FirstYearDown

Catherine, what do you mean by "quitter fair"? I have never heard that expression unless it is a typo.

I don't think that Shyguy is hypersensitive. He made some very valid points about your penchant for imagining sexist undertones.

I can vouch for your statement about men being inappropriate at work. I have had to threaten to go to HR or angrily rebuff nasty requests.

Catherine602

I too have don't see special treatment of women in my profession. We have standardized test and skills assessment and you either have it or you don't. The stakes are too high to allow for any other measure of competence.

I do see special treatment of people who know someone who knows someone. The plumb positions can go to the politically connected. Have you ever observed that? Let me ask does it upset you as much as special treatment of women?

There have been numerous comparison studies on success in the work place. Taller men, good looks, pretty, weight appropriate people are more successful than those without those attributes. They are either more talented or just nice to look at.

As far as the on the prowl men e, you may not notice because you are not a woman and you are too busy doing your job. These guys probably stay out of your way, they are there. . I don't think I am delusional at lest I hope not.
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shy_guy

Point taken. If you had to deal with that, then you were right in doing so. Maybe I need to consider that I have a rather specialized workplace.

Catherine602

First it's this stupid iPad and the fact that I can't spell worth a d@mn and even when I poof it stupid words get by. I have mild dyslexia that my excuse. I meant that Shy is quite fair in his post.

I think he is bothered by the set asides I imagine it is difficult for a manager I don't really think he is hypersensitive. I am though, I'll admit that. I may be reading too many post that are negative towards women and may see it everywhere I look. There is a thread entitled I see cheating everywhere. Time to stop reading !

I can't judge because the structure in my profession is so totally different. The focus is on health care and service.
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shy_guy

This is a big area of debate in our company. For the most part, standardized tests are not considered a good measure for what we do because we don't really want the people who know right answers. We want people who think their way through complex situations, put together complex solutions, research areas that have not been developed before and such like. Quite literally, I had 10 hours of interviews to get the position I currently have. My previous position was with the same company, but not in R&D (where I currently work). I had 6 hours of interviews to get that job. I didn't get the first job I interviewed with this company because I was totally blown away by the interview process.

Standardized tests would be hard to skew I would think. But it's not appropriate for all disciplines.

EDIT: I probably should add, I've been upset listening to a couple of female colleagues after giving technical interviews when they said something that started like "I really wanted to hire her, I mean it would be another woman in the group ... " It doesn't matter what follows that, it betrays an attitude in them that I don't agree with. I let them know I didn't agree with it, too. I want to make considerations as if it was my son vs. my daughter and be that fair about it.

Short answer: Yes, for positions that should be based on competence, it would upset me just as much.

They haven't looked at where I work I don't think. We're a pretty homely bunch .

I'm sure there are men like that. I would think I would notice them, or hear from them when they had their guard down. I don't see it so much where I work now ... I can probably think of examples if I think back to earlier years in the work force. I'll concede this point, but also tell you that I would find a woman who expects this from all men to be someone I would have difficulty working with. I would hope I could be considered as an individual instead of just as a "man" and all the stereotypes that person may bring to that professional relationship.

Catherine602

That's why skills are assessed to simulate complex situations. Test measure baseline first order knowledge. There are ways of assessing higher order applied skills. That is easy to do in my profession. Each person is required to perform complex task on the job so to speak and a standard rubric is used by two examiners to grade the testee. There are board exams that require a demonstration of a complex and relevant skills.

As I said the stakes are high and the margin of error is narrow.
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Catherine602

I had 2 day long interviews to get every position I have ever held. I have had to meet with students as a group, all of my potential colleagues in my division, the administrators and a hiring committee. In addition, dinner in the evening a social interview of sorts.

The decision is made by the committee which, is composed of at lest 10 individual appointed by the administration with only one member of the department in question.
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Catherine602

Hmm sounds like the women that work in your place are pretty insecure, incompetent and under-qualified from the bulk of what you describe? Is this a successful company. Must be difficult for the men carrying all of the load for these women plus their own load. Do you have problems with retention of men?

It'd be something if all the men left to get better position and you were stuck with a department full of entitled, incompetent dumb women.

The men sound like saints, competent, never say stupid things like women? Great.
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shy_guy

I think the difference is that you are dealing primarily with known situations and trying to minimize risk. In an R&D environment, we are working specifically in areas that nobody has ever done before (or so we hope). Failure is expected in many project, lessons learned, product improvement, and continuing on to the next one. In interviewing for positions like this, my thought is that open ended questions on scenarios and allowing that person to interactively build a solution to fit the scenario is more useful. Margin of error is not considered - errors and "fail fast" are expected.

In our interviews, the whole point is in seeing how the person thinks, and the individualism of thought is what contributes to the R&D team. Very different from what I would expect in a medical situation.

shy_guy

OH HOW I WISH I could tell you what company I work for right now. Let me put it this way, there is nobody on this site who would not recognize the name, and most of you are using what we develop almost every day.

Careful about generalizing again. We have some very sharp women. Remember I said that at the beginning. Please remember those things when you are drawing conclusions about what I'm saying, too. A few get into some positions who are not quite up to the standards, but make no mistake: we have some very sharp women.

I'm not quite sure what to do with this ... I'm not quite sure the voice intonation that was written with.

Catherine602

Apple? Microsoft? Communications? AT&T, Verizon,

Not generalizing - I use a lot of sarcasm. Not very good I am trying to improve. Good natured Humor would be far more attractive and not as distancing.
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ComicBookLady

I think it's important a man & woman are of equal partners in a relationship, however I feel both genders still have their own specific attributes they lend to relationships. For men, I believe they lend support, confidence, strength and dependability, things that are generally sought after by women. I believe men have to put less emphasis on who has the power in the relationship, and work on how to be the best fit for each other, how to correctly support each other in your own unique ways so your family can flourish and be happy.

And no, personally if my husband was the type to put his foot down on things in our life instead of working with me on them, I would probably not be with him. I believe that is an old, outdated way of thinking. Just my opinion

Catherine602

Any men reach their level of incompetence ? Gotta ask.

You seem to be looking at women only. Are their no men who are equally as incompetent? If you scrutinize one group with an eye towards comparison and evaluating you have to supply the same measure to both.

If you look at one group, you see their mistakes but you can't make any comparisons because you do not use equal scales. That is part and parcel of the scientific method. And for that matter fair and equatable evaluation of employees. You have to remove as much personal bias as possible.

People are biased we all are. We tend to see what we want to see by looking only in one direction and forgetting to apply the same standards to measure each performence it is human nature. I am human and so are you.

Nice discussion my husband is about to strangle me so I better go.

I am not generalizing I think you are.
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ComicBookLady

Just wanted to say I am in much the same position. I'm succeeding in a male dominated industry (comic books), but I am constantly pushed to the side when it comes to jobs because they don't think I can do it (even if I have new york times bestsellers under my belt) or think I'm not interested in the titles (even though I tell them I am) because of my gender. It's so difficult sometimes! But at the same time I am not mad at them, it drives me to find methods to change those ways of thinking.
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shy_guy

We were talking about women I thought, so that was my main focus.

Absolutely. It is very competitive, so people, even some pretty smart ones, sometimes get pressure to leave. I've been surprised a few times at who has announced they are leaving.

I've never called anyone "Incompetent" in this thread. I'm talking about very sharp people - some sharper than others.

Catherine, something you do with my words really bothers me. I try to set degrees, and you take those to extremes. If I say "some women," that is not saying "all women" and is not meant to imply anything about the men. It means exactly "some women," and does not imply anything more. The same would apply if I said "some men."

As far as naming who I work for, may I please be allowed to not answer that? I'm in an impossible position with that because if I don't answer it sounds like I'm lying, but I'm trying to maintain anonymity here so I can continue to post the way I do - especially in the "Sex in Marriage" forum. My wife is aware of what I post, and anonymity is very important to her as well. So since it is an impossible position I'm in, I'll just have to leave it up to you whether you want to believe that or not.