General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
We had an argument again and he's trying to convince me that people w/ faith are so stupid. .
IMO I think you should part ways. Obviously there is resentment from both sides. It will only get worse. Its probably best to be with someone who share your same views.
He is saying for you to raise the kids as Christians, but then turns around and says things like, people of Faith are stupid. Wow!
You both need to respect each others religious beliefs (or lack thereof) in order for your relationship to work. That means you can't expect him to pretend he's Christian and he can't belittle your beliefs.
I would find it difficult to pray and go to church if I didn't believe any of it and eventually, your daughter will see through his charade. Being dishonest to his daughter won't end well. She will probably end up resenting him for it.
You too need to figure out if and how you can live as a loving family with different beliefs. Although I think his behavior is terrible, I'm not sure that you've shown any respect for his beliefs either.
I want to show you how you & your husband may be a little "closer in belief" than you realize, you do not sound like a "Literal interpretation" Christain Fundamenatlist -- which is going to be very very helpful for your marital issue here. If you was, I'd probably advise divorce, since the fundamenalist mindset is IMPOSSIBLE to reason with, they see the world totally in an "us against them" mentality, so I give you kuddos for that .
First of all, you are an admitted "Liberal christian"....your husband is questioning things ....(I feel that is very healthy, good for him, more believers should be reading and questioning their faith...getting to know the ROOTS of where this stuff comes from)
.... .. You know the term "Christian" is thrown around so haphazardly here in the UNited States (if this is where you are from?) , it is near a Joke, near everyone calls themselves one without knowing a damn thing about "the Doctrines" that made it a RELIGION. I have studied alot of the roots of Christianity (could near write a book), and because of this , I can no longer call myself one. But I felt I was one for many many years -age 15 -into my late 30's. ..... admittably I always had questions that bothered me though. Eventually I got tired of not having the answers & sought them out, I don't like being clueless to what I am professing to believe.
This by no means I am not a good person, that I have lost my values, am immoral or would make a bad parent. I allow and encourage our children (we have 6 ) to hang with good people with good character, my kids DO go to Youth Group & our oldest is a Worship Leader/Youth Leader, I am very proud of him. We do not see everything the same but we highly respect each other & still learn from each other. This can be in marraige also. (FOr many yrs I was the Christian while my husband could have cared less, I drug him to Church 3 times a week- he would rather have slept I am sure)
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He told me that he had doubts believing in God over the yrs and now he's 100% convinced that there's no God
He likley means he Questions the GOD of the Bible being the TRUE God (claiming all others are wrong).... I have listened to some debates with those who call themselves Atheists (my favorite was Christopher Hitchens)... even they admit it would be foolish to claim all of this just randomly came to BE ...Some Force, some Power did all of this but the burden of proof is on the said Believer to prove THEIR particular GOD is the TRUE God.... and frankly Christians simply can not do it , prove it to them.....
..Truly it is ALL ON FAITH.... just like any other religion, there is a massive amount of TRUST in believing that all of the Disciples got all of those books written correctly (even though it was 50-60 yrs later after Jesus death), then all the those translations were also handed down correctly over hundered & hundreds of yrs...
Do you realize the FAITH in this alone ?
Even those who claim a evangelical "experience", one can not live & have faith on anothers "experience". I've had Mormons claim the same thing. Do I think Christians are the only ones to have an "authentic" experience.... I doubt it. To each, it seems real, genuine, they are right ....Others are wrong. Your husband is questioning these things.. I find it all very healthy personally. All believers should, or how strong is their faith -really??
I would near Bet if your husband looked up Deism , that he would totally identify with it's tenents... I now consider myself a DEIST, many people just like myself sit in the church pew but never speak out of our mouths what we REALLY believe because Christians will beat us to death with scriptures. Do I care if we think differently.... not really (just like your husband) .... but it can be a pain in the kisser when they judge me to hell & back for not agreeing with them. This is what you want to avoid in your marraige...judging each other for differences in belief.
See, when you are a fundamentalist, you will believe your husabnd is doomed to hell unless he believes as you, but you have already proven by your words, you are NOT that type of believer.... so what is all the fuss about -really?
Do you think people who view life like this (likely your very own husband) are bad people ? Don't allow what is not a big deal to destroy your marriage.
Your hopes, your dreams, your goals, your values, the morals you plan to teach your children...isn't this what it is all about ??
Look, your husband is allowing them to go to church , be raised this way, be thankful for this, but allow him to explore his own beliefs here, would you rather him lie to you, learn off of each other. . My husband has always had snide comments about some Priests, now we both laugh when we see preachers hounding for money, talking about "seed" & claiming healings.
Once we seen a Documentary on Benny Hinn, wow, how eye opening to what really goes on behind the scenes in some of these ministrys. It IS a joke.
Of course there are genuine GOOD hearted Christians -lots of them! and Catholics, and Mormons, Jewish, Buddist - all walks of faith, their FRUITS is what we need to look for, not their particular Creed..... Isn't it most important HOW someone lives -how they treat other people over how they believe??
Overtime people's views change and in this case, Your husband's views on religion changed. He is going to believe what he wants to believe, Same as you. You cant help it so the first thing you need to establish is that neither of you will try to convert the other because it will do nothing but create arguements. As for your children, If you raised them in a christian home then continue to do so (dont see why you would bother to change it) but when they get older then itd be best to explain religion to them and let them make their own opinions.
I came from a born again christian family and as a kid I went to church all the time. In the end, I made my own choices and they never questioned that.
I want to show you how you & your husband may be a little "closer in belief" than you realize, you do not sound like a "Literal interpretation" Christain Fundamenatlist -- which is going to be very very helpful for your marital issue here. If you was, I'd probably advise divorce, since the fundamenalist mindset is IMPOSSIBLE to reason with, they see the world totally in an "us against them" mentality, so I give you kuddos for that .
First of all, you are an admitted "Liberal christian"....your husband is questioning things ....(I feel that is very healthy, good for him, more believers should be reading and questioning their faith...getting to know the ROOTS of where this stuff comes from)
.... .. You know the term "Christian" is thrown around so haphazardly here in the UNited States (if this is where you are from?) , it is near a Joke, near everyone calls themselves one without knowing a damn thing about "the Doctrines" that made it a RELIGION. I have studied alot of the roots of Christianity (could near write a book), and because of this , I can no longer call myself one. But I felt I was one for many many years -age 15 -into my late 30's. ..... admittably I always had questions that bothered me though. Eventually I got tired of not having the answers & sought them out, I don't like being clueless to what I am professing to believe.
This by no means I am not a good person, that I have lost my values, am immoral or would make a bad parent. I allow and encourage our children (we have 6 ) to hang with good people with good character, my kids DO go to Youth Group & our oldest is a Worship Leader/Youth Leader, I am very proud of him. We do not see everything the same but we highly respect each other & still learn from each other. This can be in marraige also. (FOr many yrs I was the Christian while my husband could have cared less, I drug him to Church 3 times a week- he would rather have slept I am sure)
He likley means he Questions the GOD of the Bible being the TRUE God (claiming all others are wrong).... I have listened to some debates with those who call themselves Atheists (my favorite was Christopher Hitchens)... even they admit it would be foolish to claim all of this just randomly came to BE ...Some Force, some Power did all of this but the burden of proof is on the said Believer to prove THEIR particular GOD is the TRUE God.... and frankly Christians simply can not do it , prove it to them.....
..Truly it is ALL ON FAITH.... just like any other religion, there is a massive amount of TRUST in believing that all of the Disciples got all of those books written correctly (even though it was 50-60 yrs later after Jesus death), then all the those translations were also handed down correctly over hundered & hundreds of yrs...
Do you realize the FAITH in this alone ?
Even those who claim a evangelical "experience", one can not live & have faith on anothers "experience". I've had Mormons claim the same thing. Do I think Christians are the only ones to have an "authentic" experience.... I doubt it. To each, it seems real, genuine, they are right ....Others are wrong. Your husband is questioning these things.. I find it all very healthy personally. All believers should, or how strong is their faith -really??
I would near Bet if your husband looked up Deism , that he would totally identify with it's tenents... I now consider myself a DEIST, many people just like myself sit in the church pew but never speak out of our mouths what we REALLY believe because Christians will beat us to death with scriptures. Do I care if we think differently.... not really (just like your husband) .... but it can be a pain in the kisser when they judge me to hell & back for not agreeing with them. This is what you want to avoid in your marraige...judging each other for differences in belief.
See, when you are a fundamentalist, you will believe your husabnd is doomed to hell unless he believes as you, but you have already proven by your words, you are NOT that type of believer.... so what is all the fuss about -really?
Do you think people who view life like this (likely your very own husband) are bad people ? Don't allow what is not a big deal to destroy your marriage.
Your hopes, your dreams, your goals, your values, the morals you plan to teach your children...isn't this what it is all about ??
Look, your husband is allowing them to go to church , be raised this way, be thankful for this, but allow him to explore his own beliefs here, would you rather him lie to you, learn off of each other. . My husband has always had snide comments about some Priests, now we both laugh when we see preachers hounding for money, talking about "seed" & claiming healings.
Once we seen a Documentary on Benny Hinn, wow, how eye opening to what really goes on behind the scenes in some of these ministrys. It IS a joke.
Of course there are genuine GOOD hearted Christians -lots of them! and Catholics, and Mormons, Jewish, Buddist - all walks of faith, their FRUITS is what we need to look for, not their particular Creed..... Isn't it most important HOW someone lives -how they treat other people over how they believe??
Thank you so much about mentioning about Deism. I checked out the video and I read some things about it online and that's exactly who I am a Deist. That's why I mentioned that hubby didn't have to be a Christian, he could be a Budhist/Muslim/any religion as long as he believes in God. For me, they're all the same. But looks like I'm w/ an Atheist. Your advice is very helpful, thank you.
Differences in religious beliefs should not be a deal breaker in marriage. There is no reason to assume he lied about being a Christian. He may have just changed his mind.
There are stages of faith that people go through in life. Its not unusual for someone to move from a stage of unquestioning faith early in life, and then later reject their faith and become an atheist/agnostic. I think people turn to atheism or agnosticism when they can't reconcile all the contradictory messages in scripture or can't stomach the hierarchy inherent in many organized religious establishments. Some move beyond atheism to the realization that there is a transcendent truth/unity behind all religions, which the OP alluded to when she mentioned Buddhism. The final, most esoteric stage is of faith is the understanding that all is one, that everything is a part of God.
At least that is how it happened for me. I never would have come this place of understanding if I had never reached the questioning/atheistic stage. My point is that people need to move through their beliefs and find their own truth. He may come around.
It sounds to me like he was struggling with this for a while. Fighting about it and getting mad at him for exploring different ideas will not make him change his mind (and will likely push him even further towards atheism). He may have believed in God originally, but now it just doesn't make sense to him. Maybe he felt like something was missing before.
He has agreed to continue to have the kids raised Christian. I'm not sure what more he can do, other than being respectful when you two discuss it. I think that you two need to have a truce, where you agree not to try to change each others minds. Try instead to understand each others perspectives. If he doesn't believe any more, even he himself couldn't force his own mind to change.
Talk to the people at your church, focus on your own faith, and don't let the differences of belief tear your family apart.
Thank you so much about mentioning about Deism. I checked out the video and I read some things about it online and that's exactly who I am a Deist. That's why I mentioned that hubby didn't have to be a Christian, he could be a Budhist/Muslim/any religion as long as he believes in God. For me, they're all the same. But looks like I'm w/ an Atheist. Your advice is very helpful, thank you.
OK, he doesn't believe there is a God right now. I agree with SolidSnake when he said this...
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At least that is how it happened for me. I never would have come this place of understanding if I had never reached the questioning/atheistic stage. My point is that people need to move through their beliefs and find their own truth. He may come around
... This makes a ton of sense. He likely has seen too much to upset him from organized religion that the pendulum has slung completely the other way....it may be a phase.
I can tell you this, A true Deist is not all that worried or judgemental of an Atheist, I mean.... ....we simply live by the Golden Rule...
Putting your husbands beliefs aside (or non -belief in this case).... how does the man TREAT you, treat the kids? IS he loving? Do you believe Atheists are incapable of Love, how about humanists- many of them are likely atheists?
I have heard the argument made that some Atheists have more compassion than believers - cause they are more concerned about the here and now - making this world a better place (feeling this is their only home) whereas some christians got their head in the clouds thinking about being so pure so they can walk the streets of Gold and live ever after in some Mansion in the sky with Jesus coming back on a white horse to take them all out of here in a twinkling of an eye.
Besides his not believing a God is watching over him & his family... what other mundane earthly issues are you having in the marriage?
What books is his reading? And is he STILL Questioning a great deal , or is the matter settled to him??
Religion does not have a monopoly on morality, ethics or character. Many Atheists are very principled and charitable people. Is your husband a good man? Is he kind? Is he loving? Is he loyal? Does he work hard? Does he try to protect your family? I would suggest you judge him by his character in this world because these are the factors that will most affect how well your children will do in the future.
Sounds like control issues to me. Accept the guy for who he is and love him the way Christ commanded. Why don't you take some interest in what he's discovering in his life? Just maybe, he was searching Christianity to help him in his self discovery, but it didn't work, so he branched out into something else. It's not the end of the world here. If you truly are a godly woman, you would accept this as a test of your faith to help you grow in understanding. Arguing over religion isn't growth.
Just my thoughts.
He knows that I want our kids to grow up as Christians and he's ok w/ that. He's ok w/ going to church although we don't go frequently esp. lately as we've been very busy and sick. I asked him so many times before if he really believes in God and he always assured me that he does and that he's Christian. Recently, he's been reading this book, "How Life Began" and he's now convinced that everything inc. people started from bacteria and there's no such thing as "God". This made me so mad as it's very important for me to raise our kids believing in God and it doesn't matter if it's another religion ie. Buddhist as I believe that we're all worshiping the same God. He told me that he had doubts believing in God over the yrs and now he's 100% convinced that there's no God. He was even at first trying to convinced me that God is BS and that I'm such a fool,etc.. and this made me even more mad! I'm not a religious person and infact I consider myself a Liberal Christian. All I want is to raise our kids believing in God (faith) and now I'm worried that sooner or later everything I've taught them will go down the drain and turned into Atheist coz their dad convinced them that we all came from bacteria. I have no problem w/learning Science,etc where we all came from but faith is another story. We argued the whole night about this. He said that he'll let me raise our kids as Christians and he promise that it's gonna be a secret between us that he doesn't believe in God. But I'm worried about when they're old enough to know and one day hubby might tell the truth and I know him, he's gonna manipulate them that God is BS,etc... Sometimes he sounds like an Atheist that was why I kept asking him if he really believed in God. He thinks we've sorted this problem out and that he'll keep his promise but I told him that I'm not happy about this and even now it's still bothering me. Told him that it's gonna be a war between us if he ever broke his promise. Oh yeah, his dad is an Atheist and a Philosopher who's not even a good dad to him. I told him that why does he look up to him if he's dad was abusive to him and never around and even now, his dad lives nearby but he never contacts him back or treat him like his son. I don't know what to do about this. I am still mad. Any opinions? Thank you.
My advice to you: When you're alone, pray for him.
You cannot make another person's faith into anything. You can't make them believe ( or not ), you can't do anything about another person's beliefs.
Just keep your faith. I did not say "religion", I said faith. Faith is your inner belief in God and your connection to Him. Faith held is a transforming power. So, keep YOUR faith, and let it be the influence he needs. He needs to find meaning in his life, and he needs to believe, but you can't force it. You can only demonstrate faith's value, and it be sufficient to inspire him to seek it for himself.
"Of course there are genuine GOOD hearted Christians -lots of them! and Catholics, and Mormons, Jewish, Buddist - all walks of faith, their FRUITS is what we need to look for, not their particular Creed..... Isn't it most important HOW someone lives -how they treat other people over how they believe??"
My husband claimed to be Christian, until he filed for divorce, shortly after his affair with a married (also "Christian") woman was discovered. I heard the "submit" crap til I couldn't stand it, but he was never willing to go beyond that. Since he filed, I have been told that I am "demonic" and all sorts of stuff.
We were divorced previously, and it was then that I REALLY started reading the Bible and understanding a lot of things I previously didn't. I pretty much won't argue about religion, but I certainly wouldn't knowingly or willingly marry someone of a faith that doesn't mesh well with my own, particularly if the person is at all serious about it.
In one sense, it sounds like your husband is searching for something that will provide him some sort of control. Those books about "envisioning" stuff sound great and maybe they work for some people, but my own experience is that, in the normal course of events, work and preparation go into "making something of yourself". If envisioning helps that process, great ... but if you are quitting jobs based on imagery alone getting you another (better) one, sounds like there might be some serious problems with reality testing.
At least he is being honest about his changed beliefs. To me, that's easier to deal with than a phony. And as others have commented, raising children with the ability (and permission to) use critical thinking is not necessarily going to lead them away from faith. My daughters have been "allowed" to question or confront any issue, as long as they do so in a respectful way. I don't want them blindly accepting any "authority" because they are "told to".
If I had realized that most of ex's "faith" was a sham, I would certainly have dealt with him/talked with him differently than if I thought he was Christian. It might not have changed his ultimate choices (he and his friends have a "happiness gospel" where one person gets to be happy and the rest get to deal with the consequences of the selfish person's behavior), but it certainly would have spared my "speaking into the wind". A lot of people within the Bible have gone through doubt, despair and having their faith shaken. Others have questioned God or even "stood up to Him". Mostly, it seems that those instances have resulted in a strengthening of the person and their faith. Genuine faith and standing for what you say you believe, no matter what it is, is a lot more reassuring to me than "lip service faith". When I was going through hard times, particularly in marriage, I turned to people I thought of as "believers". It's very disheartening to turn to others for support and find there isn't any substance to your faith in them, or their faith in God.
I certainly don't have "the answer" but would just suggest that possibly, the bone of contention isn't the "real" problem, and finding and working to solve the real problem may alleviate some of what you are experiencing. If you have faith that God is real, trust your children (their ultimate outcome) to Him. You can pray blessings and such and still watch over their day to day development and be an example to them. I believe that science is as real as God, and utilizing the best of both can often be more powerful than counting on just one ...
"Of course there are genuine GOOD hearted Christians -lots of them! and Catholics, and Mormons, Jewish, Buddist - all walks of faith, their FRUITS is what we need to look for, not their particular Creed..... Isn't it most important HOW someone lives -how they treat other people over how they believe??"
My husband claimed to be Christian, until he filed for divorce, shortly after his affair with a married (also "Christian") woman was discovered. I heard the "submit" crap til I couldn't stand it, but he was never willing to go beyond that. Since he filed, I have been told that I am "demonic" and all sorts of stuff.
We were divorced previously, and it was then that I REALLY started reading the Bible and understanding a lot of things I previously didn't. I pretty much won't argue about religion, but I certainly wouldn't knowingly or willingly marry someone of a faith that doesn't mesh well with my own, particularly if the person is at all serious about it.
In one sense, it sounds like your husband is searching for something that will provide him some sort of control. Those books about "envisioning" stuff sound great and maybe they work for some people, but my own experience is that, in the normal course of events, work and preparation go into "making something of yourself". If envisioning helps that process, great ... but if you are quitting jobs based on imagery alone getting you another (better) one, sounds like there might be some serious problems with reality testing.
At least he is being honest about his changed beliefs. To me, that's easier to deal with than a phony. And as others have commented, raising children with the ability (and permission to) use critical thinking is not necessarily going to lead them away from faith. My daughters have been "allowed" to question or confront any issue, as long as they do so in a respectful way. I don't want them blindly accepting any "authority" because they are "told to".
If I had realized that most of ex's "faith" was a sham, I would certainly have dealt with him/talked with him differently than if I thought he was Christian. It might not have changed his ultimate choices (he and his friends have a "happiness gospel" where one person gets to be happy and the rest get to deal with the consequences of the selfish person's behavior), but it certainly would have spared my "speaking into the wind". A lot of people within the Bible have gone through doubt, despair and having their faith shaken. Others have questioned God or even "stood up to Him". Mostly, it seems that those instances have resulted in a strengthening of the person and their faith. Genuine faith and standing for what you say you believe, no matter what it is, is a lot more reassuring to me than "lip service faith". When I was going through hard times, particularly in marriage, I turned to people I thought of as "believers". It's very disheartening to turn to others for support and find there isn't any substance to your faith in them, or their faith in God.
I certainly don't have "the answer" but would just suggest that possibly, the bone of contention isn't the "real" problem, and finding and working to solve the real problem may alleviate some of what you are experiencing. If you have faith that God is real, trust your children (their ultimate outcome) to Him. You can pray blessings and such and still watch over their day to day development and be an example to them. I believe that science is as real as God, and utilizing the best of both can often be more powerful than counting on just one ...
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Re: Hubby lied about being Christian 
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