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Is she a victim or am I an a**?

9K views 110 replies 27 participants last post by  Mr. Man 
#1 ·
My wife and I perpetually are in conflict about her feelings being hurt. It's endless and exhausting.

She feels like she gets hurt by something I say or do and tells me about it and is seeking validation. Instead of feeling validated, she feels like I am defensive. She doesn't feel heard.

I feel like my wife is a victim. She is hurt all the time, nearly daily at this point, and it feels controlling. It doesn't seem like she wants to be heard; it seems like she wants an admission of guilt, even if I have a different perspective.

We have been to MC for a long time and the marriage actually started getting better, but with this issue we are completely stuck. Our MC, btw, excels at keeping things fair and making both of us feel heard. She does not call people out.

When I read about people in similar situations the advice seems to be split depending on whose point of view the poster agrees with. Sometimes the advice is to draw a boundary and stick with it, which would have me telling my wife that I am not responsible for her emotions. On the other hand, the advice from the other point of view is to make sure that she feels heard and validate her no matter what I think about the facts.

What I try to do is listen and reflect, agree with whatever I feel I can agree with, and apologize if I think I did something wrong. I will often say something like sorry I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it that way. I'm not trying to defend, I'm trying to let her know that I didn't mean to hurt her.

My wife was raised by a single mom with major MH issues and her dad was absent apart from paying child support. Wife is by her own admission very controlling and type A and has a hard time asking for and accepting help. She has self-diagnosed with PTSD but refuses to see an IC because she says our marriage issues are too draining for her to have the emotional energy to work on herself.

I was raised by a couple that are still married 50+ years. Dad is a total nice guy and has no boundaries with my mom and no life outside of the marriage and often resents her. Our family was not very emotionally intelligent. I became aware of my own nice guy-ness a couple years ago and have worked hard to learn about caretaking and boundaries, etc. I've seen an IC for a couple years to work on these things, I read a ton of self -help books. I've grown in some places and not in others.

At this point, I just don't know what to do. Our marriage sucks. There are other issues besides this one, but this one is present all the time. I feel like I am looking over my shoulder to try not to do something that hurts her feelings. I sometimes put in the hard boundary and say, I can't help, and I sometimes say I'm sorry. I can't even tell who is accurate (I don't want to say right or wrong--it's all so subjective). I don't want to hurt her feelings but I also don't think I'm the terrible person she makes me out to be. I'm not sure how to bridge that gap.

We both work and share child care. My wife is a career woman and a good mom, although she's not the warmest mom, and I see her being the victim with our kids, too (at least that's how it looks to me). She is the one more likely to want to talk about problems and I am the one more eager to move on and make up. I am more reluctant to bring up problems and she has a harder time letting go.

Any advice about validation vs victim? About making her feel heard and having boundaries at the same time? IN a good marriage, how much responsibility does each person have to take care of their own emotions and how much do they expect the other person to take care of them?
 
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#2 ·
If your wife is "self diagnosed" with PTSD, marriage counseling won't work until she has individual therapy.

You can't run a 3 legged race is you can't run. Make sense? How does she expect marriage counseling to fix her marriage when her PTSD makes her emotionally fragile, perhaps too fragile to do or be anything other than needy? She can't really tend to your needs if she has her own stuff to deal with.

Until she gets therapy for her PTSD you can empathize and show care and concern. She triggers easily, and wants you to apologize; which means she wants you to own her emotional responses. She must own her emotions first.

From your post, it sounds as if she emotes way too much and you feel flooded...because you've been led to believe you are responsible for your wife's happiness. She's not happy, you feel defeated...nasty circle that doesn't end and now you cringe when she needs to emote.

Your best bet is to use reflective listening. Where you restate what she says inviting her to emote more. You aren't taking responsibility for her feelings, you are simply inviting her to emote, to get them out, to hear, to empathize. Not to fix, not to apologize (in the strictest sense of the word, see below for safer apologizing) and not to alter everything to accommodate and mental health issue that isn't even being treated!


"Honey meeting ran late and I didn't have time to stop at the store and pick up (something nonessential for that moment in time) and I have to get child from care, you're going to have to do it."

Now she's hurt, feels let down, marginalized, ....says whatever she usually says to indicate she's hurt.

"I'm sorry you feel hurt. You feel like I don't care about you?"

-"yes! I asked you to ....and you didn't! That means you don't care "

"You feel like if I don't do what you ask me to do it means I don't care?"

-"you never put me first, you always put work first!"

"You feel like I put work first and you want me to put you first?"


In this reflective listening, you aren't fixing, aren't promising, aren't apologizing...you are allowing her to emote.

Your wife needs individual therapy and I'm shocked the marriage counselor has already suggested this.

But you also need to ask yourself if you can live with this kind of emotional need. This may not work for you. This may not be something you can take on.
 
#3 ·
Can you give some examples of things she has told you that you hurt her feelings over? Is it always the same thing over and over, or does it run the gamut and could be anything at any time?
 
#5 ·
As far as examples go, it can be anything at any time. Recently we were leaving an appointment and she said that we could have done the appt at home. I said I thought they wanted us to come there to make sure it got done. Then she said 'You could say yes to me some time" and I said, "what are you talking about?" and said that she was hurt I didn't agree with her and say Yes when she made the comment about the appt. This was triggering to me because it was such an innocent comment and I am walking on eggshells, so I was silent for a little while before saying, "well, you're right, I could have said yes."

Then things were very tense and at home she told me how hurt she was that I couldn't say yes and that when she said something I couldn't just validate her and how I can't handle her emotions, etc. From there we moved into a pretty good fight.

She is hurt sometimes when I don't do something she expected, she is hurt when I don't say something nice and there was an opportunity to do so, she is hurt when I tease her, she has been hurt because I said I would do something by a certain date and three days before the date hadn't done it yet. She was hurt once because I didn't answer the phone for a couple hours. She was hurt when she thought that I was rude to a dinner guest. She gets hurt when our 9 yo son crashes into her and steps on her foot.

I know that my point of view may not be totally accurate, but to me it feels like she is constantly on the lookout for a way to show that other people are hurting her. It's not just me, although it is mostly me.

As far as my response goes, sometimes I do a great job, listen and make her feel heard and understood, and it can take a long long time. Sometimes I am defensive. Most of the time I do what I wrote before, I try to listen, reflect, and take responsibility for anything I think I am responsible for.
 
#8 ·
What does your marriage counselor and individual counselor say about these issues? Yes, some people are overly sensitive and no matter what you do, you will never please them. Sometimes it is you both being incompatible. Then again it could be your fault.
Remember, you can be an ass and she can still be playing the victim card.


You are reading books, going to individual counseling and seeing a marriage counselor. So, it sounds like you are owning and accepting your problems your wife needs to do the same.
 
#6 ·
I would call you a patient saint for trying, and asking for even more advice.
The ultimate situation is where you get to just be yourself, and she accepts that as you accept her.
If this is who she wants to be...and isn't interested in being something else, why aren't you doing the same?

"Nothing happens to you when you feel your feelings are hurt. "
Except ones sense of entitlement is offended.
Long term, my compassion would wane and I might end up asking for the piece of paper that says, in writing, that the world must cater to their wishes to hear only what they want, and they are entitled to put their feelings above the rest of society.
Yes, you are a saint for trying. Good luck.


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#7 ·
It sounds to me like you're blaming the rocky marriage on her upbringing, and you're convinced that your side of the street is clean because you had more stability growing up and your parents are still together.

That's not going to work.

If she's feeling continually hurt by you, there's something you're doing that is bothering her. It isn't up to you or anyone else to judge whether she should be feeling hurt by what you're doing- it simply bothers her so that's reason enough to figure out what it is and stop doing it.

I don't like to be around people who tease me in ways I don't like, or ignore my calls, or are rude to our guests. I've been around plenty of moms who become exasperated by their child accidentally crashing into them after repeated requests to "please watch where you are going."

Is your wife too sensitive? Possibly. But sensitive people are often highly aware of how others are affected by inconsiderate behavior and often go out of their own way to consider others' feelings. And calling someone "too sensitive" is often the first thing an insensitive person will say, rather than look at their own behavior.

I'd drop the MC- they don't sound very helpful. I don't think your wife needs IC, either. She sounds like she needs you to be more considerate of her feelings. Once you've started doing this, she will be able to give you the benefit of the doubt that even if you do hurt her feelings, you didn't mean to. For now, you need to do whatever you can to stop hurting her.

I'd save the $$$ you're currently spending on MC and buy a $10 book instead titled Lovebusters- you're committing many of the habits that destroy your wife's love for you.
 
#10 ·
MrMan, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., hyper-sensitivity, irrational anger, controlling actions, need for drama, lack of impulse control (e.g., binge spending), double standard, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and sulking.

I am walking on eggshells.
If your W is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong BPD symptoms), that is exactly how you should be feeling. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is titled, Stop Walking on Eggshells.

She feels like she gets hurt by something I say or do and tells me about it and is seeking validation.
The current theory is that BPDers and narcissists feel invalidated by their parents during childhood and thus spend the rest of their lives seeking validation of their feelings and perceptions. Whereas narcissists seek validation of their false self image of being "The Special One," BPDers seek validation of their false self image of being "The Victim."

This is why a BPDer will remain married to you only as long as you play the role of The Rescuer (as you did during courtship) or that of The Perpetrator (the source of every misfortune). Both of those roles serve to "validate" her false self identity of being The Victim.

I often think that my wife wants to feel hurt. Considering her family background, I think she feels most comfortable when she's a victim. [Your 12/13/14 post.]
Like I said, the powerful need to be frequently "validated" as The Victim is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. The primary reason that a BPDer keeps a death grip on that false self image is the BPDer's lack of a strong self identity. It is believed that, due to a trauma in early childhood and/or an inherited predisposition, a BPDer is unable to form a strong, integrated sense of self. The child therefore holds on desperately to the self image of being The Victim.

I have been a saver my whole life and she has been a spender. [10/29/14 post.]
The lack of impulse control (e.g., binge eating or spending or excessive drug use) is one of the nine defining symptoms for BPD.

My wife did not listen and say, "OK, you think it's too expensive, what about this?" and try to problem solve.[10/29/14 post.]
If she really does exhibit strong BPD traits, she is not interested in "problem solving" or finding workable compromises with you. Doing so means she gives up a valuable opportunity to "validate" -- yet once again -- her false self identity of being The Victim. This is why, when BPDers are at home with their spouses, they are far more interested in creating drama than finding solutions. Their self identity is at stake. Maintaining it requires frequent "validation" from their spouses.

When I read about people in similar situations the advice seems to be split.... Sometimes the advice is to draw a boundary and stick with it.... the other point of view is to make sure that she feels heard and validate her no matter what I think about the facts.
These two approaches are not mutually exclusive. You therefore should be doing both. Validating her feelings as being "real" and important to her does not mean you agree that those feelings accurately reflect reality. Nor does it mean that you are willing to sacrifice your own needs by declining to enforce your personal boundaries.

My wife was raised by a single mom with major MH issues and her dad was absent apart from paying child support.
A recent randomized study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 70% of the BPDers report they had been abused or abandoned by a parent in childhood. It seems that, in your W's case, she likely was emotionally abused by one disordered parent (her mother) and abandoned by the other (her father). Significantly, most abandoned/abused children do NOT develop BPD. But such trauma in early childhood GREATLY raises the child's risk of doing so.

I don't think there should be different rules for when I am right or when she is right. [Your 12/13/14 post.]
Well, if you're living with a BPDer, you may as well get used to it. BPDers typically have one set of standards for themselves and another set for everyone else. Moreover, the set applied to themselves will quickly change, depending on how they feel at that moment in time.

The main reason is that BPDers are too emotionally immature to intellectually challenge the validity of their own intense feelings. Instead, those feelings go unchallenged by their intellect and thus strongly distort and color their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

I've been starting to wonder if she has PTSD from her pretty awful childhood. [10/31/15 post.]
Having strong BPD traits does not rule out having PTSD too. On the contrary, the folks who develop lifetime BPD are so overly-sensitive and immature that they are at far greater risk of developing PTSD when experiencing a trauma in adolescence or adulthood. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that about 40% of BPDers develop PTSD at some point in their lives. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Significantly, both BPD and PTSD are believed to arise from trauma (combined, perhaps, with a genetic predisposition). Generally, the current theory is that, when trauma occurs at age 5 or later, it can produce the behavioral symptoms seen in PTSD. These traits include flashbacks, frightening thoughts, and bad dreams. When the trauma occurs before age 5, however, it generally is far more damaging because it can bring the child's emotional development to a screeching halt.

The child thus never has the opportunity in childhood to learn how to build a stable self identity, how to control her own emotions, how to do self soothing, how to trust others, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong conflicting feelings, and how to be "mindful" (i.e., how to remain focused on the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future). If your W is so immature that she lacks these basic emotional skills (ego defenses, actually), her behavioral symptoms will go far beyond those of PTSD.

My wife is a career woman.
Being a successful career woman does not rule out having strong BPD traits. The vast majority of BPDers are "high functioning," i.e., they usually get along fine with casual friends, clients, business associates, and total strangers.

None of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's two fears because there is no close relationship that can be abandoned -- and there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why BPDers typically can be considerate and friendly all day long with casual friends and strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. And this is why it is common for HF BPDers to be intelligent, highly skilled people who excel in difficult professions where they are teachers, social workers, actors, surgeons, or scientists.

She is constantly on the lookout for a way to show that other people are hurting her. It's not just me, although it is mostly me.
As I noted, the fears of high functioning BPDers usually are not triggered by "other people" but, rather, by loved ones. This is not to say, however, that a BPDer's perception of those other folks is not distorted. Due to her emotional immaturity, a BPDer cannot tolerate being consciously aware of strong conflicting feelings toward anyone. Hence, like a young child, a BPDer solves this problem by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love or hate), putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind.

The result is that a BPDer typically will categorize everyone close to her as white ("with me" or "all good") or black ("against me" or "all bad"). And she will recategorize someone, in just ten seconds, based solely on a minor comment or action. This immature way of perceiving other people at polar extremes is called "black-white thinking." It is a basic ego defense we all rely on heavily throughout childhood.

We've been married 13 years with a downward trend in the last five to the very negative place we are now. [11/8/15 post.]
MrMan, I've been following your posts for three years now. This statement, which you made 18 months ago, is the reason I've not mentioned BPD to you earlier. If it is accurate -- i.e., if you really did not see many BPD warning signs during the first years of your marriage -- then your wife CANNOT be a BPDer. That is, she cannot be exhibiting a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits.

As I noted earlier, a persistent BPD problem typically originates in early childhood and the strong symptoms usually start showing in the early teens. For most BPDers (i.e., those who are HF), the traits will completely disappear during courtship because infatuation holds the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. The strong BPD traits usually return, however, after about 4 to 6 months when the infatuation starts to fade.

Another reason I've not contacted you earlier is that you make no mention of your W having a strong fear of abandonment, which usually manifests itself in irrational jealousy (e.g., over you looking at another woman) or resentment of your choosing to spend time with friends or family members (which is misperceived as you choosing them over her). Significantly, having a great fear of abandonment is one of the key features of being at the upper end of the BPD spectrum.

I therefore ask whether you saw many instances of strong BPD behavior during the first 8 years of your marriage, starting soon after the wedding? I also ask whether you've seen many warning signs -- throughout your marriage -- that your W has a strong fear of abandonment?

At this point, I just don't know what to do. Our marriage sucks.
My advice, MrMan, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those red flags sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, MrMan.
 
#12 ·
It sounds like your wife is hypersensitive and has low self esteem. I am similar to your wife. This is who she is and probably will always be like this so for you to have a good marriage you have to learn how to deal with her sensitivity. And this doesn't mean being controlled.

It seem she needs to be validated, and lifted up by you. She probably doesn't feel respected by you. Just work on complimenting her.

When it comes her to sensitivity, just be aware what makes her upset and try your best not to do it. If my husband said... I'm sorry I hurt your feelings... that made me so mad because your not apologizing for what you did, and what you did hurt your wife's feelings.

A lot of people on here will disagree with me and diagnose her. But the reality is, even if she is diagnosed with something doesn't change anything. This is your wife and you need to learn how to get alone with her the best as possible.
 
#13 ·
Every opportunity you get to say 'yes', take it. It's a bonding experience.

You leave the appointment; wife makes statement; you go on defensive and explain. Alternative: you leave the appointment; wife makes statement; you agree and then state reason. Then you two get to chuckle or whine over how unnecessary it was.
 
#14 ·
I always hated when my husband defended his behavior after he "apologized". What I learned is that how we apologize we learn when we are young. When my husband was young, he came from super strict parents and when he was wrong he tried to get out of punishment by explaining himself, which worked for some reason. He grew up thinking admitting to being wrong meant that you as a person are wrong, he never saw his parents admit wrong.

I grew up with parents that never punished me unless I lied, or they found something out before I told them. Example... if I told my mom I tried smoking with a friend she didn't punish me because I was honest and forthright. If she found a cigarette in my bag then I would get in trouble. So I grew up with it's ok to be wrong, it's not a big deal. It's wrong to lie and hide things.

So when I apologize I always say what I did was wrong, no excuse. My husband defends and explains his behavior trying to minimize his wrongness. Or something
 
#16 ·
See, my take is different. Why wait until after the appointment to bring up "we could have done this from home"? She should have said something before you left. Your answer was appropriate. I'm not sure how basically saying "I thought we were supposed to come in" was wrong or how "yes, I'm sorry, you were right" becomes an appropriate response. This is why I asked what your counselors say about this dynamic in your marriage. Tone and contrition is very important. You can't bond with someone you resent. So, if you are constantly saying yes to appease her whims, you will resent her and continue to make the marriage worse. In all honesty, it sounds like you are there already. I am really curious what your two counselors say about both of your behaviors.
 
#19 ·
Code:
It sounds to me like you're blaming the rocky marriage on her upbringing, and you're convinced that your side of the street is clean because you had more stability growing up and your parents are still together.
I disagree. I think my post is very fair. If you read my post you will see that I said my parents, although they have had a long marriage, are not emotionally intelligent and my dad shows a lot of resentment towards my mother, and that I also have struggled with nice guy symptoms. Also, of course the background of both of us is important in understanding the dynamic.

Code:
What does your marriage counselor and individual counselor say about these issues? Yes, some people are overly sensitive and no matter what you do, you will never please them. Sometimes it is you both being incompatible. Then again it could be your fault. Remember, you can be an ass and she can still be playing the victim card.
Our MC excels at being a calm neutral person. She finds things to validate in both of our perspectives and she has helped us a lot to learn to talk calmly about our differences. She taught me to listen, reflect, and the agree with anything that I can, without taking responsibility for things I don't feel I am responsible for. She is an LFMW not a PhD and she does not take sides and call people out. My IC has helped me a lot to learn boundaries and try to stop caretaking.

Code:
Has she always been this way, or has this developed over time? Have you had anger or control issues in the past that could have made her thin skinned?
She has always been like this to some degree, but over time has become more and more focused on the feeling that I'm not validating her and can't cope with her emotions. I think it has become the issue that she feels I need to fix and then our marriage will improve. My wife did some things 7 years ago that made me angry and resentful. I didn't have the skills or awareness (or courage) to address my feelings or triggers back then. She also did not have the skills to talk about her feelings. We both became resentful. As far as control goes--I think she is controlling and she thinks I am controlling. Maybe more accurately, neither one of us feels like we have much control
 
#20 ·
Uptown--

There is a lot in your post and I'm not sure how to reply to all of it right now. But the brief version is that I don't think she's out of the norm for abandonment issues. She's never harassed me about looking at other women--although I don't ogle women in front of her--and I spend time with friends regularly. She does not necessarily like it when I am gone but she doesn't hector me about it or ask me a million questions about what I did and where I went. I think she of course has some abandonment triggers because of her background, and she will admit herself that it's hard for her to trust people and hard for her to ask and accept help. But it doesn't seem like it rises to the level I think you are describing.
 
#27 ·
I think the abandonment issue isn't the same as worrying about you with other women. It's a much deeper, core issue/need that permeates everything. Trust, as you say.

You say you've read a lot of self-help. Anything about BPD?

And have you brought up the sensitivity thing with your MC? That's the best place to address this - in a safe neutral space where you can air your concerns and fears that her 'need' is unsustainable to you.
 
#21 ·
The appt was at our school. I don't think the facts of it are important. It's her perception that I was saying , "you're wrong." I wasn't saying that, I was thinking out loud about why the school had asked us to come in when it could have been done at home. To me it was like, You're right, It could have been done at home, maybe this is why they didn't just have us do it at home.

When she s hurt, that time and all times, she does not want an apology. She thinks apologies are cheap. She wants me to tell her that her view is correct and to say that I did what she thinks I did. Sometimes she has a narrative about why she thinks I did something and she wants me to validate that. It is not enough to reflect and say I understand you feel that way. She wants me to say, You're right, I shouldn't have done that, I am pushing you away (or whatever her narrative is).

I am resistant to validating her, I have to own that. Because it seems like it fuels her lack of ownership and because I don't feel comfortable validating something I don't think is true. I'm always willing to listen and reflect, but I'm not always willing to tell her I agree with her version of things, and to me, that seems to be the sticking point. She ends up feeling like I don't take responsibility for what I did and I feel like she wants me to take ownership of things I didn't do/think.
 
#22 ·
Aha, I see a small key...
She wants you to tell her that her view is correct...
Do it.
Her view is always 100% correct. To HER. It can't possibly be wrong, because it's fabricated by her. It isn't even possible for you to fully see it the way she does. You are not her thoughts.
Get that part?
Her view of anything and everything is hers, and so is yours.
Only YOU know what your intentions are behind your actions and communication and really it's none of her business. And vice versa.
You can stop paying attention to what she says she thinks about you and pay attention to your own actions, and hers.
The need to analyze actions with words? Born out of confusion when the two don't line up.
Stop talking. Show her who you are.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#23 ·
Aha, I see a small key...
She wants you to tell her that her view is correct...
Do it.
Her view is always 100% correct. To HER. It can't possibly be wrong, because it's fabricated by her. It isn't even possible for you to fully see it the way she does. You are not her thoughts.
Get that part?
Her view of anything and everything is hers, and so is yours.
Only YOU know what your intentions are behind your actions and communication and really it's none of her business. And vice versa.
You can stop paying attention to what she says she thinks about you and pay attention to your own actions, and hers.
The need to analyze actions with words? Born out of confusion when the two don't line up.
Stop talking. Show her who you are.
I understand that her thoughts and feelings are hers and mine, mine. I get the idea that you can't argue with how another person feels or how they perceive the world. I mean, that you can't argue that the way they view the world is the way they view it. My question is how to allow her to have those feelings and validate them while simultaneously maintaining my perception of the world.

Let's take an exaggerated example. Let's say we have some friends for dinner and after they leave she tells me that she is hurt because I embarrassed her. I ask her, what did I do to embarrass you? She says, you stood on your chair and shouted that you hate our guests! In my mind, that never happened. I'm absolutely certain I never did that. She is certain that I did. So, how do you suggest I handle that? Are you saying I should tell her she's correct even though I am certain she is not?
 
#25 ·
It's simple. You do NOT need her validation to maintain your perception of the world. You don't have to do anything. At all. You just think whatever you want to think.

What's missing is productive feedback. Effective listening. Take time to think about it.
Everyone is an ass sometimes. If you dismiss everything people say as "that's your opinion " and aren't capable of empathy, you life is limited to your views and nothing else.
How?
"I hear what you are saying. I will give that some thought, and do what works best for me"
Ponder whether you were an ass.
Do what is best for you.
(Alter your behaviour accordingly or not).
Behaviour is actions. You can't solve those issues with your opinions.





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#26 ·
OK--so I think what you are saying is that when she tells me she's hurt, I should listen (like I do now) but take the extra step of asking questions so that i can think about it afterwards and decide if I agree with her. If I don't agree with her, I shouldn't tell her she's right. Also, I shouldn't expect her to validate my point of view if she disagrees w me. If I think about it and I think she's right, then I can tell her that and apologize.

I think this is good advice and for me, very difficult. Wife wants validation all the time, even when I disagree, and when I don't validate her she feels unloved and then I feel guilty. So I need to work on that part--not allowing my guilty feelings to get in the way. I've been reading up on the Karpman Drama Triangle and I see us in there all the time. She's the victim, I'm the persecutor, then I feel bad and become the rescuer, but I'm only rescuing to smooth things over so then I'm the victim and feel resentment. That was really helpful for me to look at.
 
#29 ·
This all seems to take way too much thinking and time. I feel like a lot of these instances can be resolved with you simply stating "I'm sorry you feel that way". The example you gave of the appointment she felt could have been done at home is a good instance for this. NOTHING about the statement she made to you about the appt needed any validation whatsoever, and your counter statement did not require her pity party retort about you never saying yes or agreeing. Once she said that, a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way" and nothing following it sums it up without you making an actual apology for doing nothing. You cannot be responsible for her butthurt all the time, she is a grown woman who should be able to process things for herself. I think she has some kind of deep seeded issue, and Uptown was likely on the right track. Honestly I dont know how you stick around her with this behavior.
 
#30 ·
When I was first married, and wasn't loving being married, I ended up crying a lot. I grew up knowing women cried and men soothed them. So I cried. Hoping that it would get him to do things MY way. He did soothe - for a year or two. And then he just flat out said that he wasn't going to keep bending over backwards every time I cried.

So I stopped. And found healthier ways to deal with the issues. (at least I tried; wasn't all that successful; but at least I stopped trying to manipulate him)

She is asking you to 'fix' her broken self esteem by constantly praising her, never questioning her, and always agreeing with her. That is unsustainable.

It's YOU who is going to have to change. "I'm sorry you feel that way" after she tells you that you are being mean. "I hear you but I don't agree" after she tells you that you must do something to appease her.

Stuff like that.
 
#31 ·
Turnera and others:

So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?

From what I've read one of the biggest complaints women have with men is not having their feelings validated. Men want to solve, men get defensive.

My wife doesn't just want to be heard, she wants to be told she's right. Tonight she said to me that she wants to know that I don't think what she is saying is "just my perspective" or "all in my head."

Saying I'm sorry you feel that way drives her crazy--she feels like it's just a refusal to take responsibility.
 
#32 ·
Turnera and others:

So, that works in your marriage? The wife says I'm hurt, I feel like you don't listen to me, don't care about me," and the husband says, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and the wife is satisfied?
No you use that phrase when she pulls out the bullcrap about stupid stuff, like the the appointment example. Use the phrase to shut it down before she gets on her guilt trip. Surely you can tell a whiny sh!t test from a real issue. If you have done something (valid) that you realize was hurtful, then of course you apologize.

My wife doesn't just want to be heard, she wants to be told she's right. Tonight she said to me that she wants to know that I don't think what she is saying is "just my perspective" or "all in my head."

Saying I'm sorry you feel that way drives her crazy--she feels like it's just a refusal to take responsibility.
Well she ISNT always right, no one is. So why should she get this special treatment? Does she LIKE being lied to? And good that this phrase drives her crazy, keep using it. Maybe it will help get it through her head that not every point she tries to make and every view she expresses is right, and she is not entitled for people to blindly agree with her.

I get exhausted just reading about what you deal with. I suggest you go back and read Uptown's post again, and maybe do some research, because what you are dealing with is not within the realm of normal.
 
#39 ·
jld--

You have this Deida quote in your post:

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax." -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

Although she has never said it like that, I think this is what she is asking for. She wants to have all her feelings and feel like I can handle it. She often says that it feels like her feelings overwhelm me and I can't cope with them. When I don't validate she feels that I can't handle her.
 
#40 ·
Yeah, that is not uncommon.

Some of us women need men stronger than we are in order to feel safe. Validation makes us feel heard and not powerless.

When people feel heard, they tend to calm down. They ideally will feel safe enough to consider the other person's position, too.

You may want to read the book in my signature. You seem like a candidate for Superior Man.
 
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#43 ·
jld--

10 and 14--the kids.

I'm interested in your thoughts on validation. What does that mean to you? Being heard as in reflective listening? Or being told that your your point of view is right and I agree with it? Is there a way for you to feel validated by your spouse when he disagrees with your perspective?
 
#47 ·
He often does Active Listening. That is helpful. But it has to be sincere and not mechanical.

We had an argument over Christmas. I can't remember what it was about, but I remember how it got resolved.

We were going back and forth, and I was fed up with trying to explain my point of view. I just did not even feel like discussing it anymore, and started zoning out.

Well, all of a sudden I heard him say something like, "And when I do this, it makes you feel like that. And I do that a lot, which must drive you crazy!"

I perked right up. It felt like such a breakthrough! And it was.

I felt like he was understanding me, really looking through my eyes. It made me feel close to him. His sincere efforts made me feel loved.

We were able to talk through the issue then, and see where each other was coming from. It was resolved, and I felt so good with him. Of course sex--really good, connective sex--naturally followed.

My husband is here on TAM. He is @Duguesclin. He often sees issues differently than most of the men here.

I think he is so smart, OP. So wise. And that inspires me so much, makes me trust him. I learn from him.

But I would not feel that way about him if he followed a lot of the common advice given here. We both think a lot of it is unhealthy. You seem to be picking up on that, too.

Does that answer your question?
 
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