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I do not feel feminism has to do with holding a door open for a woman, giving her your seat, or being kind to her. I also don't feel that it has all that much to do with staying home and cooking/cleaning, or becoming a female executive. The whole picture of feminism is much, much larger and much, much more serious than that.
In my opinion, women who boast feminism and hate men aren't true feminists - they are sexists, and judge others on their gender. I believe in true equality, and even if a woman decides she would like to stay home and depend on her husband - that doesn't make her less than any other woman. However, women should still have the opportunities and recognition in our country that men have. We should still be able to hold jobs, be paid the same, be respected the same, etc. Sadly, I'm not sure this will ever happen because of the long-running sexism that has been, and is still in, our society - not to mention the extreme sexism in our world.
[QUOTE=FirstYearDown;547750]I cannot rightfully call myself a feminist. I will freely admit that I enjoyed having a man pay for me when we went out, while I played the field before I was married. I have always enjoyed doing domestic things for men that I cared about, because those men were lovingly making my life easier.
One of the things that I really dislike that has come from the feminist movement is the idea that every date should be dutch. IMHO, that’s nonsense. To me going dutch all the time is a code that says “I don’t really trust you so I’m not going to let you treat me. You might want something in return.”
I dated between my previous marriage and this one. I was clear to the guys I dated that I do not do dutch except in the rarest of occasions. Instead I believe that when we date we should seek to spoil each other. So if a man asks me out, he should pay. He has offered to treat me to something special that day/night. When I asked him out I should pay so that I can treat him. What I liked about this is that each person can spend according to what they can afford. Let’s say for example that the woman has far less income then the man. When she can do things she can afford like cook a romantic dinner, fix up a picnic.
While dating I never had a shortage of dates. The men seemed to really like the idea of being able to date in a more traditional sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstYearDown
I love to see men that promptly take heavy objects from women and also men who give up seats for us. It was harder to live independently and I am more than relieved that my husband is the main breadwinner: less headaches and worry for me! Equal rights and choice are great, but since I do not want the responsibilities of equality, I am not really a feminist.
I am completely behind the feminist idea of equality; same job, same experience/education, same pay. Equal laws for both men and women; etc. But in our personal lives the way men and women treat each other is very different.
My husband does the heavy lifting. He’s a lot stronger than I am.. as most men are stronger than most women. But if he needs alterations for new clothing I will do that because my mom taught me to sew. I’m very good at it. I see that as an even exchange.
Let’s face it. If things were such that I was with a man who is weaker than I, of course I would then lift the heavy objects and not expect him to do it.
The way you run your life, who is the bread winner, who is not does not determine if you are a feminist or not. You don’t have to be the bread winner of your household to be a feminist. To be a feminist you have to believe in equality between men and women and the right for both males and females who choose their own lifestyle. I’ll bet you do believe in those things.
What would you do if your husband could no longer support you do to something that is not his fault? Would you leave him? Would you sit there and live in poverty? Or would you find a way to support your family?
Lydia, what an awesome pair of websites. It's really easy for me to get caught up in feminist theory and forget about real life applications and NEEDS that we still need to continue to fight for. I think this also ties into Catherine's concerns about what modern
feminism stands for. Believe me, affordable daycare is on the list of feminism as well as affordable family planning, paternity leave and other "real women" concerns. The man hating is the fringe. Still.
I do think that theory is also worth examining as well though, exploring thoughts as to why there are so few female executives and why homemaking is both undervalued and expected. Shoot, I just love both. Posted via Mobile Device
I am currently attending college and working part time, so that I can bring in more income for myself and contribute. Even though my husband will always earn more than me, I still want to have a career of my own.
Andrea Dworkin and Valerie Solonas were stupid, militant hags who hated men. They remind me of KKK members; same fervent hate.
...The thing is, people do still bat an eye. Women still get called ball-busters, biotches and failures as women if they decide to pursure a career first. Our secretary of state got absolutely run all over for daring to be as ambitious as her husband. All relevant adjustments made, women still earn less than men. There are still huge Good Ol Boys clubs that without inclusion, you still hit a glass ceiling. Women are constantly valued first by looks then by acomplishments and so frustratingly frequently your accomplishments mean nothing if your looks aren't within the very narrow standard of beauty. Our first lady is crazy smart, talented, wellrounded AND
in shape as well as pretty and has constantly been reduced to "her fat ass" or "not model beauty."
Women still have issues to fight, feminists are still out here for a reason. Posted via Mobile Device
EDIT: What I'm really trying to say is that it's easy to say "people are people" if you are a person who is 100% validated as a person and not constantly, subtly and overtly reminded that you are an "other" person.
No. I dont buy it. I believe your concerns here revolve around inflated importance placed on the few blowhards that might pick on Hillarys ass - rather than the reality of Hillary as VP of the US which speaks for itself. And dont forget the female corporate execs of Dupont, Xerox... Sunoco.. Reynolds, ADM not only leading these companies but in industries 'traditionally' dominated by men.. so its not just Avon and Sarah Lee or even Pepsi and TJX tough yes... they leas those companies too. Yes - women make up a fraction of the fortune 500 - it doesnt happen overnight, but the barriers are down. I say the 'glass ceiling' for women is dead - or at least it is pretty permeable at this point. 64% of companies with budgets under $250,000 are led by women. Pay rates have slashed the disparity too.. only 10 years ago top female execs made half what their male counterparts did... by some accounts that is now an 18% difference.... again only for the very top... the difference is closer to 8% overall. The science says that most women now believe job opportunities equal mens: Women who leave the workplace: Opting out or overlooking discrimination?
Women are also outpacing men in education - earning more bachelors and advanced degrees. Matching men in 2010 and surpassing them in both categories in 2011. Social stigma attached to women being all they can be? I dont think so.
The necessity for feminism.. has all but evaporated. I think some may find it empowering to take an activist position, but lets not conflate some miscellaneous bozos screaming 'biatch', or a the extreme minority of idiots hitting on their woek peers or subordinates with the blanket notion that society is keeping women down. Of course, my arguments regarding diminishing sexism carries no weight since I am a middle aged white guy, but what I see with respect to 'gender inequality' is in no small measure a by product of the growing pains women and men are exhibiting as they strugle with the decisions of complicated lifestyles and trying to figure out the family / work balance.
"..constantly, subtly and overtly reminded that you are an "other" person..." Hm. I know lots of women. I would bet my bottom dollar that a quick survey would say the vast majority of them would not agree with that - and may go so far as to say its silly. Shrug.
Women are also outpacing men in education - earning more bachelors and advanced degrees. Matching men in 2010 and surpassing them in both categories in 2011. Social stigma attached to women being all they can be? I dont think so.
The necessity for feminism.. has all but evaporated. I think some may find it empowering to take an activist position, but lets not conflate some miscellaneous bozos screaming 'biatch', or a the extreme minority of idiots hitting on their woek peers or subordinates with the blanket notion that society is keeping women down. Of course, my arguments regarding diminishing sexism carries no weight since I am a middle aged white guy, but what I see with respect to 'gender inequality' is in no small measure a by product of the growing pains women and men are exhibiting as they strugle with the decisions of complicated lifestyles and trying to figure out the family / work balance.
In my workplace, single women, childless married women and divorced women with grown and out of the house children are all preferred for job advancement over men with children at home. No one complains about this, in fact we laugh about it because the criteria is so transparent and the result is so obvious.
Outside work will always create conflicting priorities for someone with commitments to anyone other than themselves. A person with no competing priorities will be more attractive to employers. As men take a larger role in their families and homes, women without these commitments become preferred. To the extent that I am a role model for my kids, I promise that they will learn from me that family comes before work.
As I watch less qualified women getting promoted over me, I don't feel oppressed or embittered. At 5:30 I leave to do things for my family while they stay and continue working. Everybody knows and accepts this. It is my choice and I wouldn't have it any other way. Whenever I think about the (mostly women) still in the office working, I don't envy them at all even though they live in bigger houses, drive nicer cars and get treated like they are more important (which they are).
No. I dont buy it. I believe your concerns here revolve around inflated importance placed on the few blowhards that might pick on Hillarys ass - rather than the reality of Hillary as VP of the US which speaks for itself. And dont forget the female corporate execs of Dupont, Xerox... Sunoco.. Reynolds, ADM not only leading these companies but in industries 'traditionally' dominated by men.. so its not just Avon and Sarah Lee or even Pepsi and TJX tough yes... they leas those companies too. Yes - women make up a fraction of the fortune 500 - it doesnt happen overnight, but the barriers are down. I say the 'glass ceiling' for women is dead - or at least it is pretty permeable at this point. 64% of companies with budgets under $250,000 are led by women. Pay rates have slashed the disparity too.. only 10 years ago top female execs made half what their male counterparts did... by some accounts that is now an 18% difference.... again only for the very top... the difference is closer to 8% overall. The science says that most women now believe job opportunities equal mens: Women who leave the workplace: Opting out or overlooking discrimination?
Women are also outpacing men in education - earning more bachelors and advanced degrees. Matching men in 2010 and surpassing them in both categories in 2011. Social stigma attached to women being all they can be? I dont think so.
The necessity for feminism.. has all but evaporated. I think some may find it empowering to take an activist position, but lets not conflate some miscellaneous bozos screaming 'biatch', or a the extreme minority of idiots hitting on their woek peers or subordinates with the blanket notion that society is keeping women down. Of course, my arguments regarding diminishing sexism carries no weight since I am a middle aged white guy, but what I see with respect to 'gender inequality' is in no small measure a by product of the growing pains women and men are exhibiting as they strugle with the decisions of complicated lifestyles and trying to figure out the family / work balance.
"..constantly, subtly and overtly reminded that you are an "other" person..." Hm. I know lots of women. I would bet my bottom dollar that a quick survey would say the vast majority of them would not agree with that - and may go so far as to say its silly. Shrug.
I'm on my mobile, and while it's technically "smart" it absolutely is terrible on posting links, so regarding the top portion I'll just say while you see this as evidence that feminism is dying, I see it as continued evidence that feminism is [i]working[\i] and still has work to do. If I get the chance I'll pull some links up that have interesting discussions on female CEOs, female leaders and why women are starting to outpace men in college and what some disappointing effects of that trend.
To the bottom part, "shrug" is about right. I like to listen to a variety of opinions and due to my location and past and current vocations the opinions of "middle aged white men" are pretty much the majority of opinions I hear in real life. Unfortunately I've found as a part of that majority it's incredibly easy to shrug off real experiences and real concerns of a minority position. I also want to add that I'm speaking as a member of a couple of "others" and I know I also can and have brushed off the concerns of other minority groups that i'm not a part of. I try to recognize that and look at my position in society accordingly.
Anecdote time! Just some (VERY FEW) ways that I get" reminded that yeah, I'm not regarded as just another human.
My husband is white, I'm black. My husband speaks fluent spanish, I'm pretty conversant and we feel that bilingualism is a net positive for our son so we are constantly talking to him in spanish and english. One day my husband says to me "Have you noticed that we get curious and sometimes hostile looks from people, but as soon as I speak spanish to you or our son, the looks dissolve into knowing and more acceptance?"
It's crazy. It's happened a few times since our son has been born. It's completely obvious too.
What made me get over being scared about calling myself a feminist was reading another thread on another mostly male forum called "tell me about being a woman." Just reading the shared experiences from so many women made me (and my husband!) realize that yeah, it's much better now and there are way more opportunities for women, we are still regarded and treated in a much different way. Shared experiences I personally have experienced:
I do not remember a time walking down the street where I haven't been catcalled, honked at or slowed down and gawked at. Several times absolute have stopped their cars and demanded I get inside and get a ride. This has happened since I was able to walk alone, while pregnant, no matter how I'm dressed and while with my small child.
I know a little about car mechanics. If I take my husband or my dad with me to do anything with MY car, I almost never get talked to directly unless they happen to point out that it's MY car they are talking about.
Unless my husband is directly with me and my son, I'm presumed a single mom and have gotten absolutely disgusted looks and comments toward me and my son.
Especially if he fusses at all (he's one) I absolutely get the vibes.
I can't count the times I've been called articulate/not like rest of (fill in the blank)/ good for a (blank).
I've never been raped, but I have been sexually assaulted. I absolutely a) did not recognize my assault as assault b) believed I had caused my assault c) believed that my assault was "no big deal" and "just something men did." All of the points were 100% false.
This is already long, but I could go on and on. This isn't even all the media influences, the re-enforcement by authority figures, whatever. This isn't even what has just happened to me as an individual but what I shared in common with other women. But the biggest slap in the face I and others repeatedly get is the "shrug" after sharing all of this and the discounting of yet another affected voice. Posted via Mobile Device
In my opinion, women who boast feminism and hate men aren't true feminists - they are sexists, and judge others on their gender. I believe in true equality, and even if a woman decides she would like to stay home and depend on her husband - that doesn't make her less than any other woman. However, women should still have the opportunities and recognition in our country that men have. We should still be able to hold jobs, be paid the same, be respected the same, etc. Sadly, I'm not sure this will ever happen because of the long-running sexism that has been, and is still in, our society - not to mention the extreme sexism in our world.
I can't imagine anyone not believing that all people should have the same rights and protections under the law. That was the original tenet of feminism. And there are many places where women still do not have these same basic rights, which is tragic.
What is also tragic, though, is the more radical sexist arm of feminism, and the resultant sexist backlash from that. And while we may be able to legislate more equal rights and protections, we cannot legislate people changing their attitudes and their prejudices. That starts within ourselves - one person at a time.
I myself do prefer the word 'humanist' defined as 'a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.'
...This is already long, but I could go on and on. This isn't even all the media influences, the re-enforcement by authority figures, whatever. This isn't even what has just happened to me as an individual but what I shared in common with other women. But the biggest slap in the face I and others repeatedly get is the "shrug" after sharing all of this and the discounting of yet another affected voice.
To be clear - the 'shrug' I inserted at the end of my comment was indicating non-surprise that females I know would not buy into the 'constantly, subtly and overtly reminded of being the 'other' person', and not shrugging off an 'yet another affected voice'.
I could critique each of your anecdotes, but really - its not going to advance anything here. I do get your points - and still believe thats social acceptance of women as equals in just about every facet of society in the US is both broadly and deeply accepted. I would even speculate that if I were to ask you if you felt that you could do anything you choose, you might agree with me. I understand (I beg, bear with me) the grindstone of oppression and its effects, I have been a student of it for years.
My characterization of feminism as anachronistic does in fact make light of unacceptible behaviors that do exist obviously, that was sloppy - but does accurately reflect the reality that those behaviors are now widely shunned. Cat calling? The 'Articulate' thing??!! Assault? As if THAT is the norm - It is not, sorry - and I do believe the bulk of sexual assault goes unreported. ( http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf ) And yes, Norway ranks higher than the US as do some other countries with respect to sexism, but the bulk of those differences come from things like generous maternity leave and socialized child care.
Easily a thread that will never end, I can see. I best get out soon while the gettin' is good... I think several people pointed that out early on...
I am certainly not a man-hater (I love men), and I'm not sure if I'm a feminist. Maybe in some ways, but not in others.
I appreciate a man holding the door open for me or paying for my lunch/dinner, but I certainly don't expect it. When I dated (over 10 years in adulthood between marriages), I paid as often as men paid. I didn't expect a man to treat me just because he was a man.
I have a higher education and make more than my husband. I don't hold this over his head, and really, it benefits us both. I don't feel like being a woman has kept me from excelling in my field and I'm paid the same or more than most men in the field.
I am very happy, though, that women in the past fought for equal rights. I believe both men and women are equal. It does aggravate me when I hear some men say that women should stay home and do domestic things while men should work. I have a good brain, and I like using it. It gives me pride and makes me feel good about myself to have a career. I don't forget about or sacrifice my family for that career, though, and I would certainly never be accused of being a workaholic.
I worry about those who want to limit women's reproductive rights, as this is very important to me and most women.
One thing I do get aggravated with women about, though, is those who think because they have young children, they should get "favors" at work. Hey, you get paid the same amount as me. I shouldn't have to do parts of your job because I don't have small children at home and you do. My life is important to me, too, and I don't like picking up other women's work and seeing them get out of work early all the time or come in late because they have children. I know how hard it can be to combine work and having young children - I did it too - but stop asking those of us without small children to pick up the slack. I can only imagine it aggravates men greatly, as it aggravates me!
Oh and one more thing, I don't live in an alimony state (we have very limited alimony). I don't agree with women getting tons of alimony and the man living in a small apartment while the woman lives it up on the man's salary. Ladies, we wanted equal rights. That means equal responsibilities. I think our family legal system is archaic and needs to be updated for changes in society, since women have equal access to jobs and near equal earning power.
If the movement would have been titled "equalist" instead of feminist nobody would have had a problem with it. Don't we all want to be viewed as equals?
The ones I consider a Feminist, don't want the door
opened for them. They can do it themselves.
They kind of wear it on their sleeve.
The others, smile and say thankyou and walk in.
Sexist!!!! I dont always open doors for people, but when I do, I do for men and women alike. Thats equality. I must be a feminist.... Although the idea of a walking dildo amuses me. Honestly, if I were a walking dildo you couldnt hold anything against me... Then again, with a name like SP, can you really take seriously anyways?
None of this is neither here nor there. The world's biggest ideological I am Woman Hear Me ROAR! is going to rape and pillage her ex if the laws are in her favor to do so. That's just human nature, common sense and what you pay lawyers to do. And from anecdotal experience of the couples I've known in life where the wife is the cheater and who files for divorce - that's an even BIGGER inducement to screw him out of something else because.....well that's their nature, isn't it?
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Re: Another Feminism Thread! 
Equal rights and choice are great, but since I do not want the responsibilities of equality, I am not really a feminist.
