clitoral, labial, vaginal stimulation..........

imagine finding this stuff out on your wedding night.

2. the other is if you're dating someone who is multi dating you........ even if he does swear "she's just a friend........" After several weeks, valuable time that you could be seeing someone else, introducing him to your friends and possibly some other resources extinguished, you could be dumped and the guy could raise his open hands and sigh "well, at least I wasn't using you for sex." For those of you who are waiting until marriage / engagement / whatever, would that make you feel better?

At the same time, I sympathise with guys who are trying to figure out whether there is future with this woman or is he just a free meal ticket to her.

Both men and women need to show that there is some physical attraction by allowing open mouth kisses ... progressively more passionate..... and other forms of physical affection.

Nothing is fool proof but I think the above does help.
 
#71 ·
@NextTimeAround, very true. It works both ways. As for myself, I would rather know sooner than later. Not to say it is fool proof, or without risks. Whatever those are I think knowing beats not knowing any day of the week and the benefits that come from knowing far outweigh whatever the risks are. Especially in today's world.
 
#72 ·
I am 57, divorced almost 4 years after a 24 year marriage. Dating in my 50's has been "something" for sure!!!! I have had men of all ages ask me out. I engaged in a relationship 3 years ago where he told me he was not ready to be in a relationship yet so we agreed to be friends first. We really enjoyed each other's company and it was freeing not to have sex on the plate. 5 1/2 months into this he claimed he was ready and it was crazy combustible and I fell hard for this man. He had taken the time to get to know me but unfortunately it was over just as quickly and I was heart broke...not sure I was the only lady in the picture.

Several men and I have had the discussion of sex in relationships, or dating. Many have told me that sex comes with dating, it is part of getting to know one another. However, when the brain is flooded with hormones it is easy to overlook the things that we should see as warning signs. One thing I always make clear to a man that I start seeing is I need to get to know them. I have had some who wanted to be exclusive on the first date and I tell them I cannot be. I let them know that ultimately I am looking for a long term relationship and for me it takes spending time together so we can get to know one another. I don't want to rush into sex but most men want it at the 3-4 date. One man and I had 10 dates and was always all over me and I told him I just wanted to get to know him but after 10 dates I didn't hear from him again which was fine.

Personally I don't think there is any magical answers far as when it is appropriate to become involved sexually. I struggle more with the hormones that connect us once involved. I have found I am the one whose brain gets flooded longer and of the men I have had relationships with they come out of the hormonal flooding and continue life and I am still in la la land wondering what happened that they are not the same. This puts us on different levels and then I have to try to reign back. I have even tried to keep telling myself that we have to get past this hormone stage to see what is left on the other side, as I do find I get attached and for me my age attachment seems the last thing they want.
 
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