General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
I agree, an emotional affair is equally bad and I'm not in one! But apparently, many tamers apply the following test:
1) reluctant to dissolve opposite sex friendship - must be EA, spouse is cheating.
2) end friendship - probably was an EA, even if its not play it safe.
@Bad News – Your 2 points leave out very relevant facts such as:
1) You and the OW are having conversations about marriage issues. These conversations are such that you speak cautiously when your wife is around so that your wife will not understand what you are saying. You and the OW are on the inside and your wife is on the outside.
2) The OW got drunk and grinded on you while dancing.
3) The OW touched your face to flirt with you. If a guy friend would not have done it then it was flirting and thus inappropriate. The OW knew that your wife was having issues with your relationship with the OW, so doing this was meant to taunt your wife.
4) The OW and you want to have lunch alone together even though you agreed with your wife not to do so. The OW knows that your wife does not approve yet still asks. Her “permission” remark was dismissive of your wife and you let the OW get away with it.
Many couples do not allow opposite sex friends at all. Those that do allow it often have special rules that acknowledge that there is a difference between same sex and opposite sex friends. Most EA happen where no such rules exist. Do you have such agreed upon rules? If not you should adopt some. One of the most basic rules that apply to all friends but especially to opposite sex friends is that the friend must be a friend of the marriage. The OW is not a friend of the marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News
its the notion that somehow this friend comes before her which I don't agree (that's not to say that I don't bear some responsibility). I do see that its causing 2sick pain, which is one reason why we went back to the MC after a year break.
It cause your wife pain and your answer is MC? You are putting your friendship over your wife’s feelings right there. Take away the grinding incident, the flirting and the inappropriate conversations about marriage issues and your wife would probably not be bothered by this friendship. But they happened and you cannot go back. It does not matter if you are really in an EA or not. If there is reason for a person to be suspicious of the friendship (and there are such reasons), you owe it to your wife to end the relationship; otherwise you are choosing the relationship over the feelings of your spouse.
I wish 2Sick could see what she is doing to herself.
She won't answer basic questions about whether Bad News will ever apologize and she's protecting him in other areas.
There's a part of this she is bringing on herself by whining about now boundaries and refusing to establish them herself.
I'm sorry, I didn't see any questions that may have asked. Is the question did he apologize for her behavior or his? He doesn't apologize for her behavior. He did about his only talking to them at the office. ( if it's neither please raise the question again so I can properly answer it)
And I did establish boundaries....that's the problem...they have been trampled on.
I am not yet willing to throw away my marriage. There is over 17 years of love between us. I have known this man since I was 13 and dated him on and off until we got married. I'm Sorry if I sound whiny but I am frustrated. I know this is quite bizarre because we are now side by side interacting about these posts but wanting to have the input from the posters (quasi counseling for us...quasi entertainment for yall)
I had a friend like that, it never got inappropriate (sexual), and was instrumental in me not putting my foot down when wife started chatting up an old friend. I felt guilty about telling her she couldn't while I never agreed to stop chatting with my friend when it bothered her.
It wasn't until I stopped out of respect to my wife (I finally realized why it bothered her), that I realized that even though it never got sexually inappropriate, we were clearly playing with fire. I shared things with her I didn't share with my wife. I told her about our marriage problems I never brought up to my wife. I looked forward to talking to her instead of my wife...
It's hard to be honest with yourself when you're enjoying something and don't have bad intentions. But I slap myself every day for basically crapping on my wife's feelings when she initially brought it up. Really the only thing that would have gotten to me is if she would have left, I think that would have shocked me into reality....
What made you see that you behavior was wrong? H doesn't see it yet. He still sees it as me trying to control him.
I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?
You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.
He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.
He is doing it because you let him do it.
In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sick
I'm sorry, I didn't see any questions that may have asked. Is the question did he apologize for her behavior or his? He doesn't apologize for her behavior. He did about his only talking to them at the office. ( if it's neither please raise the question again so I can properly answer it)
And I did establish boundaries....that's the problem...they have been trampled on.
I am not yet willing to throw away my marriage. There is over 17 years of love between us. I have known this man since I was 13 and dated him on and off until we got married. I'm Sorry if I sound whiny but I am frustrated. I know this is quite bizarre because we are now side by side interacting about these posts but wanting to have the input from the posters (quasi counseling for us...quasi entertainment for yall)
I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?
You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.
He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.
He is doing it because you let him do it.
In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.
Cake eating? 2sick asked that I stop having solo lunches and I did. 2sick asked that I only email her on email accounts that she has access to, and I did. I do tell her I don't like the boundaries but have been abiding by them.
Why do you label me emotionally broken, do we know each other?
But if it's only about this woman, than the issue isn't really trust. The issue is this woman.
She doesn't need MC. She needs a husband who does things to help her feel secure. I don't see that happening.
Allowing another woman to touch your face is inappropriate. It's an intimate action. I have male friends and the most they get from me is an elbow ribbing.
So there's no hugging upon greeting or departure with these male friends?
I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?
You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.
He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.
He is doing it because you let him do it.
In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.
Oh, well I thought I said in regards to his childhood that was his to answer. But in regards to him apologizing , yes he does...we BOTH do. Once things settle we sit back down and acknowledge where we THINK we were wrong. But obviously when we think that we aren't wrong there's no apology.
I will say that these posts have opened up a better dialog about clearer boundaries. He has realized that only communicating with his friends at his office was wrong, and has said he will try and have more communications openly and at home as well. We do still need to work on h telling his friend that she needs stop crossing the line.
What made you see that you behavior was wrong? H doesn't see it yet. He still sees it as me trying to control him.
My wife started texting/chatting with an old "friend". She did the same thing I did, she started sharing marital problems. She enjoyed talking to him more than me, she shared things with him she wouldn't tell me, etc. Only difference was they started sexting each other.
Before I knew my wife had an EA with the guy I already began to see why it hurt her when I talked to my friend. She wanted me to be the person I talked to, enjoyed talking to, shared things with. I just didn't get it until the tables were turned.
However, I definitely don't think that's how anyone should play it. Jealousy begetting jealousy is not a recipe for marital success. I think you need to establish clear boundaries, and if he violates them, enforce the consequences. Like I said, the only thing I can think of that would have shocked me into reality was her leaving. At that point I would have had to confront that I was choosing someone over my decision to stay with her. Also, my friend would have stopped talking to me (because she was a really good friend) if she knew it would have ended it.
In my case, walking out was the only thing that stopped my wife from going further with her EA. She was planning to fly out and have a weekend sex fest with the guy until I walked out, then she realized that what she was doing was threatening her entire life. However, up to the point of me walking out, I had no idea how far it had gone. She was still telling me they were "just friends."
Your husband and this woman have a connection, he's either lying to you about it or he's not being honest with himself. Don't let him set the boundary, you need to set it, and stick to the consequences. I don't want to say he's an A**hole, because like I said, I did the same thing and I definitely loved my wife, but he needs a nice kick in the brain for sure. And I can tell you that this forum is filled with stories like yours where the woman stayed and tolerated it and it ended poorly.
This will not get better on it's own. It will only get worse. Deal with it now.
I had a friend like that, it never got inappropriate (sexual), and was instrumental in me not putting my foot down when wife started chatting up an old friend. I felt guilty about telling her she couldn't while I never agreed to stop chatting with my friend when it bothered her.
It wasn't until I stopped out of respect to my wife (I finally realized why it bothered her), that I realized that even though it never got sexually inappropriate, we were clearly playing with fire. I shared things with her I didn't share with my wife. I told her about our marriage problems I never brought up to my wife. I looked forward to talking to her instead of my wife...
It's hard to be honest with yourself when you're enjoying something and don't have bad intentions. But I slap myself every day for basically crapping on my wife's feelings when she initially brought it up. Really the only thing that would have gotten to me is if she would have left, I think that would have shocked me into reality....
But it's awesome that you realized how what you were doing hurt your wife...I like your term "crapping on your wife's feelings" because that is exactly what is happening, and it hurts!! It makes you feel horrible when you know your husband prefers talking to another woman over talking to you....
So there's no hugging upon greeting or departure with these male friends?
Nope. Why would I? I'm not a huggy person anyway. Only special people get hugged...and none of them are male cept family and my hubs
Hubs' friends are huggy. It's awkward. I try to do the side hug thing...or stand away from them and just bend in to hug with a pat on the back. I hate that. But Hubs is right there anyway.
I don't hang out with my male friends alone. There's never a need to. I may go out with one of them with his gf, but that's maybe once a year as he lives in NY now with her.
But a brush on their cheek? Grinding? LOLLL No way.
If he only apologizes when he THINKS he's done something wrong, that means he's judgeing your feelings.
If he apologizes for hurting you? Then you have a committed partner.
From this thread, I don't think that you do.
Your mileage may vary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sick
Oh, well I thought I said in regards to his childhood that was his to answer. But in regards to him apologizing , yes he does...we BOTH do. Once things settle we sit back down and acknowledge where we THINK we were wrong. But obviously when we think that we aren't wrong there's no apology.
I will say that these posts have opened up a better dialog about clearer boundaries. He has realized that only communicating with his friends at his office was wrong, and has said he will try and have more communications openly and at home as well. We do still need to work on h telling his friend that she needs stop crossing the line.
Re: When do friends come before your spouse? 
I hate that. But Hubs is right there anyway.
