General Relationship DiscussionAlthough anyone can post anywhere on Talk About Marriage, this section is for people interested in general relationship and marriage advice.
"Imagine being a woman who believes in her heart her husband doesn't care about her, her feelings, really think she matters to him. Now have that husband do a 180 on top of that, become more harsh and pull away further. It would only reinforce her feelings and make her want to truly think about divorce."
So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is
fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...
Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.
This 180 list may help.
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For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.
2 things to think about if you do this:
1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.
2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.
Out of curiousity, you mention that she says she has been trying to change things in you for the past 4 years. And now you are doing them.
So what is she resentful about? Is she looking for an apology or just time to see the changes are sticking?
I'm not sure if the 180 applies if your spouse is resentful about something that has been going on for 4 years. If it does.... good luck on your journey.
So I'm confused on how to act. I read that you are to appear happy, content and confident but doesn't that look like you are happy with the situation?
I came home tonight and acted kind of indifferent and she took it as grumpy which just reinforced her complaint. I am confused.
okay, first tip. Quit judging and measuring your actions based on her response. YOU be YOU. If your going to be indifferent and independent, it doesn't matter if she likes it. That's the point. And if you are doing this, the end goal is that SHE DOES NOTICE, DOES NOT LIKE IT, and decides to change her behaviour in the hopes to change your behaviour.
Your not being mean, or disrespectful. Your just doing your own thing and being indifferent to her. SHE has moved away, SHE has asked for space, SHE is unsure, SHE want the seperation.
That's her choice. And she doesn't care that you don't like it.
So do your thing, and quit caring how she interprets it. You WANT her to start thinking and trying to figure you out.
Here behavior could be a natural progressoin... You give give give while she take take takes.... Now, she has to up the ante to get the same emotional high of watching herself dominate her man. Sorry to be harsh but many very giving men wind up divorced for this reason. To figure out how to act, what would you advise your best friend in this situation?
So what is she resentful about? Is she looking for an apology or just time to see the changes are sticking?
There are two specific things she listed. 1) She thinks I am too "snappy" with the kids (ages 3 and 6) and she thinks I "drink a little too much".
She has brought these two things up periodically but it is always in the context of an event where I snapped at the kids or lets say I fell a sleep during a show (supposedly because I drank too much).
The problem I have is I didn't see these things as the problem she saw them as and quite frankly, the only time she mentioned them was when she was crabby and looking for something to complain about (IMO).
I don't just "snap" at the kids and I never hit them. Sometimes they get defiant or won't listen or won't answer a direct question (hemming and hawing while looking for an answer) and I up the ante by raising my voice and being very direct. I understand they are just kids and it is never my first reaction to yell but sometimes you have to be firm, even with a six and three year old. Sometimes she appreciates it when I take contrrol of the situation and other times when she is in a bad mood it pisses her off. These are the times she is referring to but she doesn't see it that way.
As for the drinking, I have my own self imposed rules. Never before 7 and always in moderation. I work hard and it helps me relax. period. She drinks as well (once again in moderation). There are times when I will fall asleep during a show and she gets pissed about it. But it is not because I am drunk, it is because I am TIRED from work. It would especially piss her off when I would ask her what happened in the show that I missed because I fell asleep so I stopped asking a long time ago. She has no idea what that means anymore. She sleeps until 9:30 or 10 or until my daughter bugs her enough.
She also re-creates conversations for me that we supposedly had when I was "drunk" and accuses me of promises, or saying mean things that I don't recall. I frankly don't believe her that these events actually occur because I wasn't drunk, I simply fell asleep.
These are the two issues she points to. The only issues she points to. She says that they have been going on for four years and that has now cost me a portion of her feelings.
That conversation took place 1 1/2 months ago. I have forced myself to be patient with the kids at all times and have limited my drinking. I even offered to stop drinking completely but only if she was willing to outline what she planned to do to help the marriage. She has done nothing and does not have a plan. There is something elso going on here. An X factor that I don't know about and maybe she doesn't either.
I asked her if she was cheating on me because it was the only thing that made any sense. She said no and I went undercover and thoroughly investigate it and there is nothing. Because I was suspicious, she became suspicious and she went through two years of texts on my phone after I went to bed. She found nothing more than an accidental text I got from a "Jackie" two years ago that said "I love you" in it. I was obviously not the intended recipient so I thought nothing of it. She brought this up and I explained it to her but she still didn't believe it. I offered to call the number but she didn't want me to so I simply texted back and said "I just noticed I recieved this awhile back, who are you?" No response yet. I didn't mind her going through my phone necessarily but I was really curious if she would let me go through hers. So last night (this is what started everything) I asked her if she would let me and without hesitation she grabs the phone and tosses it to me and say "knock yourself out". She even offerred to show me how to navigate it. I'm at a loss as to what is going on in my marriage.
That is why I considered depression. I thought maybe she feels depressed and is looking for something to pin it on and this is all she could point to because otherwise, her life is rosy.
(Big breath).....anyways I think I really screwed up last night because we got into a conversation about it (which I strongly tried to resist doing) and I broke down. I sobbed like a pathetic b**ch and probably took three steps backwards on the manhood scale. She was sympathetic which isn't what I was looking for. I just lost control of my emotions and removed myself from the room to compose myself. I then returned and went to bed.
Today I woke up numb. I don't care anymore what happens. Leave, don't leave. I am powerless to do anything about it so I don't care.
Understand that I only see the side you have written, which is that she has talked to you for 4 years about things that bother you, and you say they are not a problem and don't agree with it. Thus, it's just not true.
She is talking, you are not listening.
You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for?
This is what resentment is all about. Refusal to consider what your partner needs, dismissing it, or demanding something in return.
I'm not saying roll over here and change religions.
Just try to put yourself in her shoes, consider her needs, and consider doing it just because you love her. Tell her that.
She needs to wipe the slate clean with you, tell each other you forgive, forget the past, focus on tomorrow and just being NICER to each other. Listen to her. Don't dismiss it.
I will say that a similar thing happened to me.
I made my needs \ requests very clear. Took a few tries. They were dismissed. Similar to your response. He doesn't see it as a problem, therefore there is no 'need'. Meaning it's not a need for HIM, and that was taken as pure refusal. You don't care about me.
Understand that I only see the side you have written, which is that she has talked to you for 4 years about things that bother you, and you say they are not a problem and don't agree with it. Thus, it's just not true.
She is talking, you are not listening.
You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for?
This is what resentment is all about. Refusal to consider what your partner needs, dismissing it, or demanding something in return.
I'm not saying roll over here and change religions.
Just try to put yourself in her shoes, consider her needs, and consider doing it just because you love her. Tell her that.
She needs to wipe the slate clean with you, tell each other you forgive, forget the past, focus on tomorrow and just being NICER to each other. Listen to her. Don't dismiss it.
I will say that a similar thing happened to me.
I made my needs \ requests very clear. Took a few tries. They were dismissed. Similar to your response. He doesn't see it as a problem, therefore there is no 'need'. Meaning it's not a need for HIM, and that was taken as pure refusal. You don't care about me.
We are getting divorced.
I agree with your post.
His wife did tell him, but because it's not a problem for him, nor important, he's dismissing it.
No one likes to be dismissed and I'm sure the wife has realized her feelings on those two issues are not important to her husband.
My husband did the same thing. I've told him for years I was unhappy and why. I found out that he's been dismissing my feelings for years and placating me. Now, I'm leaving when I'm able.
Dismissing someone's feeling, to me, it blatant disrespect
His wife did tell him, but because it's not a problem for him, nor important, he's dismissing it.
No one likes to be dismissed and I'm sure the wife has realized her feelings on those two issues are not important to her husband.
My husband did the same thing. I've told him for years I was unhappy and why. I found out that he's been dismissing my feelings for years and placating me. Now, I'm leaving when I'm able.
Dismissing someone's feeling, to me, it blatant disrespect
I WAS dismissing it but have stopped as soon as she said "look, I'm unhappy" unhappy about what? "unhappy about A and B". The way she said it this time really got me and I apologized for not listening in the past, let her know that I hear her loud and clear, and took immediate action and stopped the behaviors 1 1/2 months ago.
I still don't see those complaints of hers as problems except she does which makes them a problem. I get that now. Why am I still getting hit with "I'm not happy" 45 days later?
I WAS dismissing it but have stopped as soon as she said "look, I'm unhappy" unhappy about what? "unhappy about A and B". The way she said it this time really got me and I apologized for not listening in the past, let her know that I hear her loud and clear, and took immediate action and stopped the behaviors 1 1/2 months ago.
I still don't see those complaints of hers as problems except she does which makes them a problem. I get that now. Why am I still getting hit with "I'm not happy" 45 days later?
Because you can't undo/take away the hurt that she's been feeling for 4 years in 6 weeks. Sometimes I'm sorry isn't enough. Especially if the resentment is as long and deep as hers.
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You are only offering to change if she does x, y, z for the marriage.
Why are there conditions to you being the better person\husband \father she is asking for?
The only condition I said went something like this:
"Babe, I have completely turned around my interactions with the kids and cut back on the drinking a month ago but you are still unhappy. I've been doing things to make our marriage stronger but you don't seem willing to do anything. Heck I'll quite drinking entirely if it bothers you but I need you to work on this from your end as well"
My conversation with her was close to that verbatim. That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing. That is why the 180 suggestion keeps coming up.
Time is what it takes. And consistency. And even after that sometimes the resentment is still there simmering under the surface. There are no guarantees that what you do will turn it all around. The offended person has to make the decison every day to stay and work on getting past the hurt.
The only condition I said went something like this:
"Babe, I have completely turned around my interactions with the kids and cut back on the drinking a month ago but you are still unhappy. I've been doing things to make our marriage stronger but you don't seem willing to do anything. Heck I'll quite drinking entirely if it bothers you but I need you to work on this from your end as well"
My conversation with her was close to that verbatim. That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing. That is why the 180 suggestion keeps coming up.
I'm no expert of course but I've followed your thread. I think maybe you need to give it more time. If she was feeling like you were being snappish and maybe drinking a little too much, then you can't suddenly turn that feeling around in her by going at her strongly with your expectations over the course of 6 weeks. It's both too little time for her to see you've changed, and too much time for her to learn to accept that you expect her to change as well. In other words, she just sees you going at her for weeks and this just reinforces her negative perception of you.
That being said, my advice has only to do with her feelings and your expectations of her reaction to you. I don't think that she's right to expect you to deal with an in-home separation or whatever you're attempting. No one could handle that and you shouldn't either. But whatever choice you make, it's going to take more time and patience for her to see your changes and understand you expect her to make some as well. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Trust. Time. Forgiveness. How does one help your partner get over resentment? Advice?
You can't. They have to really want to first. Unless they want to, nothing you do is going to be worth a damn. You can support them once they make the decision, but some people would rather be "right" than happy.
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Re: When the Pain Turns to Anger 
